Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Golden Ducky, Nov 4, 2004.
Who here loved the Winnipeg Jets?
Here is a website all about the Winnipeg Jets
Who didn't love the Winnipeg Jets? *Bettman*I know i loved the Jets, NHL should've protected the Jets and helped them out.
I did not love them but more felt sorry for them since they were the best divsional third place team in probably the history of sports, or close to it, I would like to see what they could have done if they never had to face the Oil or the Flames as much as they had too.
the people of Winnipeg, where the Jets were only above the average attendance level league wide twice.
And I thought it was my torch only to bear. Winnipeg is a hockey town.
BUT....Winnipeg doesn't have the population or economic climate to have an NHL team.
I lived in Winnipeg, grew up in Kenora and think that as a place to live, Winnipeg is AWESOME.(Aside from what Mac would tell ya.... ,)
From a hockey standpoint, they are just not NHL material.
I remember watching CBC Newsworld a couple months ago.
Bettman: "I was extremely dissapointed to see the NHL leave Winnipeg."
Bettman then went on to say that he loves a good pierogie.
I've always liked Winnipeg, and I wish that the NHL was the sort of league that had a franchise there. I wish the same for Quebec and maybe Hamilton and Halifax. It isn't that kind of league though. The revenue required to support this type of business just isn't there. It's funny to see comments about fans supporting teams, esp. from Mtl. and Toronto where corporations have always supported the teams. I'd hazard a guess that if a study could indicate what percentage of Joe Hockey Fans actually spend the money in each city as opposed to exp. acct. money, you'd applaud the Ottawa's and Winnipeg's. I'm as big a fan as there is but my support consists of paying my Bell Exp.Vu every month.
BTW have you Winnipegers forgiven Fergy for making Jimmy Mann a first rounder yet ?
interesting, however it will probably better serve your statement if you actually peruse the stats you provide to back up your comments.
in the jets 17 year NHL history, they drew more than the NHL average five time, not two as you suggest.
further, winnipeg's problems were the arena and management's ineptitude, not the fans.
winnipeg arena realistically only had about 13,000 seats that provided a decent view of the rink and considering the jets were only .500 or better in six of their seventeen seasons, the support the team received is pretty impressive in my opinion.
as other teams built new facilities, their attendance went up, but winnipeg's inability to build a new arena was the downfall of the team.
by the stats provided above, winnipeg actually outdrew original six teams ... 9 times ! and winnipeg fans didn't care about the team ?
I loved the Jets. But I didn't LOVE them. As a Canucks fan, especially in the early 90's (Even though I was too young to remember), I love to HATE them. But it's not like the Leafs whereas I hated them with a passion. It was all out of love, it was such a great rivalry and I use to always look forward to when Winnipeg would face off aaginst Vancouver at 7:00 on a Saturday evening.
And they didn't draw above League Average attendance after their first five years of existence. That would mean 12 years in a row.
Ticket prices and economics now even with a $31 million dollar salary cap still are out of the realm of possibilities for Winnipeg. It is a pipe dream by die hards, nothing more.
Winnipeg was under the average attendance the last 12 years of the Jets' existence
They couldn't survive during a more friendly economic environment, there's no way they could now. Winnipeg is an American Hockey League city. It is minor league town
The years that they were over the listed average attendance, many teams do not have numbers listed.
The only number that means anything when it comes to Winnipeg is 3.4. You know what that means.
Good idea to stick to topic. There are obviously a few dedicated hockey fans that would like to see the Winnipeg Jets return to the NHL. Conventional thinking would say it is a bad idea because the "facts" don't support it as being a good idea. When a full market study after the new CBA is done, then prove how a city with a history of approximately 11 000 people in a 15 000 seat arena (And if you want the caveat that only 13 000 were actually good seats, they didn't sell out a 13000 seat arena).
There is no executive in their right mind that would admit a small market team to the NHL when....
1. They are more likely to be talking contraction than expansion or moving a team.
2. The city is a small market that will require league/big market assistance from the get go.
It makes zero sense. As a businessman myself, I wouldn't invest a dime in Winnipeg. And again, to show a lack of bias against small markets, I would go to Quebec City 100 times before Winnipeg.
Few being the key word, but sadly the average IQ of the business men who would bring the NHL to Winnipeg would be about 3.4 (where have I heard that # before?)
Quebec city supported their team, even through the lean years. They were only below league average 3 times. It was a shame they lost their team just when it was about to win a cup.
And here's why: The city of Winnipeg should worry about spending money getting their crime under control and supporting their American Hockey League franchise (for which they just built a new facility) Money should be spent pursuing an environment that is safe for their citizens not a pipe dream.
My posts until you arrived to degenerate this thread were all on topic.
The crime rate has nothing to do with a city supporting a hockey team. As for your second point, the MTS Centre was built mainly to compete with Fargo and Grand Forks, ND (two cities that have built state-of-the-art facilities in the last few years) for concerts, and other attractions. True, the Moose will play there, but it was not the reason Winnipeg built the arena.
Knock it off with the personal attacks and dragging private disputes onto the boards. Any further incidents in this thread will result in a ban.
