Who belongs in HHOF but isn't there?

[brianscot]

& what makes Cam Neely substantially better than Middleton? Middleton had 5 straight 40-goal, 90-point seasons [including two 50-goal, 100-point seasons], plus had that incredible playoff run in 83 [33 points in 19 games], feats that Neely was never able to accomplish. He beats out Neely in career PPG [.98 to .96], he was arguably better defensively, & he was equally adept playing center & wing.

I don't think Middleton should be in, but Neely really lowered the bar, meaning that if Neely [& Mike Gartner] is in, guys like Middleton, Propp & Wilson should also be in.

As a life long Bruins fan, I can say with great confidence that Rick Middleton was a better all around player than Cam Neely. Then again, since the entire Bruins organization has snubbed Middleton in never retiring his number (and boy do they love to retire numbers) it's not suprising that he hasn't made the HOF.

Middleton had incredible anticipation and hockey sense which made him a great penalty killer. You can play with numbers and substantiate most things, but during his peak 7 seasons, only Gretzky, Bossy, and Dionne scored more goals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHquB8KYU8k

His shot couldn't break a window pane and he wasn't a fast skater in the Lafleur sense, but outside of Mario, it's hard to think of a better one on one player. Middleton's straight ahead speed was incredibly ordinary, but he would slip and slide laterally and actually slow down the play before using his great hand skills to roof one.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

As a life long Bruins fan, I can say with great confidence that Rick Middleton was a better all around player than Cam Neely. Then again, since the entire Bruins organization has snubbed Middleton in never retiring his number (and boy do they love to retire numbers) it's not suprising that he hasn't made the HOF.

Middleton had incredible anticipation and hockey sense which made him a great penalty killer. You can play with numbers and substantiate most things, but during his peak 7 seasons, only Gretzky, Bossy, and Dionne scored more goals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHquB8KYU8k

His shot couldn't break a window pane and he wasn't a fast skater in the Lafleur sense, but outside of Mario, it's hard to think of a better one on one player. Middleton's straight ahead speed was incredibly ordinary, but he would slip and slide laterally and actually slow down the play before using his great hand skills to roof one.

"Nifty", they called him and for good reason. Real quiet player in the sense that he was so fluid, like Coffey skating. But also, quiet because you didn't notice him sometimes and then next thing you know he's in the right spot putting the puck in the net. Some probably don't know this but he was in on all 4 Bruins goals in game 7 of the SF in 1979. Highest scorer in that game. Anybody really take notice with all the drama in that game? I think he deserves to be in, but again he is being overlooked.

 

[90sKid*]

Lindros - not because of his stats... He is just a legendary player (not his biggest fan lol). I'm pretty sure he will get in before 2019...just a feeling!

 

[Dissonance]

Agreed on everything written above about Rick Middleton. He's a guy I remember as being a lot better than his stats suggest--I assume this is how older fans feel about Gilbert Perreault.

During his peak in the early 1980s, Middleton was a star and one of the best all-around forwards in the league. Top-10 goal scorer, fantastic forechecker, elite penalty killer, on the ice consistently in the last five minutes of any game. He was an important forward in the 1984 Canada Cup. And that Middleton-Pederson-Krushelnyski line was jaw-dropping against Buffalo in the '83 playoffs.

Middleton's also a guy who actually earned his Lady Byng by playing a tough game while rarely taking penalties. He just never seemed to lose his focus or discipline no matter how tired he got.

Unfortunately he'll probably never get in to the HHOF because his peak wasn't quite long enough. He was a soft, one-way player who was more interested in partying than hockey in his first few seasons before Don Cherry toughened him up. And then he went downhill pretty quickly after a puck fractured his skull in 1986.

If he'd been able to crack 500 goals or 1,000 points he'd have a shot at squeezing in. As it is, he'll probably fade in people's memories over time.

 

[Andy6]

It annoys me no end that André Lacroix is never mentioned despite being the all-time scoring leader in the WHA and a truly skilled and creative hockey player in his day. He did all he did with mediocre teams and average linemates that he made look great. His peak years weren't in the NHL, which may be all that matters now that the HHOF is a branch of the NHL Inc. marketing machine, but you'd think the anti-WHA bitterness would have worn off by now.

