Who are some of the best HoG players lost in the annals of time?

Finster8

aka-Ant Hill Harry
Jan 18, 2015
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I don't think Martin is really forgotten (he's a HHoVG of the shortened career variety) and Maruk is really often namedropped as a guy who had a monster season, and while he's ultimately a HHoG type, his tends to be remembered specifically for his big season, which makes him not lost in the annals.

For a guy who only had one good season, what about scoring over 60 pts 9 times and another 50 goal season check your facts.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,668
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For a guy who only had one good season, what about scoring over 60 pts 9 times and another 50 goal season check your facts.

Nice knowing you.
Also, if you're to quote one of my posts, don't make me say something I've never written.
 

Finster8

aka-Ant Hill Harry
Jan 18, 2015
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Nice knowing you.
Also, if you're to quote one of my posts, don't make me say something I've never written.

You are the one who said,"which makes him not lost in the annals", and is known for his one monster season which may be true but also Maruk had a solid career. Tell me what I said that you never wrote.
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
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Maybe it is too recent, but I get the feeling Markus Naslund fits this sort of bill. John Leclair too. Both of these guys were pretty high up in the rankings in their prime. Leclair had three straight 50 goal seasons in the dead puck era, which is harder to believe by the day. Call it the "Lindros factor" but with Lindros hurt so often it didn't seem to matter, he still scored.

Naslund peaked a bit higher to the point where there is arguably a 2-3 year span where he was the best player in the game. Leclair doesn't have that, but he does have a few straight elite seasons. The problem with both of these players is that they both were late bloomers and both didn't do much at all after their primes, which is why they get forgotten and aren't considered HHOFers.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Maybe it is too recent, but I get the feeling Markus Naslund fits this sort of bill. John Leclair too. Both of these guys were pretty high up in the rankings in their prime. Leclair had three straight 50 goal seasons in the dead puck era, which is harder to believe by the day. Call it the "Lindros factor" but with Lindros hurt so often it didn't seem to matter, he still scored.

Naslund peaked a bit higher to the point where there is arguably a 2-3 year span where he was the best player in the game. Leclair doesn't have that, but he does have a few straight elite seasons. The problem with both of these players is that they both were late bloomers and both didn't do much at all after their primes, which is why they get forgotten and aren't considered HHOFers.

John LeClair was 3rd in the league in scoring over his best six years (behind only Jagr and Selanne). How many players have ever done that, and not ended up in the Hall? (I'm not saying he should be in the Hall - he accomplished very little of note by HOF standards outside of those big seasons - but I'd be surprised if there are many people who have done this who haven't been enshrined).

The most comparable stat for Naslund - he led the league in scoring over his best four years (2001 to 2004), narrowly edging out Jagr. I'd guess that's also very rare among non-HOF players. (Over his best six years - and yes, six is a completely arbitrary time frame - Naslund was 4th in the league in scoring, a single point behind Joe Thornton in 3rd).

While I'm doing "best six years" trivia - Claude Giroux was 3rd in scoring from 2012 to 2017. Nobody has him as a Hall of Famer today but his resume is starting to look pretty decent, no?
 

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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He's already been mentioned in this thread, but for me, no good-not-great player has ever had a quicker escape hatch from my brain than Cory Stillman, despite his career coinciding directly with the 2 decades in my life that I am biologically predisposed to remembering best.

He first showed up on the radar full-time in 1995-96, and got no Calder votes in a sort of weak-ish year where plenty of other guys with similar numbers got fringe support. I remember becoming aware of him as a middle-of-the-lineup forward around this time, and probably assumed he was a contemporary of someone like Nelson Emerson or John Cullen, not a guy like Bertuzzi or Sykora who would show up in the sort of "future watch" hype pieces in magazines.
Then he logged six more seasons in Calgary, without ever getting any kind of "Mr. Flame" reputation than I'm aware of. Then he was there in St. Louis in some pretty strong years, of which I remember Pronger and MacInnis, the Slovaks, Tkachuk and Weight as ringers, Turek and Johnson trying to hold onto the starting job, the variety of defensemen left to fill the rest of the game (Khavanov, Reirden, etc.) and even guys like Mayers and Nash, but not the guy who finished 6th and 3rd in scoring on those teams.
Then he goes out and wins 2 cups in a row and I can't remember what his role on either of them was. Secondary scoring I suppose? Both Recchi and Weight seem more like Canes to me, despite Stillman finishing 3rd, 8th (injuries I guess) and 6th (traded) in 3 seasons for them.
I refuse to believe this guy played for Ottawa or Florida, despite evidence to the contrary.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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John LeClair was 3rd in the league in scoring over his best six years (behind only Jagr and Selanne). How many players have ever done that, and not ended up in the Hall? (I'm not saying he should be in the Hall - he accomplished very little of note by HOF standards outside of those big seasons - but I'd be surprised if there are many people who have done this who haven't been enshrined).

