Who is the better defenseman: Del Zotto or Grossmann?

[Sawdalite]

I had heard this line of questioning and public singling out growing up in the USSR.

Since then it's rubbing me the wrong way. Sorry, but I feel that strongly about that.

My biggest appreciation of the US in the phrase:" I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Mods, anonymous polls should be allowed, so that folks do not feel like they are being feathered and tarred.

By the 'sarcasm' emoticon I had hoped people would understand I was joking... This joke originated with the announcing of the way to tell who voted for what... In all reality I believe that everybody should have their opinion and choice, not matter if it runs against the grain of popular -- or in this case mass -- opinion. I am not a Grossmann hater, but do believe that with everything considered MDZ is better for the Flyers needs and future... and has a better upside and potential. I do however believe that the Flyers need his type of D-man, as every team needs at least one, although I greatly wish his Cap Hit was much lower.

All that said... while it was in jest... I seriously (in a mild way) wouldn't mind hearing the rational behind voting for Grossmann over MDZ on that question... and if they decide to share it, I believe that this Thread would become interesting, where it now frankly is far from that.

If there is a feeling that I outed the trio... even though everybody has the ability to find out how people voted... and was given instructions before I made that post... if there is a belief by anyone on here, then I apologize to them.

With that... anybody want to share why they believe Grossmann is a better D-man than MDZ?

 

[Sawdalite]

From what I've seen of his posts, Sawdalite seems like a good guy and I'm sure he was just joking and messing around, but this is exactly what I was talking about. Ridiculing the minority opinion and making fun of posters that share it, because those that do so know that there's always the backing support of the majority. I'm someone who thinks people shouldn't get offended too easily and I'm not opposed to witty jabs, quality trolling and all that, but I also think this does drive people off or has them not expressing opinions that aren't popular here. Funnily enough, it was just a couple of days ago that I saw someone on reddit stating that they don't come here exactly because of the sometimes childish behaviour or discussions between people here. And I'm not saying people should be more politically correct or considerate or whatever, because that'd be fake and I hate that, but then just don't act as if that has no consequence on how the discussions turn out.

My last response and the quoted post crossed without my knowledge... if not my response may have read differently.

Yes, I was messing around on what was basically a dead and boring Thread that took the fancy of a very limited few... and I actually in my joking was not ridiculing because I wouldn't mind hearing some reasons why maybe Grossmann should have garnered more support -- if anything I was left-handedly ridiculing the fact that the ability was installed... kinda/sorta -- I suppose that after reading the two comments about my joking post, maybe I should have kept my joke to myself and moved on from this Thread.

Once again... if my kidding bothered anybody, they have my honest and sincere apology... If anyone wants to share why they supported Grossmann I would be interested, and if they'd rather not, I fully understand... AND... If any of the three Grossmann supporters mentioned has taken offense, they can call me out and I will personally apologize directly to them, for all to read.

#MadePoorDecisionOnASlowStormySaturdayEvening

 

[Ryker]

My last response and the quoted post crossed without my knowledge... if not my response may have read differently.

Yes, I was messing around on what was basically a dead and boring Thread that took the fancy of a very limited few... and I actually in my joking was not ridiculing because I wouldn't mind hearing some reasons why maybe Grossmann should have garnered more support -- if anything I was left-handedly ridiculing the fact that the ability was installed... kinda/sorta -- I suppose that after reading the two comments about my joking post, maybe I should have kept my joke to myself and moved on from this Thread.

Once again... if my kidding bothered anybody, they have my honest and sincere apology... If anyone wants to share why they supported Grossmann I would be interested, and if they'd rather not, I fully understand... AND... If any of the three Grossmann supporters mentioned has taken offense, they can call me out and I will personally apologize directly to them, for all to read.

#MadePoorDecisionOnASlowStormySaturdayEvening

As far as I'm concerned, you did right by not keeping your joke to yourself, it was not a poor decision on your part and those three shouldn't be offended by it. You should say whatever you want without overly worrying others will get their panties in a twist because of it. So, please, continue as you were.

But when several other people also make jokes aimed at those guys voting for Grossmann, hopefully you (and others) see that this could make them uncomfortable to elaborate on their opinion here, and also unwilling to share their honest opinion in the future. That's all I was saying, and that's also where my groupthink comment was rooted in.