 

[Killion]

It annoys me no end that André Lacroix is never mentioned despite being the all-time scoring leader in the WHA and a truly skilled and creative hockey player in his day. He did all he did with mediocre teams and average linemates that he made look great. His peak years weren't in the NHL, which may be all that matters now that the HHOF is a branch of the NHL Inc. marketing machine, but you'd think the anti-WHA bitterness would have worn off by now.

Oh ya, he has been mentioned & discussed here on the HOH Board. Couple of threads buried somewhere back in the archives, "Top Center" projects etc and certainly worthy of discussion & consideration.... wasnt Drafted out of Junior with Peterborough despite scoring 85G's & chalking up 154A's in just 97 Games due primarily to his rather diminutive size (5'8"). He signed with the Quebec Aces which the Flyers had purchased giving them a decidedly french flavor for the first few years of their existence, Lacroix having 3 - 20+ goal seasons and developing into a fan favorite however, the Flyers were getting manhandled and so Snider demanded they get bigger/tougher and with Bobby Clarke, Bill Clement, Ed Joyal, Michel Parizeau & a young Rick MacLeish on the way Lacroix was considered expendable.

Traded to Chicago for size in one Rick Foley who only played a handful of NHL games, spending most of his career in the minors. So essentially, Philly got nothin for what was a tremendously talented albeit smallish player who had he been playing for the Habs or any other number of teams, just mightve turned the league on its ear. In Chicago he was behind 5 or 6 guys, no hope really, bombed pretty much so when the Blazers of the WHA came calling, he was gone. Tenure in Philadelphia short-lived, winding up with New York / New Jersey, then San Diego I believe. 3X WHA All Star, had 100Pts' or more in 6 consecutive seasons, 2X's lead the league in goals & ranks 4th on the WHA's All Time Goal Scoring Charts. All Star pick in the 74 Summit Series as well if Im not mistaken. Did return to the NHL with Hartford though played sparingly in his final season.

As for an amalgamation of the now existing WHA Hall of Fame & the HHOF, I unfortunately think that that ship has sailed. What the HHOF should have done and based on your comments it looks like we agree was to have done precisely that back in 79/80 when the Oilers, Jets, Nordiques & Whalers joined the league. There are players & builders along with referee's & off ice officials, media personnel who should be recognized & inducted (Lacroix included), brought on-board & on-side. Seems only fair, right & just as the WHA did fare extremely well in exhibition games against the NHL, a great many players both former & post WHA notable NHL'rs and or individuals who's contributions or performances on ice should be honored. If their going to admit International Players & Builders along with Women I really dont see how they can justify almost completely ignoring the WHA but for a display case or two full of jerseys & sticks, souvenir programs & the like. Seriously, I think the HHOF should sit down with itself & decide its Mission Statement once & for all. Is it the NHL HHOF? If so, then guys like Tarasov & Ahearne have no business being in it, nor do women. Or is it the "Hockey Hall of Fame" as in all encompassing excluding Minor Pro?

 

[Beef Invictus]

What are the thoughts on John LeClair?

He was a favorite of mine as a kid and I would love to see him go in, but I don't know that he has the career to make it, unless a lot of others in waiting are taken care of and there's a weak year. He has six straight years of really good goal scoring but that's about it.

 

[Andy6]

Seriously, I think the HHOF should sit down with itself & decide its Mission Statement once & for all. Is it the NHL HHOF? If so, then guys like Tarasov & Ahearne have no business being in it, nor do women. Or is it the "Hockey Hall of Fame" as in all encompassing excluding Minor Pro?