The most comparable stat for Naslund - he led the league in scoring over his best four years (2001 to 2004), narrowly edging out Jagr. I'd guess that's also very rare among non-HOF players. (Over his best six years - and yes, six is a completely arbitrary time frame - Naslund was 4th in the league in scoring, a single point behind Joe Thornton in 3rd).

While I'm doing "best six years" trivia - Claude Giroux was 3rd in scoring from 2012 to 2017. Nobody has him as a Hall of Famer today but his resume is starting to look pretty decent, no?

If Giroux follows a normal career curve, he's a lock. Just one metric: his 7-year VsX score is barely worse than Peter Stastny's, and I don't think anyone thinks of Stastny as a weak HHOFer.

For the other two - I would guess that LeClair eventually makes it, and Naslund doesn't. LeClair is going to be helped by being big part of those strong Team USAs for so long. Also, the two guys for whom you once could say, "How could LeClair make it if X isn't in yet?" are now in (Eric Lindros and Paul Kariya).

LeClair's 5 postseason All-Star nods are the most of anyone who isn't in, right? At one point, I had this info at my fingertips.
 
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Hobnobs

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Ray Whitney, Andrew Brunette, Michal Pivonka, Brian Bradley, Slava Kozlov, Cliff Ronning, Andrew Cassels, German Titov, Randy Burridge, Nelson Emerson, Robert Svehla, Johan Garpenlöv, PJ Axelsson, Scott Lachance, Aaron Ward, Niklas Sundström.

Im sure every era has tons of names of good players that will be forgotten more or less.
 
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The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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Leclair had three straight 50 goal seasons in the dead puck era, which is harder to believe by the day. Call it the "Lindros factor" but with Lindros hurt so often it didn't seem to matter, he still scored.
Well, yes and no. LeClair became a big scorer the moment he arrived in Philly and played with Lindros, and he never again was a big scorer after Lindros left Philly in 2000. (Somebody needs to do a study comparing LeClair's production those six years with and without Lindros in the line-up.)

Not that it matters, as three straight 50-goal seasons is what it is. The 43- and 40-goal seasons in '99 and '00 are also hugely impressive, given how low scoring was getting. (LeClair also had the best plus/minus in the NHL in 1996-97.) He was 1 goal behind Jagr for most in the NHL from 1995 though 1999-00.

LeClair might represent the highest five or six-season peak of anybody not in the Hall. But, as noted, outside of those six years, he's nothing special.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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John LeClair was 3rd in the league in scoring over his best six years (behind only Jagr and Selanne). How many players have ever done that, and not ended up in the Hall? (I'm not saying he should be in the Hall - he accomplished very little of note by HOF standards outside of those big seasons - but I'd be surprised if there are many people who have done this who haven't been enshrined).

The most comparable stat for Naslund - he led the league in scoring over his best four years (2001 to 2004), narrowly edging out Jagr. I'd guess that's also very rare among non-HOF players. (Over his best six years - and yes, six is a completely arbitrary time frame - Naslund was 4th in the league in scoring, a single point behind Joe Thornton in 3rd).

While I'm doing "best six years" trivia - Claude Giroux was 3rd in scoring from 2012 to 2017. Nobody has him as a Hall of Famer today but his resume is starting to look pretty decent, no?

Giroux has got to be the quietest player in NHL history who led the NHL in points over a - hang onto your hats - 6 year span. No joke. 2010-2016. In a league with Malkin, Crosby and Ovechkin. Crosby did have the injuries Giroux isn't first in PPG but still, wow, and this guy completely gets underrated. He could play on my team anyday. He was snubbed from the Olympic team in 2014 and in 2016 they only let him play one game. Top 3 in points three times already. It was just as recent as 2018 that the guy was 2nd in the NHL with 102 points behind McDavid.

