Which markets do you think will get teams 33 and 34?

[Barclay Donaldson]

And there'd be no professional sports competition in Austin, correct?

Besides the MLS Austin franchise, no.

However, University of Texas, Austin Longhorn's athletics program takes up the equivalent of at least two other professional sports teams in terms of competition. The football team has higher attendance than every single NFL franchise and corporate support to rival all but a few. It is the equivalent of sharing the market with a NFL team. Between the rest of the athletics program, it is the equivalent of sharing with at least one other professional team.

It is similar to Columbus, OH. The Blue Jackets are the only professional team except for the MLS Crew. However, Ohio State Buckeye football takes up just as much, likely more, attention and dollars.

 

[Stumbledore]

She claimed I was talking about TV territory. Since I was clearly talking about territory infringement, which has nothing to do with TV territory, I thought laughing was involved.

Here is one such PDF: http://www.cba.org/cba/cle/PDF/COMP09_BockingAward_paper.pdf. I was under the impression these things were easier to find. The Hockey News talks about the attached PDF here: https://www.si.com/hockey/news/can-the-maple-leafs-prevent-a-team-from-moving-to-southern-ontario. It isn't in PDF form but hopefully it is acceptable.

I haven't had the time or emotional energy to read through the new 2020 CBA, but the old one stated territory as 50 miles of the corporate limits.

The opinion paper from Osler is over a decade old and not on point. (Fun fact: The amazing Mrs. Moose once worked at Osler.) The Hockey News article from 9 years ago is even less relevant.

So ... you can't produce even ONE of the "dozens of PDFs" that you claimed were available through a simple Google search?

You wrote earlier "I suggest you look up what the NHL territory definition is". Perhaps when you're done looking down your nose and have found the "time and emotional energy" to follow you own advice, you could also share the results of your research with us.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The opinion paper from Osler is over a decade old and not on point. (Fun fact: The amazing Mrs. Moose once worked at Osler.) The Hockey News article from 9 years ago is even less relevant.

So ... you can't produce even ONE of the "dozens of PDFs" that you claimed were available through a simple Google search?

You wrote earlier "I suggest you look up what the NHL territory definition is". Perhaps when you're done looking down your nose and have found the "time and emotional energy" to follow you own advice, you could also share the results of your research with us.

In the opinion paper, it clearly defined territory as 50 miles of the corporate territory. The Hockey News article also clearly gave the same definition. It went unchanged through the last CBA. Team territory is a fairly wide range. It isn't TV territory. It certainly isn't as simple as "according to Google Maps says this is so far away and it's only so many miles from the arena." My point was and always has been it isn't as simple as miles from city center to city center or arena to arena. It definitely isn't TV territory.

 

[Stumbledore]

My point was and always has been it isn't as simple as miles from city center to city center or arena to arena. It definitely isn't TV territory.

And my point is that after your sneering dismissal you still haven't produce a single link to an NHL bylaw.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I do know that West 17 will be in the Central Time Zone.

I also believe that even further down the road, West 18 will also be in the CTZ.

Colorado is fine in the Central because they are the in the easternmost major market, Denver, that is located in the Mountain Time Zone. And all of Colorado observes DST.

By rule, Eastern expansion teams have to be in the Eastern Time Zone. Though depending on alignment Nashville could move to the East they are the easternmost Western team and part of their home state is in the ETZ which is unique among all the states and provinces in the Western Conference footprint.

 

[Stumbledore]

I do know that West 17 will be in the Central Time Zone.

I also believe that even further down the road, West 18 will also be in the CTZ.

Colorado is fine in the Central because they are the in the easternmost major market, Denver, that is located in the Mountain Time Zone. And all of Colorado observes DST.

By rule, Eastern expansion teams have to be in the Eastern Time Zone. Though depending on alignment Nashville could move to the East they are the easternmost Western team and part of their home state is in the ETZ which is unique among all the states and provinces in the Western Conference footprint.

I agree with you, but the NHL is notorious for throwing out its rules whenever it suits them.

 

[Red Dread]

Besides the MLS Austin franchise, no.

