Which forwards are better than Draisaitl right now?

[McFlash97]

Is this your idea of an argument?

Pretty dam good one too. Best player in the game. 89 points is simply astounding in 56 games.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Pretty dam good one too. Best player in the game. 89 points is simply astounding in 56 games.

It sure is. He's not though, when there is context provided for the statline... or when you see those defensive chops xD

 

[Aceboogie]

Is this your idea of an argument?

I am going to go out on a limb and say being able to score points is probably the most important thing a forward can do and a key component of player evaluation

 

[tapi]

Well Aho has what 52 points? Draisaitl is already at 89 points. That should give perspective for how dominant offensively Dr. Drai has been.

Aho is a great player and a cerebral talent but not at Drai’s level.

Aho is better. If Drai was in his shoes, he would not have any more points than Aho atm. On the other hand, Aho with McDavid factoring in on over 70% of his points so far overall this season..

 

[a mangy Meowth]

I am going to go out on a limb and say being able to score points is probably the most important thing a forward can do and a key component of player evaluation

Yeah but Draisaitl is a double edged sword. 89 points of scoring and he bleeds goals against like crazy. He might be the worst forward defensively in the top 20, at the very least one of the worst. Live by the sword, die by the sword, right? I think his D game detracts from the offense he provides and I think he also loses points in my mind because McDavid has a hand in so many of his points. Even off his line, McDavid still had a hand in 40ish % of Draisaitls points.

He gets this few weeks to show off, and I'm happy to change my opinion provided evidence. He looked great last night. I'd love him on my team, but I think sometimes I'd be pulling my hair out too.

I don't think he's the 2nd best player. And most certainly not #1. That's McDavid.

 

[Aceboogie]

Aho is better. If Drai was in his shoes, he would not have any more points than Aho atm. On the other hand, Aho with McDavid factoring in on over 70% of his points so far overall this season..

Draisaitl now has 30 points in 15 games away from McDavid. Give it three weeks, Draisaitl will have more points than Aho has all season

 

[McFlash97]

It sure is. He's not though, when there is context provided for the statline... or when you see those defensive chops xD

so your telling me Mario Lemieux was throwing out defensive chops when averaging 2 ppg's in the early 90's makes him a top 20 player of all then .... ?


there is no context. It is what it is 89 points in 56 games. You have no ground to stand on... [mod]

 

[Aceboogie]

Yeah but Draisaitl is a double edged sword. 89 points of scoring and he bleeds goals against like crazy. He might be the worst forward defensively in the top 20, at the very least one of the worst. Live by the sword, die by the sword, right? I think his D game detracts from the offense he provides and I think he also loses points in my mind because McDavid has a hand in so many of his points. Even off his line, McDavid still had a hand in 40ish % of Draisaitls points.

He gets this few weeks to show off, and I'm happy to change my opinion provided evidence. He looked great last night. I'd love him on my team, but I think sometimes I'd be pulling my hair out too.

I don't think he's the 2nd best player. And most certainly not #1. That's McDavid.

Wont disagree with alot of this. His defense is sketchy. Hes a solid defensive player 80% of the time, the other 20% in the games hes not moving his feet, hes a liability

Still, great defense ability compared to average makes up for what? 5 points?- then average D vs poor D makes up for another 5 points. So even a top defensive center vs a poor defensive center gets a 10 point cushion (give or take a few points).

Id Draisaitl is at 120 at year end, and Mackinnon at ~110- Ill consider them to be fairly equal

 

[a mangy Meowth]

so your telling me Mario Lemieux was throwing out defensive chops when averaging 2 ppg's in the early 90's makes him a top 20 player of all then .... ?


there is no context. It is what it is 89 points in 56 games. You have no ground to stand on... [mod]

[mod] I'm telling you that I think some of his production is pretty empty, substanceless. 30 points since moved to his own line, and McDavid was still in on 11 (or was it 12?) of them. I explained why, and all you have to say is Mario Lemieux sucked defensively too? Lemieux was 3 times the player Draisaitl is offensively.