Yeah he's on the right sort of curve, but like Kopitar will being unsung and quiet hur thim? It shouldn't.

Well, yes and no. LeClair became a big scorer the moment he arrived in Philly and played with Lindros, and he never again was a big scorer after Lindros left Philly in 2000. (Somebody needs to do a study comparing LeClair's production those six years with and without Lindros in the line-up.)

Not that it matters, as three straight 50-goal seasons is what it is. The 43- and 40-goal seasons in '99 and '00 are also hugely impressive, given how low scoring was getting. (LeClair also had the best plus/minus in the NHL in 1996-97.) He was 1 goal behind Jagr for most in the NHL from 1995 though 1999-00.

LeClair might represent the highest five or six-season peak of anybody not in the Hall. But, as noted, outside of those six years, he's nothing special.

Too much of a late bloomer. Big guys usually are, but there is that idea that it coincided with Lindros teaming up with him. Someone did a study on Leclair's production without Lindros and it was still good. He was established by then, Lindros helped him be a better player and give him that opportunity but for whatever reason he managed to do well on his own. 1996 World Cup comes to mind. Canada didn't have an answer for him or a defenseman to control him or out muscle him. He opened up space for others.

I remember his back flaring up around 2001 or so and he definitely wasn't the same guy afterwards. It is too bad with the timing because it would have been nice to see him put up a big year without Lindros being there for 50-60 games and then we could see how "his" Flyers looked.

Plus his playoff resume isn't overly impressive. But he's got to be the only player with 5 First or Second All-star selections who isn't in. Rick Martin has 4, Carl Brewer has 4. That's it isn't it?
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Well, yes and no. LeClair became a big scorer the moment he arrived in Philly and played with Lindros, and he never again was a big scorer after Lindros left Philly in 2000. (Somebody needs to do a study comparing LeClair's production those six years with and without Lindros in the line-up.)

Not that it matters, as three straight 50-goal seasons is what it is. The 43- and 40-goal seasons in '99 and '00 are also hugely impressive, given how low scoring was getting. (LeClair also had the best plus/minus in the NHL in 1996-97.) He was 1 goal behind Jagr for most in the NHL from 1995 though 1999-00.

LeClair might represent the highest five or six-season peak of anybody not in the Hall. But, as noted, outside of those six years, he's nothing special.

I'll have to look for it, but there was an old post showing LeClair's production those six years when Lindros wasn't in the lineup. Since, as we all know, Lindros missed a lot of time, that was a pretty big sample size. The impact on LeClair's production wasn't zero, but all things considered, it was small.

To illustrate just how big a drop-off there is in LeClair's production, here's VsX for his best six years (with the next ten closest players in either direction), and then the next best after that:

VsX, best six years

74Henrik Sedin 86.6
75Paul Thompson 86.6
76Syd Howe 86.5
77Markus Naslund 86.4
78Aurel Joliat 86.1
79Alex Delvecchio 85.7
80Bryan Hextall 85.5
81Jamie Benn 85.3
82Luc Robitaille 85.2
83Ryan Getzlaf 84.9
84John LeClair 84.8
85Rod Gilbert 84.7
86Phil Kessel 84.6
87Doug Gilmour 83.9
88Daniel Alfredsson 83.9
89Marian Hossa 83.9
90Theoren Fleury 83.8
91John Tavares 83.8
92Pavel Datsyuk 83.7
93Dany Heatley 83.6
94Michel Goulet 83.0
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

VsX, next six best years (ie 7th to 12th best)

Ray Ferraro 62.2 44.4
Steven Stamkos 92.1 44.3
Steve Thomas 63.5 44.2
Mike Ridley 60.8 44.1
Ralph Backstrom 60.9 44.1
John MacLean 60.6 44.0
Kirk Muller 66.6 43.9
Bill Guerin 66.5 43.9
John Tonelli 58.5 43.5
Phil Watson 79.8 43.5
John LeClair 84.8 43.4
Bill Cook 99.2 43.2
Olli Jokinen 70.5 43.1
Ebbie Goodfellow 71.9 43.0
Blake Wheeler 82.3 42.9
Bryan Smolinski 54.3 42.9
Sweeney Schriner 95.4 42.7
Thomas Steen 56.2 42.6
Hec Kilrea 62.9 42.6
Mush March 63.0 42.5
Tomas Sandstrom 64.2 42.5
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

For the first table, you mostly have current/future Hall of Famers (14 of them are in, or have a valid HOF case - I'm including Alfredsson, Fleury and Getzlaf. Then you have a few other players, like Naslund, Heatley, Benn and Tavares who have really high peaks - and the latter two might build up a HOF resume eventually).

