Speculation: Who is a must go and who is a must keep?

[Fivealive5]

I think the Flames can get away with a 1-2 year 'retool' given their current roster and depth chart. Clearly the current core doesn't have what it takes, but there is a version of this core that, given some key high and low end additions, can be a VERY different team.

I don't want to name players I think are a 'must go' in the OP and derail discussion, but I think at the very least the list of 'can go' players is as follow (in no way am I saying that ALL these guys have to go, and only including guys who are mainstays):

• Johnny Gaudreau
• Sean Monahan
• T.J. Brodie
• Mark Giordano
• Mark Jankowski
• Travis Hamonic

Guys who 'can go' but also 'can stay':

• Mikael Backlund
• Elias Lindholm
• Noah Hanifin
• Derek Ryan

Guys who should be a part of our new (but incomplete) core:

• Matt Tkachuk
• Rasmus Andersson
• Andrew Mangiapane
• Sam Bennett
• Dillon Dube
• Oliver Kylington
• Juuso Valimaki

I think given some smart trades with the guys in the 'can go' category (play maybe a T. Hall signing), we can be back with a rejuvinated core in 1-2 years. Give Chucky the C (Gio should do this on his own anyways), put some trust in Bennett as a C, develop the younger guys and see what Johnny/Monny/Gio/Brodie/the second category can land you.

Not touching goalies in this one lmao.

Click to read more...

 

[Mazatt]

No one should be a "must go". Every single guy should be available for a price--even Andersson and Tkachuk--and the Flames would be silly to force Gaudreau or Monahan out the door for suboptimal returns. I think everyone is in the 'can go' territory. Like, you could move lindholm, Gaudreau, Monahan, but you don't make trades looking to get rid of players. Burke once said "GM's aren't throwing out life perservers when you're drowning." This is a competition and making it clear you want Monahan or Gaudreau gone instantly decreases their value.

 

[Khrox]

Keep (unless serious overpay):
Tkachuk
Mangiapane
Dube
Andersson
Valimaki

Everyone else I'd listen to offers on. But you don't get rid of someone for the same of getting rid of someone. Hanifin and Lindholm you don't get rid of unless you get something equal in return. Someone like Gaudreau you always lose the trade on, so you make sure it's a loss that is acceptable (probably a 2nd-line player of a need, either a right shot C/RW or right shot D, a top prospect, and possibly a swap of 1sts giving us the higher first, or just straight up giving us a second). Monahan would be most likely a loss, but still a chance at slight overpay, depending on the team and their needs. But if it's a loss, it's still much closer than what Gaudreau's would be.

 

[joescores]

Trade Gaudreau

 

[Keneeyo Fato Boiyo]

Go

- Gaudreau
- Monahan
- Hanafin
- Hamonic
- Giordano
- Jankowski
- Rinaldo

Stay

- Tkachuk
- Bennett
- Dube
- Mangiapane( Although I don't see him remaining a top 6 forward)
- Andersson
- Valamaki
- Kylington
- Brodie

Anyone else I don't really care one way or the other. Basically if you can't perform in the games that matter the most then what use are you ultimately to the team.

Oh and one more Go would be the coach, I don't believe in Geoff Ward he wasn't terrible by any stretch of the imagination but it's time to stop taking risks with the head coach position and bring in someone with a proven winning pedigree. I also don't think the Flames style of play under Ward really suits their personnel and it is boring to watch.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Keep

Gaudreau
Tkachuk
Dube
Valimaki
Bennett
Backlund
Andersson

see the price tag for everyone else.

I know I’m in the minority but I also would explore a ton (even Tkachuk) for Stutzle because I think he will be an elite franchise calibre # 1C

 

[Nanuuk]

Silly thread.

 

[DCDM]

The number of people apparently ready to just give up on the most skilled guy on this team is alarming.

 

[HugginThePost]

The number of people apparently ready to just give up on the most skilled guy on this team is alarming.

Meh......he gave up first.

 

[DCDM]

Meh......he gave up first.

Did he though

 

[joescores]

Gio. He looked done. Get a cheeky first rounder if you can.

