Which player made most out of his limited talent?

[67 others]

alex burrows

shows you that hard work, a world class motor, and having a really really really great hockey mind can take you from an undrafted 22 year old ECHLer to the best defensive winger of your generation and a prime of four straight 25+ goal seasons.

Joe Pavelki is all effort and hand eye coordination, limited talent elsewhere and bad skating

 

[Moose Head]

Excellent passer, great wrister, couldn't take the puck away from him once he got it. Funny looking skater, but not as bad as people make him seem.

Does not belong in this conversation.

Well when the guy your describing beats arguably the most dynamic offensive force the NHL has seen pre Orr by 56 points, a guy he finished 30 pts behind as a line mate, yeah, he’s far exceeding expectations given his talent level. Nobody is saying Espo was not talented, but he far out produced players with what appeared, a lot more talent. It’s all relative. He belongs in this thread.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Well when the guy your describing beats arguably the most dynamic offensive force the NHL has seen pre Orr by 56 points, a guy he finished 30 pts behind as a line mate, yeah, he’s far exceeding expectations given his talent level. Nobody is saying Espo was not talented, but he far out produced players with what appeared, a lot more talent. It’s all relative. He belongs in this thread.

We disagree.

The title of this thread says "limited talent".

One cannot shatter all-time scoring records with limited talent.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Joe Pavelki is all effort and hand eye coordination, limited talent elsewhere and bad skating

and off the charts hockey iq

i also wonder about shot blocking. that's a hard thing to do, to time it right, to know where you are in the shooting lanes, to be able to recover after. insofar as all of that is a skill, i thought scuderi was very skilled. or in that vein scott hannan or the legendary craig ludwig.

He's a Toni Lydman type defender in that you can't gauge just how valuable he is until you see someone try and replace him.

that tallinder/lydman pairing is one of my all time favourite pairs. it's really rare that you have a pairing of two guys who through the rest of their careers were both the underrated little things guy who made life much easier for their partners. the short-lived mitchell/salo pair, another of my favourites, is another example.

 

[Michael Farkas]

i also wonder about shot blocking. that's a hard thing to do, to time it right, to know where you are in the shooting lanes, to be able to recover after. insofar as all of that is a skill, i thought scuderi was very skilled

You must have needed a towel when that Chris Phillips - Anton Volchenkov pairing made more saves* than Ray Emery in the '07 run for Ottawa...




* - probably

 

[The Panther]

Luc Robitaille and Dino Cicarelli.

Interesting choices.

Dino was tiny (Hockey Ref. lists him as 5'10'' but I think that's optimistic!) and feisty, and most of his goals (esp. in the 90s) were scored within three feet of the goal-line, usually with a defenceman or two draped all over him, or him fallen over the goaltender. Not the best skater either, although I guess he was all right for his era. But it's mainly a size and feistiness thing with him. He seemed driven to get to the net and be a pain in the butt.

The knock on Robitaille was always his skating, which was choppy and visually unimpressive. His passing was good, but not great. His shot was really good, but he mainly had a slapper more than a wrist-shot or an in-close ability to deke or stickhandle, which would seem to have limited his goal-scoring ability after the early-90s... except it didn't. Robitaille is the Grade-A example of how hockey sense and IQ and individual determination are way, way more important than obvious physical skills like speed or physicality.

Dino was never drafted, and Robitaille went 171st, and then for two years couldn't crack the lowly Kings' starting line-up (not even one game). Yet, by the time both guys were done, they'd collectively scored 1,407 NHL goals.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Definitely. Holmstrom was terrific at working the boards, but you'd never know it from hearing even most of his fans describing his game. Great subtle little plays for days.

I saw a game at the Joe against the Capitals back in 2011 and I remember the one takeaway from the game at the time was that while the two teams were pretty evenly matched overall, that wings team absolutely slaughtered them in board battles. And Lidstrom was good too, but guys like Holmstrom along with some of their bigger stars were really elite at working the puck down low too

His skating early in his career was shady, to say the least. But you're right, Chara worked like a madman to get his physicality and skating as good as possible. He's a Hall of Famer by determination.

Yep theres got to be easily 20 similar players in the league back in 2004 that didnt even survive the next 3 years.

I don't disagree. You watch Esposito and immediately assume it must be a guy near the end of his career. He LUMBERED around the ice and he certainly looked even slower when followed by a guy like Orr rushing up to join in. No knock on Espo, but he made his bones by being savvy and finding the right place to be. I don't think of him as some outstanding talent. Just a pure producer and gamer.

Excellent passer, great wrister, couldn't take the puck away from him once he got it. Funny looking skater, but not as bad as people make him seem.

Does not belong in this conversation.

The more I watch of Espo I find myself impatiently waiting for him to do something mind blowing but it just isnt there. He is an undeniably great playmaker for the time, and it is uncanny how often a routine shift with Cashman-Espo-Hodge in the attacking zone ends up in an ugly goal

 

[Dingo]

don't forget narc, hehe

that said, whatever people want to say about his character, which personally i'd be inclined to defend as vigilantly as almost any canuck ever, slug is maybe the last the animal i'd compare him to

ya, more of a weasel.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

ya, more of a weasel.

lol, maybe.

but that’s what i call antoine roussel. the summer we signed him it was the summer of snoopy (jay beagle) and weasel.

jannik hansen is the honey badger. quinn hughes is huggy bear.

a weird menagerie. burrows is really more of a... mole? he’s everywhere and he ruins your garden.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

You must have needed a towel when that Chris Phillips - Anton Volchenkov pairing made more saves* than Ray Emery in the '07 run for Ottawa...