Fargo and Grand Forks? Minor League towns that Winnipeg can compete with. Good for them for realizing they should aim lower.
interesting comments, however i disagree with your assessment that winnipeg had a history of 11,000 fans per game. winnipeg averaged almost 13,000 fans per game.
further, NHL economics have indeed changed since the Jets left in '96. with the new arena, a potential franchise would now have access to revenues such as:
internet revenues (banner ads, licensing fees, sponsorship)
arena novelty revenue
signage (in ice, building naming rights, scoreboard, zamboni, concourse)
pay per view revenues
arena revenues from non hockey events (concerts etc.)
these revenues weren't available to the Jets back then. While Winnipeg will never generate advertising revenues equivalent to the upper third of the league, it will in my opinion definitely generate more, if not comparable revenues, than Phoenix, Pittsburgh, Florida, Carolina, and Nashville post-lockout.
whether an NHL franchise is feasible in Winnipeg is definitely open to debate ( although i believe it will be, with a maximum US$ 35 million salary cap). although this is the question for several NHL franchises as well right now.
the real question for me is post lockout, what will be the economic situation of several US markets such as Carolina, Tampa, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Phoenix etc. ? Will the owners of these franchises fold their franchises if these markets fail, or will one take a chance on another market ?
If one did, i truly feel Winnipeg is as good a choice as any other.
to respond to your second comment, winnipeg is a small market. that is fact. however, the NHL is definitely #1 here, and there are no other major league franchises to draw revenues/fans away.
It is my opinion that Winnipeg is indeed a far more suitable city for an NHL franchise than cities that already have the NFL, MLB and NBA to compete with ie. Tampa, Pittsburgh, Phoenix.
"conventional thinking" such as that used by the NHL in placing teams in markets such as Phoenix and Tampa Bay has proven to be a failure.
imo, the true measue of a market's feasibility, for a unique product such as the NHL, has to be measured in total fan base, not total population. It is here that Winnipeg has the competitive advantage with some of these US teams.
good discussion !
Actually Fargo and Grand Forks are AMERICAN cities. What this means essentially is that people from a 500 mile radius will go and see acts that tour the two cities. america has a much larger population base to draw from, not to mention the strength of the US Dollar, and the superior infrastructure, which make it easy for people in Duluth, South Dakota, etc. to drive 5 hours to see concerts and events.
Case in point: Green Bay Packers. The Population of Green Bay, WI is similiar to Fargo. The difference being that there are 5,000,000 people in the surrounding area. that is why Lambeau Field is packed with 70,000+ fans for every NFL game.
Are you disputing the numbers provided with regards to Winnipeg's attendance figures? Can you back up the 13000 number you suggest was the actual number?
Tampa seems to be doing just fine vs their major league competition. They had better attendance figures than Winnipeg every year they were both in the league, save 1. They have also won a cup, which requires 4 playoff series wins in 1 year.
over the jets 17 years in the nhl, they averaged 13,004 fans per game, from the figures you yourself provided.
as far as tampa, i question the viabilty of the tampa market post-lockout. tampa was basically giving away tickets when they played out of the 28,000 seat arena.
NHL Attendance History
I think the Jets averaged around 13,200 for the 17 years they were in the NHL. Not bad for a team that was mediocre at best.
We could have easily beat out Tampa in terms of attendance if we sold tickets for $7 a game. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Tampa selling Stanley Cup Final tickets for that same price? I also read that game 7 was not sold out until the afternoon of the game. Can you honestly say that would happen if a Winnipeg-based team reached the final?
Your right a city like Phoenix always had a hard time keeping all seats occupied in all 4 major league sports facilities; imo the 'yotes will dissapear from there new venue and the suns will move there.
On a sports radio the other day, the play-by-play announcer of the carolina hurricanes says the media and people in that city are not paying much atttention to the lockout in other words they don't care. Its a football and university basketball city, case and point. So when the shake down of the post lockout arrives, the south eastern coast teams like carolina will fold, merge, or relocate whichever the case may be. You will definately see Winnipeg in the mix of the new NHL. It is in the best interrest of the NHL to keep all canadian teams in the NHL, thats why they want a salary cap.
Whenever the AHL Moose hold a Jets tribute game there atttendance skyrockets to a sell out. All you see Jets gear not Moose ... In turn you get that special atmosphere like chants and a 5 min wave around the arena.
And you know what one we are one of the most knowledgble hockey fans unlike the south east coast, which means we are red white and blue, true hockey fans with a great fan base and the market is definatly there. Even people in the Hockey world will concur. Just ask Ron Mclean, Don Cherry, John Ferguson, Teemu Selanne, Bill Watters, Eddie Olczyk, Thomas Steen, Management of the Edmonton Oilers, Flames,and Wild, Bobby Hull the list goes on and on.
It was a shame that we lost the Jets I believe if we would of kept Teemu and signed a couple free agents we would of been a force to be reckon with. I remember in the finals years that we were about to get Jeremy Roenick, reaquire Hawerchuck and a steady D homeboy from Wpg, James Patrick. But a lack of modern arena and crappy management within the Jets organisation and arena management, was in consequence the demise of the Jets. When the wpg arena was expanded from 10, 700 to 15, 500, There were about 2000 obstructed views. These were called the nosebleed section, all you could see was the rafters. In turn it resulted in alot of unsatisfied paying customers.
"The wpg arena (old barn) was built in 1955 and in 1979 the arena expanded. As Balconies on the east and west sides added spinbusters, with the south side expanded upward to house another 1,200, transforming that end of the arena bowl to a slope similar to that of Myan paramids of Chichen Itza. There were now 15, 500 red and blue seats (painted blue to mimic the sky above, which is essentially where you were sitting if your ticket was up there)."
source wpg sun
Bye the way Winnipeg had a farewell to the old Winnipeg Arena, last night.
According to jetsowner.com, the farewell didn't go very well.
actually the ceremony was great.
it's the hockey that sucked !
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