 

[HugginThePost]

Did he though

Yes, I do believe he did.

Something happened during the All Star Break in 2018, because since that point in time, he has given less than a half a shit.

Do you think he's giving his all? Do you think the league just figured him out all of a sudden?

I'll go the Occum's Razor path and assume that he doesn't want to be here because that's how he plays on a nightly basis.

 

[Anglesmith]

Yes, I do believe he did.

Something happened during the All Star Break in 2018, because since that point in time, he has given less than a half a shit.

Do you think he's giving his all? Do you think the league just figured him out all of a sudden?

I'll go the Occum's Razor path and assume that he doesn't want to be here because that's how he plays on a nightly basis.

Does this same analysis method also apply to the other Flames who go through rough stretches, or is it a unique Gaudreau thing?

Gaudreau's bad games never seem to be related to effort. They have to do with the team only giving him the puck in bad situations with consistency. When everyone is skating and his line gets to not play defence for their entire shift, he looks as good as ever.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Does this same analysis method also apply to the other Flames who go through rough stretches, or is it a unique Gaudreau thing?

Sean Monahan, and more often.

 

[Anglesmith]

Sean Monahan, and more often.

I've never once heard it suggested that Sean Monahan wants to go elsewhere.

 

[Keneeyo Fato Boiyo]

Does this same analysis method also apply to the other Flames who go through rough stretches, or is it a unique Gaudreau thing?

Gaudreau's bad games never seem to be related to effort. They have to do with the team only giving him the puck in bad situations with consistency. When everyone is skating and his line gets to not play defence for their entire shift, he looks as good as ever.

Just stop. Gaudreau has been doing a disappearing act for a few years now. Sure he racks up a bunch of points in the regular season but a lot of times those are secondary assists or are points/goals against weaker teams. In big time games in the regular season and playoffs Gaudreau has been completely non existent. And in the playoffs its the same story. The playoffs is when the team needs his scoring the most and he's just not been near good enough for a so called elite talent.

The reason for this is so blatantly obvious. Go back and watch his first couple of years in the league and you will see a player playing less scarred attempting to drive to the middle of the ice and into the slot to make dangerous plays and create high danger scoring chances. Since his first year in the playoffs he has completely gotten away from that. He's just content to be a perimeter type player who just accepts what a team gives him instead of actually growing some balls, taking some risks and get to where he needs to get to to be effective which is the slot. Every playoffs it's the same crap, cross the blue line " Oh no somebodies there they might hurt me, better just dump the puck or quickly back pass it for a turnover" , or just skate to the boards and get rubbed out, turn over the puck, or attempt to get it to Monahan who's equally as useless and can't play the cycle game whatsoever.

It's seriously embarrassing that our so called best player is getting outplayed by a rookie, Andrew Mangiapane and Sam Bennett. Time to move on.

 

[Anglesmith]

Just stop. Gaudreau has been doing a disappearing act for a few years now. Sure he racks up a bunch of points in the regular season but a lot of times those are secondary assists or are points/goals against weaker teams. In big time games in the regular season and playoffs Gaudreau has been completely non existent. And in the playoffs its the same story. The playoffs is when the team needs his scoring the most and he's just not been near good enough for a so called elite talent.

The reason for this is so blatantly obvious. Go back and watch his first couple of years in the league and you will see a player playing less scarred attempting to drive to the middle of the ice and into the slot to make dangerous plays and create high danger scoring chances. Since his first year in the playoffs he has completely gotten away from that. He's just content to be a perimeter type player who just accepts what a team gives him instead of actually growing some balls, taking some risks and get to where he needs to get to to be effective which is the slot. Every playoffs it's the same crap, cross the blue line " Oh no somebodies there they might hurt me, better just dump the puck or quickly back pass it for a turnover" , or just skate to the boards and get rubbed out, turn over the puck, or attempt to get it to Monahan who's equally as useless and can't play the cycle game whatsoever.

It's seriously embarrassing that our so called best player is getting outplayed by a rookie, Andrew Mangiapane and Sam Bennett. Time to move on.