Thanks. I don't study this actively, but thinking back to those days Lacroix was a player that was always exciting to see. I recall he had a 35 (?) game point scoring streak once, which I think was the highest to that point in either league. While in the first two WHA seasons it was relatively easy to rack up points, and players like Danny Lawson and Ron Ward scored far more than they ever had before, after that play tightened up and the quality rose to be equal to the middle range of the NHL for the most part (and equal to the upper echelon of the NHL when it came to the Aeros, Jets and sometimes Nordiques). And through all that, unlike Ward, Lawson and others, Lacroix kept up with the 100 point seasons.

This makes me try to think of the best "primarily" WHA players (players whose WHA career constituted a substantial majority of their overall careers, particularly considering their peak years). Off the top of my head, without looking anything up, the ones that stick out in my mind (almost 35 years later!) are:

André Lacroix F
Réal Cloutier F
Ulf Nilsson F
Anders Hedberg F
Larry Lund F
Frank Hughes F
Ron Grahame G
Paul Shmyr D
Lars-Erik Sjoberg D
Kevin Morrison D

I would say that of all of them, Lacroix would be the most serious HHOF candidate, with Cloutier (who was spectacular in the WHA) being the other reasonably convincing contender.

 

[Killion]

^^^ In addition to this www.whahof.com site the US HHOF has a permanent display with rotating exhibits, the largest of its kind in paying to tribute to the WHA & its players. Interesting site & structure etc....

 

[Big Phil]

What are the thoughts on John LeClair?

He was a favorite of mine as a kid and I would love to see him go in, but I don't know that he has the career to make it, unless a lot of others in waiting are taken care of and there's a weak year. He has six straight years of really good goal scoring but that's about it.

I can't see him in there. Had too short of a peak, was a late bloomer and didn't age very well, but had injuries later on. Many people still assume he is a product of Lindros, although Leclair was a fine player in his own right. Power forwards usually take a longer time to reach their peak (Shanahan, Esposito, Bertuzzi, Thornton). But despite the memory of him in the 1993 playoffs with those overtime goals, the truth is he wasn't a great playoff performer. And when you look at his career numbers they just don't fit and are not as overwhelming as you might think.

As for Middleton and his "niftiness" I agree completely. If you just isolate a player to how he performed one-on-one there were few better than him. Mario of course and I would suggest Jagr in his Penguin days. After that you're looking maybe at Savard as someone better in that situation, but certainly not many. Let's not forget that he was on some great Cupless teams, had a wonderful run in 1983 and played a great two-way game. Is the lack of seeing him lift the Cup over his head the sole reason he's out?

 

[Killion]

As for Middleton and his "niftiness" I agree completely. Is the lack of seeing him lift the Cup over his head the sole reason he's out?

I believe so, ya. "Nifty" absolutely belongs in the HHOF... in fact, a couple of 10 year old threads here on that very subject. The majority of posters then believing his absence an omission that should be corrected.

 

[double5son10]

This makes me try to think of the best "primarily" WHA players (players whose WHA career constituted a substantial majority of their overall careers, particularly considering their peak years). Off the top of my head, without looking anything up, the ones that stick out in my mind (almost 35 years later!) are:

André Lacroix F
Réal Cloutier F
Ulf Nilsson F
Anders Hedberg F
Larry Lund F
Frank Hughes F
Ron Grahame G
Paul Shmyr D
Lars-Erik Sjoberg D
Kevin Morrison D

I would say that of all of them, Lacroix would be the most serious HHOF candidate, with Cloutier (who was spectacular in the WHA) being the other reasonably convincing contender.

No love for Tardiff? Leading goal-scorer in WHA history. Twice led that league in goals, assists and points. He was no slouch in the NHL either, never scoring fewer than 19 goals in a season (his rookie year), including seasons of 31, 33 & 39 goals, and was the Nords first captain when they joined the NHL. Over 500 goals and 1000 points combined between the two leagues. Also survived arguably the most famous on-ice assault this side of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident. If WHA careers were considered for the HHOF he'd be in.

