Which line was better? Pizza vs WCE

[Star Ocean]

Pizza = Alfredsson spezza heatly
WCE = naslund morrison bertuzzi

Click to read more...

 

[JustinCase]

Alfie was the best on this list while Morrison was the worst.

Voted Pizza

 

[Regal]

Pizza line mainly for the difference between Spezza and Morrison

 

[Addison Rae]

Morrison was the clear weak link.

Give me the Canucks though.

 

[tony d]

The Pizza line.

 

[amnesiac]

Alfie was the best on this list while Morrison was the worst.

Voted Pizza

Naslund had a better peak

 

[Highmarker]

Alfredsson Spezza and Heatley were ridiculously productive.

 

[ESH]

Naslund had a better peak

I don’t think it was so much (if at all) better that it makes much of a difference

 

[Perfect_Drug]

WCE for me.

Bertuzzi was the ace in the hole.


Just a physically dominant beast at his peak.

Also, WCE Dominated during the DPE, which IMHO counts for a lot.

 

[bobbyking]

Naslund had a better peak

So did bertuzzi

 

[majormajor]

WCE really only clicked for a couple years before falling off a cliff. But WCE in 2002-03 was probably the single best season from either line. They scored 119 goals in the dead puck era! Making a 10% era adjustment, that's much higher than the 115 goal peak of Heatley - Spezza - Alfredsson.

Heatley - Spezza - Alfredsson scored up around 115 goals for three straight years though, and were around 100 in another couple seasons.

 

[SillyRabbit]

WCE was more dominant during their peak.

They played in the DPE in the extremely strong West.

Pizza has a larger body of work because they were elite for longer.

 

[biturbo19]

Even as a Canucks fan, it's comfortably the Pizza line. That unit didn't have a weak link at all. It was like...the perfect "formula" for a line on paper. It actually worked in the real world though.


WCE had Morrison in the middle, where he was a good player and an outstanding facilitator, but he was just that...a facilitator. Not to drag his contributions to making the line click...but he was just never that big puck controlling playmaking center Spezza was in the Pizza line's peak. Don't think the edge in physicality out of Bertuzzi makes up for that. Especially not with Alfie playing with the fire he did, while being a better all-around player.

Honestly, i think it'd be closer for me if it were Pizza line vs Sedins+ Burrows at their absolute peak. Though that trio was a far cry from the ideal "formula" for a top line. They just had such a uniquely demoralizing way of controlling play for entire shifts at a time.

 

[biturbo19]

Naslund had a better peak

Maybe...but notwithstanding, i don't think that's how i'd choose to stack 'em up for comparison in a "peak vs peak" poll like this.

Heatley is the Naslund comp here imo. Where Alfredsson is more of the Bertuzzi cohort. On the role they played within each respective line.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Naslund had a better peak

I recall Naslund lead the league in scoring for pretty much the entire season, and was likely going to be the Hart winner.

Then Forsberg went 'Mario Lemieux' the final couple of games to pull ahead in the Art Ross race.

 

[Fugazy]

Pizza line.

 

[ViktorBaeArvidsson]

I just like the food pizza so I voted for that one

 

[Trap Jesus]

Pizza's numbers may have been a bit inflated due to when they were together (right out of the lockout with scoring up), but it's still them. 3 amazing players. Morrison definitely fit in well with that line, but he's an obvious step down.

 

[Thenameless]

All three of the Pizza Line were good players. For a very short period, Naslund and Bertuzzi were better. If we're going for body of work, then Ottawa's line. If we're going for "at their very best", then Vancouver's line.

 

[Sting]

All three of the Pizza Line were good players. For a very short period, Naslund and Bertuzzi were better. If we're going for body of work, then Ottawa's line. If we're going for "at their very best", then Vancouver's line.

I...disagree with this. I think at their best, the Pizza line was quite a good margin better.

You can make a good argument that all 3 Sens players were better than their Canuck counterparts. Naslund/Alfy is a split for me.

I remember the Pizza line stepping onto the ice and the other team knew they were going to be hemmed in their zone for the entirety of that shift. It was magic watching them cycle and they were the perfect complement of players with their playstyles.

 

[Thenameless]

I...disagree with this. I think at their best, the Pizza line was quite a good margin better.

You can make a good argument that all 3 Sens players were better than their Canuck counterparts. Naslund/Alfy is a split for me.

I remember the Pizza line stepping onto the ice and the other team knew they were going to be hemmed in their zone for the entirety of that shift. It was magic watching them cycle and they were the perfect complement of players with their playstyles.

