Who is the better player between Marner Matthews tavares

[authentic]

Lol well your 'thoughts' are wrong.

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I'm not saying Marner is only having this season because he's playing with Tavares, but the hype for the guy is out of control. Tavares is clearly (and I mean clearly) the primary play driver on his line. Wouldn't even consider Marner a top-3 play driver on this team, let alone the best.

You said they drive play 'far' better than him, that's just false. Marner is the main puck carrier on that line, turns the puck over less, takes it away more and is the better skater and stick handler. This is one case where watching every game will tell you who the better player is. Nylander is the best play driver on the team too, but he's not actually as good as the other 3

 

[GlitchMarner]

Lol well your 'thoughts' are wrong.

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I'm not saying Marner is only having this season because he's playing with Tavares, but the hype for the guy is out of control. Tavares is clearly (and I mean clearly) the primary play driver on his line. Wouldn't even consider Marner a top-3 play driver on this team, let alone the best.

What do the graphs illustrate exactly? I'm not familiar with RAPM.

 

[Morgs]

RAPM and other isolated metrics tend to underrate playmakers. marner is an elite playmaker as his A1 rate this year shows

Sure elite playmaker, but calling him one of the three best play drivers on our team is silly. I mean, look at the top-6 in the league at Primary Assists at Evens: Marner, Crosby, Panarin, McDavid, Huberdeau, and Kucherov. All but Huberdeau are widely known as elite playmakers as well. Of those guys, there's a legit argument he's the worst at driving play, and that includes Huberdeau..

Don't buy the excuse.

 

[Morgs]

What do the graphs illustrate exactly? I'm not familiar with RAPM.

RAPM is EvolvingWild's isolated play driving statistic. Essentially how many xG/CF do you create on your own/let up.

 

[Morgs]

You said they drive play 'far' better than him, that's just false. Marner is the main puck carrier on that line, turns the puck over less, takes it away more and is the better skater and stick handler. This is one case where watching every game will tell you who the better player is. Nylander is the best play driver on the team too, but he's not actually as good as the other 3

Analytically those features aren't considered "driving play" as driving is about generating chances by yourself. When it comes to the Leafs forwards though, Marner is one of the better ones, no question. He's just not in the same tier of chance generation as Tavares, Nylander, and Matthews. By xG RAPM, he's actually 6th on the team behind Hyman (yes, he's been that amazing) and Kapanen as well.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Maybe on the PP, but even that's far too much credit with all that talent.

Tavares and Matthews drive play far better than him.

"Play driving" seems like the wrong choice of phrase then for what you're going for, because most associate "play driving" with "guy who creates the chances", and I don't see how you can possibly think Tavares creates more chances than Marner when Marner's the guy who handles the puck the most on that line.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Sure elite playmaker, but calling him one of the three best play drivers on our team is silly. I mean, look at the top-6 in the league at Primary Assists at Evens: Marner, Crosby, Panarin, McDavid, Huberdeau, and Kucherov. All but Huberdeau are widely known as elite playmakers as well. Of those guys, there's a legit argument he's the worst at driving play, and that includes Huberdeau..

Don't buy the excuse.

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yeah but i think based on his play style a guy like marner creates more pre-shot movement than those other guys, which xg stats dont take into account rly

 

[authentic]

Analytically those features aren't considered "driving play" as driving is about generating chances by yourself. When it comes to the Leafs forwards though, Marner is one of the better ones, no question. He's just not in the same tier of chance generation as Tavares, Nylander, and Matthews. By xG RAPM, he's actually 6th on the team behind Hyman (yes, he's been that amazing) and Kapanen as well.

Oh okay, well at some point quality of chances have to come into play here, that's why I originally questioned the far better part, but w.e atleast we've got them all heading into the playoffs so here's to hoping we get past the 1st round.

 

[authentic]

"Play driving" seems like the wrong choice of phrase then for what you're going for, because most associate "play driving" with "guy who creates the chances", and I don't see how you can possibly think Tavares creates more chances than Marner when Marner's the guy who handles the puck the most on that line.

Honestly it does seem funny hearing that Tavares is a far better play driver than Marner having watched every Leafs game this season.

 

[Beyonder91]

Don't need analytics to see what Marner does on the ice. He is the best player on the ice more often than not.

 

[Mickey Marner]

"Play driving" seems like the wrong choice of phrase then for what you're going for, because most associate "play driving" with "guy who creates the chances", and I don't see how you can possibly think Tavares creates more chances than Marner when Marner's the guy who handles the puck the most on that line.