Okay (not really okay, because I don't think that analysis of Gaudreau's game is accurate), but why not complete the list of players who have been outplayed by those guys in the playoffs these last few years. Are we getting rid of Tkachuk, too?

Maybe address the problem with the team instead of removing the talent and then being surprisedpikachu when things get worse.

 

[HugginThePost]

Does this same analysis method also apply to the other Flames who go through rough stretches, or is it a unique Gaudreau thing?

Gaudreau's bad games never seem to be related to effort. They have to do with the team only giving him the puck in bad situations with consistency. When everyone is skating and his line gets to not play defence for their entire shift, he looks as good as ever.

Rough stretch?? It's been two years....we've gone far beyond a rough stretch!

Johnny is a hell of a talent, I will never deny that, I'm a huge fan. But he has consistently shown that he wilts in big games. This is both in regular season and playoffs. That can't happen to your best player. I'm tired of people using his size as an excuse. PLayers like Yamamoto are the same size and that kid will go through a brick wall to get a puck.

As far as him being great as long as has his line doesn't have to play defense....what does that even mean?? AS long as he gets room and doesn't need to worry about being responsible defensively he's great? Okay? So, as long as we play Oiler hockey he'll accel?

And yes, this does apply to any player that has shown to not be willing to go to the tough areas....I'm looking at you, Sean.

The team as a whole, minus a few players, wants to play a perimeter game. Don't have the fortitude to get to the dirty areas. Stay to the outside and look for a pretty passing play. You don't win games that way. Especially in the playoffs.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Rough stretch?? It's been two years....we've gone far beyond a rough stretch!

Johnny is a hell of a talent, I will never deny that, I'm a huge fan. But he has consistently shown that he wilts in big games. This is both in regular season and playoffs. That can't happen to your best player. I'm tired of people using his size as an excuse. PLayers like Yamamoto are the same size and that kid will go through a brick wall to get a puck.

As far as him being great as long as has his line doesn't have to play defense....what does that even mean?? AS long as he gets room and doesn't need to worry about being responsible defensively he's great? Okay? So, as long as we play Oiler hockey he'll accel?

And yes, this does apply to any player that has shown to not be willing to go to the tough areas....I'm looking at you, Sean.

The team as a whole, minus a few players, wants to play a perimeter game. Don't have the fortitude to get to the dirty areas. Stay to the outside and look for a pretty passing play. You don't win games that way. Especially in the playoffs.

You realize he had 99 points last season right? Like, only more than a calendar year because of Covid.

Guess we should have moved Iggy after the 2009-10 season cause he only put up 69 points.

 

[Anglesmith]

Rough stretch?? It's been two years....we've gone far beyond a rough stretch!

Johnny is a hell of a talent, I will never deny that, I'm a huge fan. But he has consistently shown that he wilts in big games. This is both in regular season and playoffs. That can't happen to your best player. I'm tired of people using his size as an excuse. PLayers like Yamamoto are the same size and that kid will go through a brick wall to get a puck.

As far as him being great as long as has his line doesn't have to play defense....what does that even mean?? AS long as he gets room and doesn't need to worry about being responsible defensively he's great? Okay? So, as long as we play Oiler hockey he'll accel?

And yes, this does apply to any player that has shown to not be willing to go to the tough areas....I'm looking at you, Sean.

The team as a whole, minus a few players, wants to play a perimeter game. Don't have the fortitude to get to the dirty areas. Stay to the outside and look for a pretty passing play. You don't win games that way. Especially in the playoffs.

Again, as I've been pointing out since the Dallas series, the idea that Gaudreau's play as an individual gets worse when the importance of the game increases is simply inaccurate and lazy. Look at his play in the biggest game of our season this year. Notice that as soon as the team made the conscious effort to attack as a unit and play around transition hockey, Gaudreau was back to looking like an All-Star. The real variable here is what positions Gaudreau is being put in by the team. Is his role to lead the rush and make the key pass in the offensive zone? Or is his role to receive an outlet 1-on-4 and dump it in from the red line? He can do either effectively, but one of them makes people complain no matter how well he does it.