If you read majormajor's post #11, it makes good sense. A good case can be made for WCE being better at their best production-wise. WCE also has the X-factor of Bertuzzi being a physical monster during his peak/prime. Pizza line has no intimidation factor.

 

[Machinehead]

I mean, one of them is pizza...

 

[Regal]

I mean, one of them is pizza...

You mean you don't like trains?

 

[Machinehead]

You mean you don't like trains?

I'm from New York. I've had some bad experiences on trains.

 

[Regal]

If you read majormajor's post #11, it makes good sense. A good case can be made for WCE being better at their best production-wise. WCE also has the X-factor of Bertuzzi being a physical monster during his peak/prime. Pizza line has no intimidation factor.

02-03 was a weird season though. Mixed in with a bunch of low scoring years, the top scorers all had huge totals largely from PP scoring. PPs were obviously up in '06, but I think they were so high that a lot of players couldn't take full advantage of them due to spreading the ice time.

In '06, the Sens had 490 PP opportunities and 102 PP goals for a 20.82 PP%, while in '03 the Nucks had 419 PP opportunities and 87 goals for a 20.76 PP%. But the Canucks forwards played a greater percentage of those PPs and a very similar ice time to the Ottawa players:

PPTOI/GP
Heatley: 5:44
Alfredsson: 5:41
Spezza: 5:32
Bertuzzi: 5:30
Naslund: 5:25
Morrison: 5:00

And similar PP points, except for Morrison, who has far fewer points anyway:

Naslund: 54
Alfredsson: 48
Heatley: 43
Bertuzzi: 42
Spezza: 41
Morrison: 28

Total PP points:
Ottawa: 132
Vancouver: 124

Total PP goals:
Vancouver: 55
Ottawa: 46

Given PP percentages were a bit lower in '03, both teams had the same PP%, but the Vancouver stars spend more relative time on theirs (meaning they likely raise the total PP% a greater amount), the PPs seem pretty close. The Canucks had more goals from their three forwards, but Ottawa had more goals from their defense which the forwards no doubt contributed to.

Meanwhile, the Canucks played more at even strength:

ESTOI/GP
Bertuzzi: 14:55
Naslund: 14:21
Morrison: 14:12
Heatley: 13:52
Alfredsson: 13:40
Spezza: 13:20

While their ES scoring was again similar:

ES points:
Heatley: 56
Bertuzzi: 55
Naslund: 50
Alfredsson: 49
Spezza: 49
Morrison: 41

Total ES scoring:
Ottawa: 154
Vancouver: 146

Total ES goals:
Vancouver: 62
Ottawa: 59

So Ottawa scores slightly more points but slightly fewer goals in fewer minutes but ES scoring was also easier in '06 so maybe a slight edge to Vancouver again.

But that's just looking at scoring. A line also has to drive play. Both these years were before the years we have significant data for lines, but Hockey Reference does have ESGF and ESGA for each player:

Heatley: 76/47= 61.8 GF%
Alfredsson: 72/43= 62.6 GF%
Spezza: 58/35 = 62.4 GF%

Naslund: 64/58 = 52.5 GF%
Bertuzzi: 66/64 = 50.8 GF%
Morrison: 68/50 = 57.6 GF%

Now, Hockey References numbers coincide with plus minus which means they're likely including goals against while on the PP in the ES numbers for some reason, and this would include EN goals against as well, which may be why Morrison isn't on for as many goals against. I doubt Naslund and Bertuzzi were actually barely above 50% for GF%, but given the numvers used are under the same circumstances for the Ottawa trio and they fare much better, I think it's likely the Ottawa trio fared significantly better in terms of GF% 5v5. Both were good teams, and the top line so this should speak to the effectiveness of each. Interestingly though, the Canucks trio seemed to do much better here the year before.

As well, majormajor focused strictly on goals. While I understand the point is to get away from points gained on one anothers goals, this ignores the potential of them setting up defensemen, and Spezza's significant assist advantage over Morrison is not entirely due to assists on Heatley and Alfredsson's goals.

Looking through scoring logs, I found at least one of the Vancouver trio got an assist on 38 more goals by other players, and at least one of the Ottawa trio got an assist on 55 more goals by other players.

This would mean overall, the Vancouver trio scored or contributed to 157 individual goals and the Ottawa trio scored or contributed to 167 indidual goals. And that's with Spezza missing 14 games and Alfredsson missing 5 while the Vancouver trio all played 82.

I think Vancouver might have been slightly more productive overall, but Ottawa generally was more effective at ES.