Which franchise has "failed" the most: Toronto, St.Louis, Buffalo, or Vancouver?

[GMR]

How many players have the Leafs had since 1967 that won an individual trophy?

 

[wetcoast]

Take Toronto out of the running.

The other three are good candidates.

Sure for all time but since expansion it has to be the

Leafs
Canucks
Buffalo
St. Louis

 

[seventieslord]

Playoff wins per season since 1967:

Vegas 13.00
Montreal 5.15
Boston 4.51
Philadelphia 4.33
San Jose 4.19
Edmonton 4.18
Pittsburgh 4.04
Chicago 3.96
Colorado 3.87
Detroit 3.80
Anaheim 3.71
NY Rangers 3.67
St Louis 3.22
Dallas 3.20
New Jersey 3.19
NY Islanders 3.13
Washington 3.07
Tampa Bay 2.92
Ottawa 2.88
Buffalo 2.65
Nashville 2.58
Toronto 2.22
Los Angeles 2.18
Calgary 2.15
Vancouver 2.10
Minnesota 1.63
Carolina 1.55
Arizona 1.08
Florida 0.75
Columbus 0.56
Winnipeg 0.50

 

[Johnny Engine]

Playoff wins per season since 1967:
...
Arizona 1.08
...
Winnipeg 0.50

Just to clarify, this is broken down by franchise, not location, correct?

 

[seventieslord]

Just to clarify, this is broken down by franchise, not location, correct?

Correct.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Playoff wins per season since 1967:

Vegas 13.00
Montreal 5.15
Boston 4.51
Philadelphia 4.33
San Jose 4.19
Edmonton 4.18
Pittsburgh 4.04
Chicago 3.96
Colorado 3.87
Detroit 3.80
Anaheim 3.71
NY Rangers 3.67
St Louis 3.22
Dallas 3.20
New Jersey 3.19
NY Islanders 3.13
Washington 3.07
Tampa Bay 2.92
Ottawa 2.88
Buffalo 2.65
Nashville 2.58
Toronto 2.22
Los Angeles 2.18
Calgary 2.15
Vancouver 2.10
Minnesota 1.63
Carolina 1.55
Arizona 1.08
Florida 0.75
Columbus 0.56
Winnipeg 0.50

a lot of OUCH! on that list

 

[Hobnobs]

I'd say Sabres and Blues are the least fail of the franchises. I mean they have managed to keep being competitive for most of their time in the league. Sabres current drought is their longest in the history of the franchise. The only thing you can blame the franchises of is choking. Especially the early 2000s Blues and the early 90s Sabres.

Maple Leafs have been just as competitive but never reached final so I say its them. Add in the fact that they have the record for least shots on net in a playoff game is... brutal...

Its weird but out of the four franchises Canucks is the only one thats been very close to actually winning the cup. Losing by one goal in game seven versus a stacked Rangers is impressive.

 

[Stephen]

If we define failure as a measure of squandered opportunities, this has to be the St. Louis Blues qualifying for 41 postseasons and ending each with a loss.

To add some perspective, the Washington Capitals, who until 2018 were often cited as the symbol of playoff ineptitude, finally won it all on their 28th visit to the postseason. If the Blues had won in their Presidents' Trophy year of '99-'00, that would have been two trips more than the Capitals required. Instead, of course, they collapsed in the first round and have fallen short in each of the 11 attempts that have followed.

Since expansion, the Buffalo Sabres and Toronto Maple Leafs have each amassed a level of playoff futility (0-for-29) that the Blues realized by the end of the '99 playoffs. Vancouver at 0-for-27 is sitting in line with where the Blues were at the conclusion of the '97 playoffs.

I wouldn't use the Blues 3x Stanley Cup finals appearances as any achievement. They were in the expansion division and only showed up as cannon fodder.

 

[Hobnobs]

I wouldn't use the Blues 3x Stanley Cup finals appearances as any achievement. They were in the expansion division and only showed up as cannon fodder.

