Which HOH ranking project should we do next?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by steve141, Aug 4, 2011.

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  1. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    Since the consensus in TheDevilMadeMe's poll seems to be to leave the old Top 100 project as it is, I'd thought I'd kick off the discussion on how to move forward with the next project.

    Choose the project you would most like to participate in. Feel free to suggest other projects or discuss the merits of doing one over the other.

    My intention with this thread isn't that it will lead to a final decision, just to get the conversation started.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  2. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Retired

    The projects are more or less the same. Everything gets lumped together regardless of era, whether the player is active or long retired, without any regard to clear definitions or criteria.

    First, before consideration for any such poll, a player should be retired from hockey a minimum of five seasons.

    Second, various relevant comparables should be clearly defined. Acceptable adjustments, understanding of peak length, minimal longevity, etc.

    Finally, a small project to start and see that the template is viable.
     
  3. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    Personally, I'd be most interested in looking at the goalies. I feel that we have done the Hasek v Roy v Plante thing to death but never get to the goalies outside of the top ten.

    A serious project where we had time to look past career save percentages and GAAs to how they actually performed when it mattered the most would be enlightening. What is the appropriate rank of a Gump Worsley? Barrasso? Fuhr? Hextall? There are so many great goalies that it's very hard to say who should go into a top 20, and who's top 30, top 40 etc.

    Another aspect that makes a detailed look motivated is the fact that many goalies are known to be very peculiar personalities. The careers of guys like Plante and Dryden are not easily summarized by a few stats, you need a lot of context to understand their place in history.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  4. Hawkey Town 18

    Hawkey Town 18 Registered User

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    Top 50 LWs and RWs, separately.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I was going to make this poll, but I was going to make it in two steps.

    First, determine if people want to do a complete top 100 players list next or do several smaller projects next.

    Then if the majority wanted to do the smaller projects, have a discussion as to which one to do first.
     
  6. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    It worked fine for most people last time.
    So it's too soon to rank Lidstrom on a top defensemen list or Brodeur or Hasek on a top goalies list? I strongly disagree.

    I don't think this is necessary, but you are right that it would definitely be helpful to spend more time discussing comparables before the rankings are done.

    I thought the template for the previous top 100 lists was very viable, though a few minor adjustments are in order. I like more discussion before constructing preliminary lists (such as the templates you talked about). Also, there was too much power given to initial lists last time (10 of the top 15 aggregate players were added to the list everytime - it should be half at the most to make the discussions have more influence).
     
  7. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    goalies or defensemen sounds cool.

    active, retired, it doesn't matter. just pretend their career ends now. How hard is that?
     
  8. steve141

    steve141 Registered User

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    That might be the best way to go ahead. Again, I don't mean this to be a deciding vote, just a way to get the discussion started.

    Please feel free to put up an "official" poll once we see which projects seem to spark most interest.
     
  9. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    If we are doing it by position, I'd rather start with goalies or defensemen, because it's easier to categorize them.

    So many of the all-time great forwards played multiple positions. How exactly do you categorize Sid Abel or Doug Bentley, for example. Or as a modern example, Henrik Zetterberg? He's clearly accomplished enough to be a top 50 LW, but the majority of his accomplishments are at center.

    I realize Red Kelly and Dit Clapper had significant accomplishments at forward, but it's pretty easy to classify them as defensemen primarily. For forwards, I think it would get messier.

    So my preference would be to start with D or G and then move on to the messier forward positions. (That's if we don't re-do a top 100 list, which I would also really like to do).
     
  10. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    Top 50 LWs? I agree. It's about time we get Ray Whitney in on these all-time lists.
     
  11. plusandminus

    plusandminus Registered User

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    Two things...
    1. Should the "best Europeans" look only at NHL (=easiest), or should one try to (=far more difficult) try to mix NHL:ers with guys who never played in the NHL? I think one might do best to separate them. Perhaps even making one ranking for European's NHL careers, and another one for Europeans outside of NHL. (Some players may of course occur on both lists. Of course a guy like Peter Stastny. But modern stars, like Forsberg and Jagr.) Aftwerwards it might be useful to try and merge the two lists.

    2. Should there be some starting year? Like 196x or something? It was talk about that in the other thread, and I support that idea. I think the old guys already have been ranked. To me it's more interesting to see how we think stars of 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s stand up to each other.
     
  12. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    1. I don't see the point of doing a Europeans-only list and excluding NHL or non-NHL players. We included non-NHL Euros in the Top 100 of all time list - including them in a Euro-only list would be easy by comparison.

    2) Basically, you want to do a top list of players since expansion? A couple of other people liked it, but it's not my favorite. I really don't see how we could then handle players who excelled in multiple eras. I also see it as basically a less ambitious version of the previous top 100 lists already done.
     
  13. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Comments

    First and third bolded reflect evolution of the process which is the thrust of my point.

    Yes it is too soon to rank active players. Retired with retired. Active with active then wait five seasons before allowing the crossover.