The second table is mostly solid second-tier scorers like Ferraro, Thomas, Guerin, Jokinen, etc. Stamkos doesn't really belong in this table; he only played 11 seasons, one of which was pretty much a write-off due to injuries. The same is true for Cook and Schriner (both only played 11 seasons, not all of which were full), and Goodfellow was a defenseman half his career.

To be honest I don't think these tables tell us much that isn't already obvious from looking at LeClair's career, but it's good to make the examples a bit more concrete.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Kim Johnsson, you know the defenseman who had a concussion and retired to never be heard from again. He was a really good player in his day.
 

Hobnobs

Pinko
Nov 29, 2011
8,863
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Kim Johnsson, you know the defenseman who had a concussion and retired to never be heard from again. He was a really good player in his day.

It's not surprising. Kim Johnsson is a very private person and didn't like public life.
 

Austerlitz

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Jun 26, 2018
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Not exactly what the OP was looking for but the game seems to have evolved away from the 3rd/4th line gritty checking wingers like Dave Lowry, Bill Berg, Dave Reid, Mike Keane, Brian Skrudland (ok, a center mainly), etc and I miss those guys.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Plus his playoff resume isn't overly impressive. But he's got to be the only player with 5 First or Second All-star selections who isn't in. Rick Martin has 4, Carl Brewer has 4. That's it isn't it?

LeClair scoring back-to-back OT goals in the 1993 Stanley Cup Finals is a huge boost for his playoff resume though. His playoff career is OK—nothing more—but those two goals add some spice to the recipe.
 

The Panther

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LeClair scoring back-to-back OT goals in the 1993 Stanley Cup Finals is a huge boost for his playoff resume though. His playoff career is OK—nothing more—but those two goals add some spice to the recipe.
I'll never understand why teams trade guys like that. LeClair had had two seasons under his belt in Montreal before that '93 Cup run, and he hadn't done badly at all. When you bang in 20 goals and 40-odd points with, I'm sure, very limited ice-time, and then score two Cup-Final overtime goals in back-to-back games, I'm keeping that guy! (Habs kept him for one more year after that.)

Another example is Max Talbot in Pittsburgh. Sure, the Pens kept him for two years or more after his game 7 heroics in the '09 Finals, but they let him go as a free agent... and Philly signed him up.

If a guy is instrumental in making your team Cup champs and then he continues to play at the same or higher level afterwards, keep that guy!
 

Michael Farkas

Grace Personified
Jun 28, 2006
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A fourth line center got a five-year deal (did he even finish it in the NHL?) we weren't - rightfully - going there. Max was popular, he was on local (terrible) commercials and made the best he could of the Pittsburgh nightlife scene...but if anything it's on him not to sign with the crowd he quieted most unceremoniously just a couple years prior...

That said, you lay $10 million guaranteed in front of me, at my skill level, I'd play for the Flyers too...
 

VanIslander

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... Michal Pivonka,... Slava Kozlov,... Randy Burridge, .... Robert Svehla,... PJ Axelsson... Niklas Sundström.
These 6 of your 16 ought to be remembered, and indeed their great skills probably won't be recorded in the annals of time.

I've never seen a team so great that they couldn't use those guys in some capacity.
 

ShelbyZ

Registered User
Apr 8, 2015
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*sigh* You might be right. I have heard younger Caps fan on these boards go 'Calle who?' and make lists of best dmen ever for the franchise and omit him.

Loved the guy.

I feel like there's a lot of underrated and forgotten guys from that mid-late 90's Caps D core that helped Jim Carey to a Vezina and then lead the team on a Cinderella finals run in '98. Witt, Reekie and Tinordi come to mind.
 
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