* - probably

phillips i kind of found boring but i had a lot of time for the a-train

 

[buffalowing88]

and off the charts hockey iq

i also wonder about shot blocking. that's a hard thing to do, to time it right, to know where you are in the shooting lanes, to be able to recover after. insofar as all of that is a skill, i thought scuderi was very skilled. or in that vein scott hannan or the legendary craig ludwig.



that tallinder/lydman pairing is one of my all time favourite pairs. it's really rare that you have a pairing of two guys who through the rest of their careers were both the underrated little things guy who made life much easier for their partners. the short-lived mitchell/salo pair, another of my favourites, is another example.

Mitchell and Salo were great. Salo in particular just gets no respect and I remember him being such a rock for that squad for quite some time.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Craig Adams. Not much skill but still grinded 2 cups and nearly 1000 games out of his career?

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

Burrows could have been an all time great story, for the reasons you mentioned. Unfortunately in every non-Vancouver part of the civilized world he’s remembered as a hair puller, biter, diver, whiner, player who trashed talk players wives. An absolute slug.

I have heard stories about Burrows that were outstanding from Vancouverites.. He conducted himself with pure class in his interactions with the public.

 

[buffalowing88]

Craig Adams. Not much skill but still grinded 2 cups and nearly 1000 games out of his career?

I can't believe Craig Adams played that many games. Every time I saw him on the ice around 2010-2012, I knew it was going to be rough to watch. I don't have anything nice to say about him, because he honestly doesn't even have a moment where he stood out. He was just...there. The guy found a way to stick, though, so more power to him and the millions he made as a result.

 

[buffalowing88]

phillips i kind of found boring but i had a lot of time for the a-train

Phillips was solid. But, I agree. He was boring in every definition of the term. Volechenkov was considered a very talented player early on. He was actually pretty talented, just couldn't quite keep up as the league changed. His stock in 07 was very high, though. Thought he had a VERY little bit of Konstantinov in his play.

 

[Dingo]

and off the charts hockey iq

i also wonder about shot blocking. that's a hard thing to do, to time it right, to know where you are in the shooting lanes, to be able to recover after. insofar as all of that is a skill, i thought scuderi was very skilled. or in that vein scott hannan or the legendary craig ludwig.



that tallinder/lydman pairing is one of my all time favourite pairs. it's really rare that you have a pairing of two guys who through the rest of their careers were both the underrated little things guy who made life much easier for their partners. the short-lived mitchell/salo pair, another of my favourites, is another example.

love both of those pairings.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Terry O'Reilly.

Beat me to it

 

[BobbyAwe]

Excellent passer, great wrister, couldn't take the puck away from him once he got it. Funny looking skater, but not as bad as people make him seem.

Does not belong in this conversation.

Agreed. Looked slower than he was because he stayed on the ice for 4 minutes at a time in his heyday. I've seen him in full game vids where he surprised me a little at times when he HAD to skate to get up ice. All his highlight vids are of him scoring from the slot.

 

[CaptBrannigan]

I have heard stories about Burrows that were outstanding from Vancouverites.. He conducted himself with pure class in his interactions with the public.

And I’ve heard stories that there’s a dinosaur in Loch Ness and a Bigfoot in Washington state.

While those things may be true, you don’t go outside the rules (written and unwritten) as often as Burrows did without it affecting your standing as a player in the eyes of many.

 

[Bluesguru]

Syl Apps Jr., can’t tell if he maxed out his potential or if he fell off a cliff.

 

[joe dirte]

alex burrows

shows you that hard work, a world class motor, and having a really really really great hockey mind can take you from an undrafted 22 year old ECHLer to the best defensive winger of your generation and a prime of four straight 25+ goal seasons.

Alex Burrows is the best defensive winger of a generation????? Uhh. No. No he is not. not remotely close.

 

[FerrisRox]

Well when the guy your describing beats arguably the most dynamic offensive force the NHL has seen pre Orr by 56 points, a guy he finished 30 pts behind as a line mate, yeah, he’s far exceeding expectations given his talent level. Nobody is saying Espo was not talented, but he far out produced players with what appeared, a lot more talent. It’s all relative. He belongs in this thread.

The title of the thread says "limited talent."

If you think Phil Esposito had "limited talent" I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Phillips was solid. But, I agree. He was boring in every definition of the term. Volechenkov was considered a very talented player early on. He was actually pretty talented, just couldn't quite keep up as the league changed. His stock in 07 was very high, though. Thought he had a VERY little bit of Konstantinov in his play.

in the post-lockout years, volchenkov and kronwall both gave me a bit of a konstantinov vibe, but i definitely thought volchenkov was the better one..

 

[Moose Head]

The title of the thread says "limited talent."

If you think Phil Esposito had "limited talent" I couldn't disagree with you more.

I was going by natural talent in relation to results. Obviously the guy had talent. For instance, I think what Espo did in relation to his natural gifts is more impressive than say Terry O’Rielly, another mentioned in this thread. The problem is the thread title. You can’t accomplish shit with limited talent. You can exceed expectations beyond your natural talent, which is what Espo did, moreso than just about anyone.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Alex Burrows is the best defensive winger of a generation????? Uhh. No. No he is not. not remotely close.

Sneaked a peek on Selke voting. Among players listed as wingers on Hockey Reference, Burrows’ Selke record is 12-4-2-10-8-9, but in any given season I wasn’t sure about the positional listings. Backes and Zetterberg fared better in Selke voting, but didn’t they play center a lot? Anyway, at a glance, it looks like those two, Ryan Callahan, Marian Hossa and maybe Parise deserves mention in that discussion, but if instead of the Selke award we had the Bob Gainey defensive winger award, and Zetterberg was deemed a center in 2009-10, then Burrows would have one of those