 

[Sawdalite]

As far as I'm concerned, you did right by not keeping your joke to yourself, it was not a poor decision on your part and those three shouldn't be offended by it. You should say whatever you want without overly worrying others will get their panties in a twist because of it. So, please, continue as you were.

But when several other people also make jokes aimed at those guys voting for Grossmann, hopefully you (and others) see that this could make them uncomfortable to elaborate on their opinion here, and also unwilling to share their honest opinion in the future. That's all I was saying, and that's also where my groupthink comment was rooted in.

Thanks for that support, my friend.

I don't believe that I've ever read that 'groupthink' reasoning on here or anywhere else for that matter... with that I wasn't really following clearly on the discussion.

With that said... if you are saying that people are afraid... or maybe reluctant is a better term... to go against the flow/popular opinions, than I can see your point. It does seem that a person who speaks up with a counterpoint to what the popular opinion in postings is often met with a swarm of anti-posting... at yes, at time ridicule. Yes, I can honestly say that I have personally thought, 'why bother' when the townsfolk in Forums are wielding pitchforks, and don't bother... or don't continue when I have already posted unpopular opinions... That said, there have been quite a few times where I have butted heads without much support, if any support.

I also believe that there is often an 'everybody is saying that' mentality when it comes to ganging up players... For example, there seems to always be the need for Flyers Fans to have a scapegoat on the backline... and it seems that people jump on it and join in on the fun of razzing the player.

Also, I believe many a though to be 'given' is generally accepted as fact because it is drummed into their heads without much argument to the contrary... Think of the old saying about the squeaky wheel getting the grease.

 

[Ryker]

With that said... if you are saying that people are afraid... or maybe reluctant is a better term... to go against the flow/popular opinions, than I can see your point. It does seem that a person who speaks up with a counterpoint to what the popular opinion in postings is often met with a swarm of anti-posting... at yes, at time ridicule. Yes, I can honestly say that I have personally thought, 'why bother' when the townsfolk in Forums are wielding pitchforks, and don't bother... or don't continue when I have already posted unpopular opinions... That said, there have been quite a few times where I have butted heads without much support, if any support.

I also believe that there is often an 'everybody is saying that' mentality when it comes to ganging up players... For example, there seems to always be the need for Flyers Fans to have a scapegoat on the backline... and it seems that people jump on it and join in on the fun of razzing the player.

Also, I believe many a though to be 'given' is generally accepted as fact because it is drummed into their heads without much argument to the contrary... Think of the old saying about the squeaky wheel getting the grease.

Yup, that was exactly my point and I agree with everything you wrote. And there have been times where I have butted heads without any support, as well, but it gets tiring (because then later on in unrelated threads I also got accused of trying to be contrarian, even though I was just defending my opinion), so after a while you just stop, take a break from the boards, whatever. But how many people even go that far? I'd wager that most, especially those that haven't established themselves as regular posters here yet, won't engage in such battles and will instead try to avoid getting off on the wrong foot. And who do people in general like better, those that agree with them and their buddies or those that don't?

 

[Sawdalite]

Yup, that was exactly my point and I agree with everything you wrote. And there have been times where I have butted heads without any support, as well, but it gets tiring (because then later on in unrelated threads I also got accused of trying to be contrarian, even though I was just defending my opinion), so after a while you just stop, take a break from the boards, whatever. But how many people even go that far? I'd wager that most, especially those that haven't established themselves as regular posters here yet, won't engage in such battles and will instead try to avoid getting off on the wrong foot. And who do people in general like better, those that agree with them and their buddies or those that don't?

At the risk of sounding ironic... we are in agreement.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

MDZ by a ****ing mile.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I had heard this line of questioning and public singling out growing up in the USSR.

Since then it's rubbing me the wrong way. Sorry, but I feel that strongly about that.

My biggest appreciation of the US in the phrase:" I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Mods, anonymous polls should be allowed, so that folks do not feel like they are being feathered and tarred.

That saying doesn't originate from an American, it originates from Voltaire who was French. Albeit the fact that it's associated with the whole "land of the free" mantra.

Or at least as I remember.