Agreed. Masquerading around an XG model that, at best, loosely correlates with wins at the macro level as play-driving at the micro level is silly.

Honestly it does seem funny hearing that Tavares is a far better play driver than Marner having watched every Leafs game this season.

A symptom of dying on the Nylander>Marner hill.

 

[Beyonder91]

Honestly it does seem funny hearing that Tavares is a far better play driver than Marner having watched every Leafs game this season.

Exactly. Don't always buy into the analytics hype...

 

[Beyonder91]

What do the graphs illustrate exactly? I'm not familiar with RAPM.

Just another attempt at turning hockey players into statistics. Eye test always comes before analytics.

 

[Notsince67]

Analytically those features aren't considered "driving play" as driving is about generating chances by yourself. When it comes to the Leafs forwards though, Marner is one of the better ones, no question. He's just not in the same tier of chance generation as Tavares, Nylander, and Matthews. By xG RAPM, he's actually 6th on the team behind Hyman (yes, he's been that amazing) and Kapanen as well.

You really need to stop this. Your history with player evaluation is abysmal. Primary points don't lie. A cursory glance at a few games will tell you how many sweet passes from him get missed above all the ones that get put in the net.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

"Play driving" seems like the wrong choice of phrase then for what you're going for, because most associate "play driving" with "guy who creates the chances", and I don't see how you can possibly think Tavares creates more chances than Marner when Marner's the guy who handles the puck the most on that line.

hes trying to use individual impact stats for play driving ability but those are definitely biased towards shooters/finishers as opposed to the top tier playmakers like marner

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Tavares, though I do see the argument for Marner. Tavares is the 1C, gets the tough matchups, 3rd in the NHL in goals. This season he was their best player. I would expect this to change as of next year.

If its Marner then the leafs cap is f***ED up.

 

[Morgs]

You really need to stop this. Your history with player evaluation is abysmal. Primary points don't lie. A cursory glance at a few games will tell you how many sweet passes from him get missed above all the ones that get put in the net.

My history with player evaluation? Aka you don't like the fact I call Marner overrated and Nylander underrated.

 

[Notsince67]

My history with player evaluation? Aka you don't like the fact I call Marner overrated and Nylander underrated.

You mean when you said Nylander is better than Marner?

 

[Morgs]

You mean when you said Nylander is better than Marner?

Well it was a fact during the 2017-18 season that he was the more valuable player, so ya.

 

[Notsince67]

Well it was a fact during the 2017-18 season that he was the more valuable player, so ya.

Ok. Nylander had less points and Marner despite playing with a #1 center. Marner had 1.13 pts per game after January combined with being the best leaf in the playoffs. But Nylander WAS better.

 

[Morgs]

Ok. Nylander had less points and Marner despite playing with a #1 center. Marner had 1.13 pts per game after January combined with being the best leaf in the playoffs. But Nylander WAS better.

Yup. More even strength points, more p1 5v5, better chance generation, better defensively, and much better GAR. But sure, keep going on with the "half a season" argument.

This season Marner has been much better, but we'll see going into next year.

 

[Smif]

Those saying Mitch AINEC

AM ppg 1.07
MM ppg 1.14

over a full season that is 5.74 points while getting 1.5 mins more in ice time (which is 120 mins over a season or about 5-6 games worth of ice time) and playing with JT and Hyman. Mitch has every advantage and is barely out scoring him. Basically you give Matthews Hyman back and he matches or exceeds Mitch. Give him another minute and a half and this isn't a conversation. Give Matthews a Tavares level player and Marner lovers would wonder what happened.

I know guys love their Marner but the facts just don't support it.....

The extra ice time Marner gets is all PK. 

 

[Pyrophorus]

Honestly it does seem funny hearing that Tavares is a far better play driver than Marner having watched every Leafs game this season.

Sidney the Kidney, recently said that Rielly sucks, now he's telling me that Marner does too.
Hmmmm....

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sidney the Kidney, recently said that Rielly sucks, now he's telling me that Marner does too.
Hmmmm....

What? Are you sure you're even reading my posts? You literally ascribed two comments to me I never made.

Like how in the hell do you get me saying "Marner sucks" from my posts in this thread when I've been the one calling him his line's play driver?

 

[HOPE]

if Marner was a 1st overall, it wouldn't be a question. Draft Pedigree is a real thing.