However, University of Texas, Austin Longhorn's athletics program takes up the equivalent of at least two other professional sports teams in terms of competition. The football team has higher attendance than every single NFL franchise and corporate support to rival all but a few. It is the equivalent of sharing the market with a NFL team. Between the rest of the athletics program, it is the equivalent of sharing with at least one other professional team.

It is similar to Columbus, OH. The Blue Jackets are the only professional team except for the MLS Crew. However, Ohio State Buckeye football takes up just as much, likely more, attention and dollars.

Does competition matter so much other than with NBA?

 

[mouser]

By rule, Eastern expansion teams have to be in the Eastern Time Zone. Though depending on alignment Nashville could move to the East they are the easternmost Western team and part of their home state is in the ETZ which is unique among all the states and provinces in the Western Conference footprint.

Which rule are you citing? Never heard of it before.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Of course once we are at four nine-team divisions Atlantic and Metropolitan teams would only play each other twice same with Central and Pacific teams.

This would be done to maintain an 82-game schedule while having each team still play 1/3 of its schedule in their division. Each team would play four of their division opponents four times each and the other four three times each alternating every year until each team has played 7 home games and 7 road games against each division rival over a 4-year period.

 

[MNNumbers]

Of course once we are at four nine-team divisions Atlantic and Metropolitan teams would only play each other twice same with Central and Pacific teams.

This would be done to maintain an 82-game schedule while having each team still play 1/3 of its schedule in their division. Each team would play four of their division opponents four times each and the other four three times each alternating every year until each team has played 7 home games and 7 road games against each division rival over a 4-year period.

Who made you commissioner?

 

[gstommylee]

I do know that West 17 will be in the Central Time Zone.

I also believe that even further down the road, West 18 will also be in the CTZ.

Colorado is fine in the Central because they are the in the easternmost major market, Denver, that is located in the Mountain Time Zone. And all of Colorado observes DST.

By rule, Eastern expansion teams have to be in the Eastern Time Zone. Though depending on alignment Nashville could move to the East they are the easternmost Western team and part of their home state is in the ETZ which is unique among all the states and provinces in the Western Conference footprint.

Its not so much only eastern time teams in the eastern conference is they don't want a eastern time zone team outside the eastern conference. Nothing says a central time zone team playing in the eastern conference if needed. One of the reasons why quebec wasn't given expansion in 15 was they didn't want a 17th eastern conference team and didn't want to have quebec play in the western division due to travel distance.

 

[gstommylee]

Of course once we are at four nine-team divisions Atlantic and Metropolitan teams would only play each other twice same with Central and Pacific teams.

This would be done to maintain an 82-game schedule while having each team still play 1/3 of its schedule in their division. Each team would play four of their division opponents four times each and the other four three times each alternating every year until each team has played 7 home games and 7 road games against each division rival over a 4-year period.

I don't think we'll ever see 36 teams in the NHL. It makes no sense when you start splitting up the pie more and teams end up taking less TV revenue.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

I don't think we'll ever see 36 teams in the NHL. It makes no sense when you start splitting up the pie more and teams end up taking less TV revenue.

I'm sure the NHL will still be a 32 team league in the year 2846.

 

[TheLegend]

Who made you commissioner?

We had lots of candidates in the megathread, but I don’t remember us having a vote on this??

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I don't think we'll ever see 36 teams in the NHL. It makes no sense when you start splitting up the pie more and teams end up taking less TV revenue.

This is why NBA won't expand. But NBA has fans in cities without NBA teams. NHL? Maybe not so much in the US.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Does competition matter so much other than with NBA?

Definitely. Whether they're professional or not or whether they share the same full season or not doesn't matter. Columbus, OH's relationship with Ohio State Buckeyes and Columbus Blue Jackets is just further proof of this.

 

[Hockeyholic]

A second team in Montreal or Toronto would be pretty cool.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Considering how many teams will be for sale over the next few years due to the cash flow crunch, don’t count on expansion any time soon because deep pockets buyers will have their pick of teams to choose from.

 

[BigT2002]

I'm pretty sure they've already been mulling over a team in Houston, haven't they?

And QC just seems logical.

But, wouldn't it just make sense to move teams like Ottawa or Arizona to those locations instead of expansion?