He didn't.

 

[TheSilverSkeeter]

I wouldn't use the Blues 3x Stanley Cup finals appearances as any achievement. They were in the expansion division and only showed up as cannon fodder.

I guess one could do the extra work to define what an "opportunity" is, but I figured that going with playoff appearances was a decent place to start, given the (admittedly flawed) adage that all you've got to do is get in. If I eliminated playoff trips where I felt the Blues had no chance, then yeah, those three appearances would be the first I'd discard.

Even so, assuming that all of the post-expansion postseasons the Sabres, Leafs, and Canucks qualified for were real opportunities to win (which, I mean, c'mon), the Blues' list could be pared down by 11 and they'd still own the record for playoff futility.

 

[Stephen]

I guess one could do the extra work to define what an "opportunity" is, but I figured that going with playoff appearances was a decent place to start, given the (admittedly flawed) adage that all you've got to do is get in. If I eliminated playoff trips where I felt the Blues had no chance, then yeah, those three appearances would be the first I'd discard.

Even so, assuming that all of the post-expansion postseasons the Sabres, Leafs, and Canucks qualified for were real opportunities to win (which, I mean, c'mon), the Blues' list could be pared down by 11 and they'd still own the record for playoff futility.

The Blues actually have a great history minus no cup wins. They qualified for the playoffs every year for over two decades. They're generally a consistently solid citizen in the NHL. When I think of them vs a team like the Carolina Hurricanes/Hartford Whalers who somehow won the 2006 Cup, I still think of them as a far superior franchise.

 

[Pominville Knows]

In terms of missed opportunity it might be the Flyers post-1975. What is it now, five straight losses when in the finals? I'm sure there were other years also with some opportunity, even though they much like all teams also had some down years.

 

[WingsFan95]

It's the Leafs and nobody.

In the 4 major sport context this is worse than the Red Sox/White Sox/Cubs trio in MLB which historically was the most profound.

The reason being that hockey is more open and for many seasons in the 70s-90s you had like 75% teams making the playoffs as oppose to baseball having just the 2 then 4 now 8.

To not even making a Cup Final in 50 seasons given all resources is immensely pathetic. But the organisation makes a financial killing and as such has ZERO pressure from fans.

The Blues are probably 2nd. No Final since their 3rd season with the expansion division despite constant playoff appearances and some pretty great teams.

But only Vancouver had anywhere near the money of Toronto.

 

[WingsFan95]

In terms of missed opportunity it might be the Flyers post-1975. What is it now, five straight losses when in the finals? I'm sure there were other years also with some opportunity, even though they much like all teams also had some down years.

0-5 in a 30 year stretch from 1980-2010.

Also 5-5 in Conference Finals over that same stretch.

Can't beat Leafs 0-5 though in Conference Finals 78-02.

 

[Lieutenant Bookman]

Given the size of fan base, the Leafs have failed the most people. They've also been the worst of that group in terms of on ice results since 1967, so I'll go with them

 

[WingsFan95]

How many players have the Leafs had since 1967 that won an individual trophy?

You know Gretzky-Lemieux-Jagr essentially wiped out 20 years right?

Anywho, Salming finished Top 5 in Norris 7 times including twice runner-up.
Cujo was runner-up and 3rd for Vezina.
Gilmour got a Selke in 93 and runner-up following year.
Ron Ellis was runner-up for Calder.
Clark was runner-up for Calder.
Potvin was 4th in Vezina.

The Leafs had legitimate chances in 93-94 and 99-02 seasons.

 

[The Panther]

Okay, y'all have convinced me that it's Toronto, ha.

I mentioned this in my OP, but it's worth repeating: Not once from 1967 to 1999 (32 years) did the Maple Leafs manage a .600 regular season. That is stunning, the more so because in that era having the largest fanbase with the most revenue almost guaranteed a more competitive team. It took a very special kind of ineptitude, organizationally, to do that.