 

[Killion]

^^^ Indeed. The Rick Jodzio incident. Tardiff nailed from behind by Jodzio with his stick, intent to injure, knocking Marc out cold before he even hit the ice, then jumps on him and continues to flail away. Brain damage amongst other injuries & lucky to be alive. Wound up suing Jodzio for about $200,000 & missed playing for Canada in the Summit Series.... recovered fortunately.... and a bit of a shocker really when he jumped to the WHA however, the Los Angeles Sharks offered him $350,000 whereas with the Habs he was making $40K. Fan favorite in Montreal, dynamic, exciting player; later with the Nordiques when they returned to the NHL, his Number 8 retired by the club.

 

[Andy6]

No love for Tardiff? Leading goal-scorer in WHA history. Twice led that league in goals, assists and points. He was no slouch in the NHL either, never scoring fewer than 19 goals in a season (his rookie year), including seasons of 31, 33 & 39 goals, and was the Nords first captain when they joined the NHL. Over 500 goals and 1000 points combined between the two leagues. Also survived arguably the most famous on-ice assault this side of the Bertuzzi-Moore incident. If WHA careers were considered for the HHOF he'd be in.

Sorry, I was just thinking I should go back and add Marc Tardif -- I was really just winging my list off the top of my head. Great player, class act. Likely the greatest Michigan Stag of all time. Might have played a bit too much in the NHL to meet the criterion of my original list, though, but I'm not sure.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I can't see him in there. Had too short of a peak, was a late bloomer and didn't age very well, but had injuries later on. Many people still assume he is a product of Lindros, although Leclair was a fine player in his own right. Power forwards usually take a longer time to reach their peak (Shanahan, Esposito, Bertuzzi, Thornton). But despite the memory of him in the 1993 playoffs with those overtime goals, the truth is he wasn't a great playoff performer. And when you look at his career numbers they just don't fit and are not as overwhelming as you might think.

As for Middleton and his "niftiness" I agree completely. If you just isolate a player to how he performed one-on-one there were few better than him. Mario of course and I would suggest Jagr in his Penguin days. After that you're looking maybe at Savard as someone better in that situation, but certainly not many. Let's not forget that he was on some great Cupless teams, had a wonderful run in 1983 and played a great two-way game. Is the lack of seeing him lift the Cup over his head the sole reason he's out?

I forgot to mention this in my list of contingencies for LeClair sneaking in, but his status as a US player with a good peak would have to play in.



I kind of answered my own question by outlining how much of a long shot it would be.

 

[nutbar]

Krutov. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the North American Hall of Fame.

 

[Killion]

Krutov. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the North American Hall of Fame.

Then you'd better tell the Chairman of the HHOF & the NHL that. Anatoli Tarasov was inducted so why not former Soviet, Czech, Swedish, Finnish etc Builders, Players & Referee's etc?... The IIHF has its own HHOF as do its individual members & in most cases teams themselves. Is it "the NHL Hall of Fame" or is it to be an all encompassing "Hockey Hall of Fame"? Because if its the latter, then they have an awful lot of ground to make up & cover, and I dont think their current premises in Toronto are going to be anywhere nearly large enough to house everything. As I said in an earlier post in response to a similar criticism or complaint, they really have to establish a Mission Statement. Decide whether they truly are an all encompassing HHOF or an NHL HHOF. They "dabble" in International, in Womens & Amateur, even Junior. Theres little to no recognition of the WHA. Just patchwork here & there.

 

[Ofuzz]

When Rogie retired he was 5th all time in wins. FIFTH! Playing for mostly poor teams in LA. He won a couple of cups in Montreal, a vezina trophy, 50+ shutouts (in an era where shutouts were rarer than today) and had one of the all time great series for a Canadian team goaltender in the 1976 Canada Cup. He and Makarov are the Halls greatest omissions.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I guess when I watched Middleton, I just sensed an elite player. Never got that impression with a guy like Propp. That said, Propp wouldn't be the worse member of the HOF if he managed to get in.

IMO I think Middleton was better than a number of his contemporaries who did get in such as Barber, Shutt and Macdonald. Just seemed when he was at his best, he looked a hell of a lot more dominate than those guys at their best.