 

[Stumbledore]

I'm pretty sure they've already been mulling over a team in Houston, haven't they?

And QC just seems logical.

But, wouldn't it just make sense to move teams like Ottawa or Arizona to those locations instead of expansion?

Yes, it would make sense. But there's sense, common sense, and NHL sense.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I don't see the NHL expanding any time soon. But, to answer your question, and assuming that no team relocates, the NHL would want to get into Houston and Atlanta (again), as these are the two largest markets without an NHL team, and both of them are growing at a very fast pace. Strong teams in these markets would definitely help increase the value of a US television contract.

 

[KevFu]

I don't think we'll ever see 36 teams in the NHL. It makes no sense when you start splitting up the pie more and teams end up taking less TV revenue.

Pretty sure we've done the math on this and shown how that's a silly logic.

Just to ballpark the league-wide revenues, the national TV contracts a few years ago amounted to about $20 million per team with 30 teams (on average, Canadian split complicates actual numbers but this is just a sample of theory). Say the rest of money that gets distributed league wide adds another $5 million a team for like, league sponsorship and merch and stuff.

So $750 million total, $25 million per team for 30 teams, per year. NHL adds Vegas and Seattle and now that pool of money is divided 32 ways instead.

Each team gets $23.44 million. So that's a loss of $1.56 million less. Over 30 years, that adds up to $47 million in losses by sharing the pie more ways! (That's your argument).

Except that
1. Expansion fees. VGK/SEA paid $38.33 million per team just to get in. So that $47 million loss is only $8.67 million over the next 30 years.

2. VGK and SEA add revenue to the pool. The next NBC contract is going to be around $350 million, an extra $4.86 million per team. PER YEAR. So now every team is coming out ahead STARTING IN YEAR TWO.

I'm sure the NHL will still be a 32 team league in the year 2846.

Exactly.

This is why NBA won't expand. But NBA has fans in cities without NBA teams. NHL? Maybe not so much in the US.

Sure, but the NBA and MLB wouldn't be able to have profitable teams in Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa and Winnipeg. The NHL can.
Plus no other league would be able to put a third team in the New York metro area, and the NHL already has NYR, NYI, NJD.

If the NBA/MLB expand into Montreal and Vancouver, the NHL still has 5 extra teams in their pocket (and the NHL beat the NBA/MLB to Vegas).

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I'm pretty sure they've already been mulling over a team in Houston, haven't they?

And QC just seems logical.

But, wouldn't it just make sense to move teams like Ottawa or Arizona to those locations instead of expansion?

Would it make sense to relocate a team that has been Top 5 in league attendance multiple times within the past 10 years and is only ever brought up because their owner is a clown? Would it make sense to relocate a team that finally has a dedicated, wealthy, and intelligent owner dedicated to the market and has a successful history of turning around distressed businesses and before COVID had seen attendance, revenues, and market interest drastically increase?

 

[dkitson16]

It is widely available in the NHL bylaws regarding expansion. There are about a dozen PDFs you can download from Google.

Do you not know about territory infringement in the NHL? I suggest you look it up too then. It laughably isn't TV territory. It is "home territory." I believe it was formerly called "corporate territory." Do a quick Google search, it is a good read.

Although New Jersey did pay Philadelphia "territorial" rights - no article I've read is clear, but it is highly likely they were paying for invasion of TV territory, (as it couldn't have been the 50 mile territorial protection) or alternatively paying to get Philly's vote to approve the relocation from Colorado.

 

[dkitson16]

Demographically it is a better fit. The NBA also has 30 teams so it is a better fit. San Diego Hockey outside of this version of the Gulls hasn’t been well supported at all. Southern California hockey market is crowded enough to the point that Anaheim barely breaks even.

Do you need more or is that enough?



I suggest you look up what the NHL territory definition is. It isn’t city center to city center. It isn’t even arena to arena. If that’s the case, a Hamilton NHL team wouldn’t need to pay Toronto an indemnity fee.

San Diego Gulls in the WHL were a success in the 70's regularly leading that league in attendance. They also outdrew the NBA (the only WHL team to do that). Of course it was the Clippers (who used to always be bad) so there is that argument.