    Let us get a full grasp of a players career with due hindsight. Also, regardless of claims to the contrary active vs retired benefits from the "wow/now" factor or gets punished because they are perceived as hanging around too long. Conversely late bloomers are initially ignored while shooting stars are favoured in active ratings. This tends to pigeon hole a player inaccurately. Example Tim Thomas has a Johnny Bower type career profile. Do we deny him a fair consideration by acting too early and presuming certain results either way or do we wait?

    Your examples. Hasek, Brodeur, Lidstrom will present a different portfolio once their careers are finished. Then we can look at a complete body of work.

    Likewise the young stars Crosby, Ovechkin etc. Do we make presumptions about health and career dips? Personally do not see the point of reading pages of pseudo medical or psychological tripe.

    Let the career have a definite end and then decide. Only way to treat all players the same.
     
  14. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    what do you have against RW? :p:
     
  15. kmad

    kmad riot survivor

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    Pretty sure messier only played C.
     
  16. plusandminus

    plusandminus Registered User

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    OK, I think I might take that back. It may be a relatively small concern compared to trying to mix the non-NHL Europeans with the North Americans. See next paragraph.

    To me, it seems a bad idea to mix Europeans from before 1970s or 1989 (mainly Soviets) with NHL:ers. I think it will be too difficult. For example, I can imagine most participants on this project being North Americans, which likely will bias things.
    For example, it seems as if in the 1970s, the best European club teams were as good as, or in some cases better than, the best NHL clubs. We also saw that the best European national teams competed well with Canada. Thus one might expect to see as many Europeans as Canadians at top positions as well as overall. There likely were several Europeans at the same top level as the guys immediately following Orr.
    The same would be true, perhaps to a lesser extent, regarding earlier years. During Gordie Howe's prime, there might have been Europeans of the same skill, etc.
    (I don't remember the outcome of the ranking previously made. Perhaps you managed to find a good balance. I also think you guys seem to have a great respect for the Europeans, and tries to judge them fairly.)


    Yes, I prefer since expansion. You already have ranked the older those guys, haven't you? I do, however, think it is easier to put the pre-expanion players on an alltime list, than trying to put the best non-NHL Europeans there. I also respect those with great interest in and knowledge of the early years, and if there are enough of them who want to include those years, then fine. But I would personally still find an from-expansion list more interesting.
     
  17. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Voted top 100 but not interested in participating if it is post expansion. Also, like C1958's suggestion about only rating players that have been retired at least 5 years. Need that time lapse to digest careers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  18. plusandminus

    plusandminus Registered User

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    To try to clarify my point regarding European players...
    Take a look at the table below, showing how you ranked the players alltime.

    Europeans:
    12 Hasek, 15 Mikita, 17 Lidstrom, 23 Jagr, 33 Fetisov, 35 Charlamov, 44 Tretiak, 61 Makarov, 65 Forsberg, 68 Michailov, 69 Kurri. (I may have missed someone.)
    Is it realistic that the 11 best players alltime all were Canadian? That the best European skater ever places 14 among skaters? That the best European forward ever - apart from Mikita - is 23 overall? When actually the best clubs (like CSKA Moscow) and national teams (USSR, CSSR) were about as good the Canadian?

    Trottier at 26, and Bossy at 29, were better than all the Europeans outside of NHL?
    Is Sakic at 32 better than all Soviets/Russians to ever have played the game of hockey?

    The only non-NHL:ers on the list being Charlamov, Tretiak and Michailov, when at least the 1970s and 1960s had so many great players outside of the NHL?

    Wouldn't it be better to completely skip the guys who never played in the NHL?

    It's a very Canadian list. It also, in my opinion, seems to rate guys playing pre 1990 (when the ex-Soviets started moving over to the NHL) a bit too high compared to players of the 20 last years. Perhaps the quality of the best players of the last 20 years is considered poorer than it was when Canadians dominated the NHL?


    I'm sorry if I offend anyone. It's not my intention, and I do respect your knowledge. But it does seem very Canadian. About 59 of 70 players on the list are non-European, including top 11. Despite the best Europeans having showed since at least the early 1970s that they were/are basically as good as the best Canadians.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  19. Franck

    Franck eltiT resU motsuC

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    I'd love to see a ranking of the 50 best European players of all time. The inclusion of non-NHLers only makes it even more interesting.
     
  20. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Like Who? Considering in 1958, players like Connie Broden & Bob Attersley were outplaying the best Europeans.
     
  21. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Consider a couple of things:

    1) The Stanley Cup has been around for over 100 years and Europeans only began to challenge Canadian dominance 40 years ago.

    2) Even today, approximately 50% of the best players in the world are from Canada. Goaltending is the only NHL position that is disproportionately European and that's an extremely recent development (not all that long ago, goaltending was dominated by French Canadians).