 

[The Panther]

You know Gretzky-Lemieux-Jagr essentially wiped out 20 years right?

Anywho, Salming finished Top 5 in Norris 7 times including twice runner-up.
Cujo was runner-up and 3rd for Vezina.
Gilmour got a Selke in 93 and runner-up following year.
Ron Ellis was runner-up for Calder.
Clark was runner-up for Calder.
Potvin was 4th in Vezina.

The Leafs had legitimate chances in 93-94 and 99-02 seasons.

Okay, but think about what you're saying here -- in 52 years, for the franchise with the biggest hockey fanbase on earth, ONE GUY got one (fairly minor) award.

 

[WingsFan95]

Okay, but think about what you're saying here -- in 52 years, for the franchise with the biggest hockey fanbase on earth, ONE GUY got one (fairly minor) award.

Yeah, makes them real pathetic. But at the same time, Gretz-Mario-Jagr really did wipe out more than two decades of awards outside of a few slips with guys like Hull, Fedorov, Messier. That really makes it slim pickings for most teams in the league. Montreal after 92 for example I'm not sure has any individual awards and over the last 40 years for big cities I don't believe Chicago or New York got too many all things considering.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yeah, makes them real pathetic. But at the same time, Gretz-Mario-Jagr really did wipe out more than two decades of awards outside of a few slips with guys like Hull, Fedorov, Messier. That really makes it slim pickings for most teams in the league. Montreal after 92 for example I'm not sure has any individual awards and over the last 40 years for big cities I don't believe Chicago or New York got too many all things considering.

Messier won the hart, Leetch won the norris 2x and ofc Leetch has a conn smythe. Chelios won norris while in Chicago and Belfour got a vezina.

 

[Lieutenant Bookman]

Messier won the hart, Leetch won the norris 2x and ofc Leetch has a conn smythe. Chelios won norris while in Chicago and Belfour got a vezina.

It depends on what that poster meant by “too many” but Keith also won a couple Norris trophies, Kane won a Calder, an Art Ross and a Hart. And of course Kane, Toews and Keith all each won a Conn Smythe. They may not be hauling in the personal awards like maybe Pittsburgh has, but they certainly aren’t comparable to Toronto in the last 40 years either

 

[WingsFan95]

Not really fair counting Conn Smythes for individuals when looking at team success.

I am aware the Rangers with Messier, Beezer, Leetch had a few and the Hawks before the Kane-Keith scenario. But by many I'm thinking with 6 major awards (Vezina, Norris, Hart, Lindsay, Ross, Rocket) if you're averaging 5-8 of those a decade. Or 10-12%.

 

[Lieutenant Bookman]

Interesting, that is a pretty high bar. I’d be curious to know how many franchises have achieved that for even the last three decades. I know Pittsburgh for sure, not sure any others immediately come to mind without looking it up

 

[GMR]

You know Gretzky-Lemieux-Jagr essentially wiped out 20 years right?

Anywho, Salming finished Top 5 in Norris 7 times including twice runner-up.
Cujo was runner-up and 3rd for Vezina.
Gilmour got a Selke in 93 and runner-up following year.
Ron Ellis was runner-up for Calder.
Clark was runner-up for Calder.
Potvin was 4th in Vezina.

The Leafs had legitimate chances in 93-94 and 99-02 seasons.

How many times did Gretzky, Lemieux, or Jagr win the Vezina, Norris, Selke, or Calder trophies?

 

[go comets]

Easily Toronto. They are in a hockey hot bed with all sorts of income and a rabid fans base that is not afraid to buy tickets and merchandise and have had no clue how to properly build a team until now.

Buffalo is a small market and have done well with 2 finals.

St Louis hss had good teams but always run into someone better like the Hawks.

I would say the Canucks are 2nd, lots of income and a great fan base, but they have had 2 cup runs, and years of inept management.