You're certainly not wrong that Gaudreau is a perimeter player, but you can absolutely still win with that as long as they are supported correctly. My point all along is that we can win by playing the type of hockey we played in Game 6 more consistently. Trying to play our game from the rest of the series but with worse players is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Body Checker]

Again, as I've been pointing out since the Dallas series, the idea that Gaudreau's play as an individual gets worse when the importance of the game increases is simply inaccurate and lazy. Look at his play in the biggest game of our season this year. Notice that as soon as the team made the conscious effort to attack as a unit and play around transition hockey, Gaudreau was back to looking like an All-Star. The real variable here is what positions Gaudreau is being put in by the team. Is his role to lead the rush and make the key pass in the offensive zone? Or is his role to receive an outlet 1-on-4 and dump it in from the red line? He can do either effectively, but one of them makes people complain no matter how well he does it.

You're certainly not wrong that Gaudreau is a perimeter player, but you can absolutely still win with that as long as they are supported correctly. My point all along is that we can win by playing the type of hockey we played in Game 6 more consistently. Trying to play our game from the rest of the series but with worse players is a recipe for disaster.

I could get behind the common narrative that adding to our core is the way to go, I.e keep Johnny and Mony and add Toffoli and Hoffman as an example but there’s something called the cap and other holes in goal and on defence. To add to the core at least one of our 6 mil guys has to go.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

To add to the core at least one of our 6 mil guys has to go.

Sort of, but not really. Just depends how Tre decides to divy up our cap space.

We have just shy of 17 million in space, but we need to allocate some of that to Mangi, defense and goaltending, and at least league minimum to fill out roster spots. Just a question of how much. Depends heavily on if how much Brodie/Talbot get, if anything vs trade acquisitions, etc.

 

[HugginThePost]

You realize he had 99 points last season right? Like, only more than a calendar year because of Covid.

Guess we should have moved Iggy after the 2009-10 season cause he only put up 69 points.

And how many since the All Star break in 2018?

Or are you going to claim that we are seeing the same Johnny as we did from early 2018?

When Iggy wasn't scoring, he brought other aspects to the game.....like actually back checking, hitting, fighting....you know hockey stuff.

 

[HugginThePost]

Again, as I've been pointing out since the Dallas series, the idea that Gaudreau's play as an individual gets worse when the importance of the game increases is simply inaccurate and lazy. Look at his play in the biggest game of our season this year. Notice that as soon as the team made the conscious effort to attack as a unit and play around transition hockey, Gaudreau was back to looking like an All-Star. The real variable here is what positions Gaudreau is being put in by the team. Is his role to lead the rush and make the key pass in the offensive zone? Or is his role to receive an outlet 1-on-4 and dump it in from the red line? He can do either effectively, but one of them makes people complain no matter how well he does it.

You're certainly not wrong that Gaudreau is a perimeter player, but you can absolutely still win with that as long as they are supported correctly. My point all along is that we can win by playing the type of hockey we played in Game 6 more consistently. Trying to play our game from the rest of the series but with worse players is a recipe for disaster.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but how do we get those pieces to "compliment" Johnny? We have no cap room for the pieces required. We need a #1C, we've needed a #1C since, well, forever! But those come at a cost. Sean isn't that guy and Sean doesn't get you that guy unless you package him up with picks and one of the young D's.

I've been a huge Johnny fan since the day he donned the Flaming C, but we have seen on several occasions that this core cannot get it done when it matters most. It's like going back in time and watching Iggy's talents get wasted because they would never give him a true #1C. We have been, are, and will continue to be a middling team unless major changes are made.

I'm all for another coach, but we are quickly becoming as bad as our neighbors to the North. We keep rolling through coaches with the same result.

As I said, we are the Flames of old....."let's give them one more year"! Except the big difference is that Johnny isn't going to stick around out of a sense of honor, he's going to bolt to a better team in the East. And how could you blame him? I'd do the same thing.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

And how many since the All Star break in 2018?

Or are you going to claim that we are seeing the same Johnny as we did from early 2018?

When Iggy wasn't scoring, he brought other aspects to the game.....like actually back checking, hitting, fighting....you know hockey stuff.

Which would still be a year and a half realistically, but I digress cause I'm not gonna go fish out the numbers.