 

[CSKA1974]

That saying doesn't originate from an American, it originates from Voltaire who was French. Albeit the fact that it's associated with the whole "land of the free" mantra.

Or at least as I remember.

You are correct about the origin of the phrase. But the USA has epitomized this phrase better than any other country in the world.

 

[CSKA1974]

My last response and the quoted post crossed without my knowledge... if not my response may have read differently.

Yes, I was messing around on what was basically a dead and boring Thread that took the fancy of a very limited few... and I actually in my joking was not ridiculing because I wouldn't mind hearing some reasons why maybe Grossmann should have garnered more support -- if anything I was left-handedly ridiculing the fact that the ability was installed... kinda/sorta -- I suppose that after reading the two comments about my joking post, maybe I should have kept my joke to myself and moved on from this Thread.

Once again... if my kidding bothered anybody, they have my honest and sincere apology... If anyone wants to share why they supported Grossmann I would be interested, and if they'd rather not, I fully understand... AND... If any of the three Grossmann supporters mentioned has taken offense, they can call me out and I will personally apologize directly to them, for all to read.

#MadePoorDecisionOnASlowStormySaturdayEvening

Man, don't sweat it. You are not in the wrong. It's a matter of discussion and an opinion. You stated your piece, I stated mine. Nothing more, nothing less.

#youropinionmatters

 

[sa cyred]

Eh I think there are group think on somethings, but others (like who we should take at #7) arent.

To me, if you support something, you need to back it up. Why does said player suck? Why is he going to be amazing? Why is player A better than B?

I totally respect opinions, but sometimes it's hard to argue with things when facts prove someone wrong. Like if Player A looked great using the eye test and killed it with the advanced stats, compared to player B where the one person says they they like B better "due to the eye test" it is really truely hard to argue with that person. And there are quite a few amount of people here that want to debate off of their personal eye test. Which is fine I guess... it just takes the conversation no where haha.

It is why I find a player like Zac Rinaldo horrible. Eye test and advanced stats prove it . You can like any player you want... doesnt make them better .

 

[Sawdalite]

Man, don't sweat it. You are not in the wrong. It's a matter of discussion and an opinion. You stated your piece, I stated mine. Nothing more, nothing less.

#youropinionmatters

Thanks for also clarifying your stance... and easing my mind. I guess I at times can get a tad paranoid on these Forums when I think a post of mine may have been stated in a manner I had not intended, or when a joke may have blown up in my face.

All is good now... and I'll move on with a clear conscience.

 

[Sawdalite]

Eh I think there are group think on somethings, but others (like who we should take at #7) arent.

To me, if you support something, you need to back it up. Why does said player suck? Why is he going to be amazing? Why is player A better than B?

I totally respect opinions, but sometimes it's hard to argue with things when facts prove someone wrong. Like if Player A looked great using the eye test and killed it with the advanced stats, compared to player B where the one person says they they like B better "due to the eye test" it is really truely hard to argue with that person. And there are quite a few amount of people here that want to debate off of their personal eye test. Which is fine I guess... it just takes the conversation no where haha.

It is why I find a player like Zac Rinaldo horrible. Eye test and advanced stats prove it . You can like any player you want... doesnt make them better .

The way I look at it is that an 'eye test' opinion stated as such, or alluded to as such, is fine and maybe it should just be left alone except for an opposing opinion... what I mean is that a full blown debate of stats versus gut feeling maybe should not occur.

So if I were to say, "I can't really explain it but I think player X is far better than he is showing and what other people are feeling... I just like the subtle signs I see and expect him to bounce back next Season"... maybe the response should be, "I can't see it and I base my feelings on the clear cut stats before me, such as yada, yada, yada"... and at that point the 'debate' probably should end.... I couldn't see me coming back and reiterating my gut feelings again unless I have more data to add to the discussion.

In that case I actually can see someone stating an opinion with little back up reasoning... and having it stand as a FWIW... and pretty much ignored with the Thread being filled with other back and forth postings. That said, I don't see where badgering or even bullying by ganging up on somebody really does any good... Let people give opinions without facts, read it and move on... In that case there can actually be more dissention and maybe a better cross section than if people cannot chime in or feel that they cannot without being taken to task to defend their opinion to the death Sometimes you just can't defend it well but still feel it and want to convey that feeling.

JMO