    3) The three best Europeans ever - Lidstrom, Jagr, and Hasek were still active when the last lists were put together, and active players tend to be underranked on these things (not to mention Lidstrom added quite a bit to his resume since)

    That said, I do agree with you that some non-NHL Euros (especially Makarov!) were underrated on previous lists. I would like to see 1-2 old Czechoslovakian players included next time (probably Holecek, maybe Martinec though probably not).
    Eh, there really was only a brief period of time when the USSR national team was close to Canada's level (the early-mid 80s). CSKA was probably as good as the best NHL teams in the late 70s through the 80s, but the other Euro club teams weren't nearly as good.

    [/QUOTE]

    Makarov and Kharlamov should be at about Bossy level, IMO. Fetisov could stand to be bumped up a little too (I've recently become convinced that he was a bit better than Larry Robinson).

    Part of the problem is that a lot of us put too much stock into the traditional Russian belief that Kharlamov was the best Russian ever, period. And frankly, he doesn't really stand out compared to guys like Lafleur and Bossy.

    And Vasiliev and Firsov (both on the 2008 list and would definitely be included if we ever finished the last one). That's 5 non-NHL Soviets. And it's really cheesy to count Makarov and Fetisov as NHLers here, when everything that makes them Top 100 worthy was accomplished outside of the NHL.

    7 non-NHL Soviets from when the game is over 100 years old? That's really not bad.

    Who would you add? The only guys even close to being add-worthy are Maltsev and Larionov of the USSR, and Martinec and Holocek of the CSSR.

    At first, we considered doing this last time, then we decided to be more ambitious. If it really is the "top 100 players of all time," you can't just pretend a certain class of players didn't exist.

    It's a very Canadian sport. Name one top-100 calibre player from hockey's first 70 years who wasn't Canadian, other than the American Frank Brimsek.

    The list ended up with the original 6 era overrepresented and post-1980 hockey underrepresented. I've noted this before. Doesn't mean we have to throw out the whole project, just make some minor adjustments in our rankings.
    Some people think this. I think they're wrong.

    Again, Europeans have only been a factor for 40/100 years and even then, they are a bit less than half the best players in the world today, and probably lless than that the farther back we go. So the most Europeans who should be on a top 100 list is about 20, and even that assumes they were 50% of the world's best since 1970, which clearly isn't true.

    As time goes on, more Europeans are likely to be added. Selanne is a lock to be added to the next top 100 list. Ovechkin is a lock to be added to it eventually (possibly even now). Chara?

    Like I said before, the only glaring omission to me is the lack of a single Czechoslovakian player from the 1970s.
     
  22. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    overpass found a great clip on youtube of amateur Canadian players dominating the Soviet National Team in the 1950s. I'll try to find it.
     
  23. plusandminus

    plusandminus Registered User

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    Thanks for replying TDMM.

    Some examples.

    Didn't the European teams actually often win against the NHL teams?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_games_played_by_NHL_teams

    1976 Canada Cup:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Canada_Cup
    Zhluktov, Novy, Maltsev and Marticnec (who I think you mentioned) placed high in the tournament scoring, some of them despite playing fewer games than the Canadians.

    1981 Canada Cup:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Canada_Cup
    USSR defeated Canada 8-1 in the final.

    1972 summit series:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Series
    Yakushev scored 7 goals. That's as many as Esposito.

    Swede Lennart Svedberg.


    I suppose we may not need to discuss this much further. ? I agree with you regarding some things, and you agree with me on things I wrote. You're aware of Selanne, Charlamov possible "glorification" compared to other Soviets, etc.

    Hearing your arguments, the list appears slightly less "Canadian biased". But to me, it still looks a bit too Canadian. Canadians, especially from the 1960s to 1980s time when Canadians dominated the NHL, appears to be over favoured (which you seem to at least partially agree with).
     
  24. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    At first glance, pretty much all those games involve the elite European teams (the Moscow based USSR teams and Kladno from CSSR), usually playing crappy NHL teams.

    I'm perfectly willing to accept that CSKA Moscow was as good or at least almost as good as a dynasty NHL team. But the quality of the European teams falls off quickly after that.

    Not sure what this is supposed to prove. All those were good players, but top 100 players of all time? (Maybe Martinec and Maltsev... maybe).

    Yup, most embarassing loss for Canada ever. Also the only Canada Cup that Canada didn't win (they won both the 72 and 76 Summit and the 84 and 87 Canada Cups).

    One thing to keep in mind is that the game was 3-1 going into the third period.

    And that's by far the best thing Yakushev ever did in his career.

    Good player, but Swedish hockey wasn't exactly great when he played.

    Well, Firsov is the only European from before 1970 with a valid argument to make the top 100 list, so I see nothing wrong with that. Like I said, a couple of non-NHL Euros probably could be added to the list.

    FissionFire actually made a conscious effort to recruit more European posters last time, but was largely unsuccessful. Hopefully we'll have more European participants this time.
     
  25. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    If the top 100 is delayed I would like to see top lists of the lesser explored goalies and defensemen.
     

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