Believe it or not, but there were actually arguments in the 80's as to whether Bossy or Middleton was the best RW in the game, because of Middleton's much more well rounded game. Some personal issues early in his career and injuries later really cost us what could have been one of the best RW careers of all time.

This is my memory of watching rick growing up, as a very good complete winger who maybe lack the bling of flash of some of the other guys listed but was probably better and had a better career too.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

This makes me try to think of the best "primarily" WHA players (players whose WHA career constituted a substantial majority of their overall careers

Anders Hedberg F

Hedberg was with the Jets for four years, the Rangers for seven.

I would say that of all of them, Lacroix would be the most serious HHOF candidate, with Cloutier (who was spectacular in the WHA) being the other reasonably convincing contender.

I feel Cloutier would be the strongest candidate because he was close to PPG in the NHL for five years or so following the merger.

 

[aemoreira1981]

Another vote for Sergei Makarov. And since the HHOF isn't linked to any particular league...another vote for Boris Mikhailov...who was a goal scorer on those powerhouse CSKA teams that also included Tretiak and Kharlamov.

I will go outside of Russia and suggest another name for the Hall of Fame: Hakan Loob. He only played 6 NHL seasons with the Calgary Flames, but put up 429 points in 450 gams, but was a star in the Swedish Elite League after he left (and he didn't exactly leave the NHL as a player in decline either). Farjestad Bandyklubb (his Swedish Elite League team) has retired number 5 in his honor. I also wonder if Mats Naslund (Canadiens, Bruins, and in Sweden, Timra Red Eagles, Mamlo Redhawks and Brynas IF) should be in the Hall as well (Naslund has 634 points in 651 games in the NHL and 307 points in 311 games in Swedish competition (294 Swedish Elite League, 17 Allsvenkan)).

Krutov. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the North American Hall of Fame.

What leaves voters in Canada with a bad taste in their mouth was his one NHL season in Vancouver where he was out of shape and he was derisively called "Crouton".

 

[MS]

There are no players who belong in the HHOF based substantially on their WHA play.

Calibre of play in that league was closer to the AHL than NHL.

If a guys is on the fringes of the HHOF based on their NHL play (Howe, Tremblay), yeah, you have to take into account if they spent prime years there.

If you're Andre Lacroix? Not a chance.

 

[Hardyvan123]

What are the thoughts on John LeClair?

He was a favorite of mine as a kid and I would love to see him go in, but I don't know that he has the career to make it, unless a lot of others in waiting are taken care of and there's a weak year. He has six straight years of really good goal scoring but that's about it.

LeClair is basically the US version of Shutt, maybe a slightly better resume.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Carl Brewer. Great d-man, 4 AST selections, 3 SCs. He could also be inducted as a builder for the impact he had on Finnish hockey.

One could also say Seth Martin is worthy of induction as a builder. I heard he was a great influence for many European goalies, including Tretiak and Holecek who are both on the HOH Top 40 goalies list.

 

[Killion]

Carl Brewer. Great d-man, 4 AST selections, 3 SCs. He could also be inducted as a builder for the impact he had on Finnish hockey.

One could also say Seth Martin is worthy of induction as a builder. I heard he was a great influence for many European goalies, including Tretiak and Holecek who are both on the HOH Top 40 goalies list.

Brewer as well for the yeomans work he did on the lawsuit against the NHL Pension Fund, benefiting players to no end, enriching their lives. That in and of itself, even if he'd never played or visited Finland enough to get him inducted in my book.... and Seth Martin huh? He certainly was like a "Goalie God" to the Czech's, Russians, Swedes & Finns. Highly influential player from their first encounter with him while he was with the Trail Smoke Eaters and really the star of Canadas' National Teams once upon a time all through the 50's & 60's. Played about 30 games for St.Louis as Glenn Halls backup when they entered the league, then back to Trail BC, Senior Hockey, some time in the old WHL, finally retiring in 1973. He is in a few Hockey Halls of Fame as it is, and dont know that Id go so far as to induct him into the HHOF in Toronto without first completely revising its Mission Statement to include a wider scope of players, coaches, administrators, referee's & linesmen etc.