I'm tired of this. I think Draisaitl is a fantastic player and I have enjoyed watching him every time I've had the chance.

 

[JuneauRiley05]

Panarin
Mcdavid
Kucherov
Matthews
Marner
Mackinnon
Pastrnak
Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Kane


Few others are debatable. These lists should grow after the next few weeks without mcdavid

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Still, great defense ability compared to average makes up for what? 5 points?

I'd put it more around 10 and I agree with the last thing you said as well. What a great season by him.

 

[Coffey]

Panarin
Mcdavid
Kucherov
Matthews
Marner
Mackinnon
Pastrnak
Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Kane


Few others are debatable. These lists should grow after the next few weeks without mcdavid

New Leaf fans on HF are always worth a chuckle.

 

[McFlyingV]

Draisaitl now has 30 points in 15 games away from McDavid. Give it three weeks, Draisaitl will have more points than Aho has all season

Draisaitl's already outscored what Aho will produce this season and we still have 1/3 of the season to go. I love Aho, but he's not even close.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Best in the league, not even close at this point.

 

[Deplorable Lenny]

My list of the tiers of superstar forwards. Probably missing a few guys. Didnt have a list in front of me

Tier 1 McDavid then a fair bit of distance



Tier 2 Kucherov/Draisaitl/Pasta/Mackinnon then a small gap

Tier 3 Panarin/Crosby/Ovi/kane
Tier 4 Malkin/Mathews/Eichel/Pederson
Tier 5 Marchand/Bergeron O'Rielly/Huberdeau/Marner and then a bunch of other borderline star players like Gaudreau Seguin Hall Ect

So essentially I have Drai in the top 5 fluctuating between 2 and 5 depending on how everyone has been playing. Any of those players have potential to just go on a tear and put up crazy numbers so it's still very fluid.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

My list of the tiers of superstar forwards. Probably missing a few guys. Didnt have a list in front of me

Tier 1 McDavid then a fair bit of distance



Tier 2 Kucherov/Draisaitl/Pasta/Mackinnon then a small gap

Tier 3 Panarin/Crosby/Ovi/kane
Tier 4 Malkin/Mathews/Eichel/Pederson
Tier 5 Marchand/Bergeron O'Rielly/Huberdeau/Marner and then a bunch of other borderline star players like Gaudreau Seguin Hall Ect

So essentially I have Drai in the top 5 fluctuating between 2 and 5 depending on how everyone has been playing. Any of those players have potential to just go on a tear and put up crazy numbers so it's still very fluid.

Barkov is underrated.

 

[Deplorable Lenny]

Barkov is underrated.

Sorry I knew there was one big omission. Maybe in tier 3 or 4 IMO

He is actually one of my favorite players. How the hell did I miss him

 

[SlickHands]

Yeah but Draisaitl is a double edged sword. 89 points of scoring and he bleeds goals against like crazy. He might be the worst forward defensively in the top 20, at the very least one of the worst. Live by the sword, die by the sword, right? I think his D game detracts from the offense he provides and I think he also loses points in my mind because McDavid has a hand in so many of his points. Even off his line, McDavid still had a hand in 40ish % of Draisaitls points.

He gets this few weeks to show off, and I'm happy to change my opinion provided evidence. He looked great last night. I'd love him on my team, but I think sometimes I'd be pulling my hair out too.

I don't think he's the 2nd best player. And most certainly not #1. That's McDavid.

The numbers don't match this narrative. For all the talk that Draisaitl is this defensive liability and and McDavid is an objectively superior 2-way player, I would expect to see some differences in their actual numbers, but they're nearly identical. McDavid has been on the ice for 60 even strength goals and Draisaitl for 63. McDavid is + 0 and Draisaitl is -2 in even strength scoring. Their shot (for and against) percentage is nearly identical (1% difference). I get that they've played together a lot and that explains why the stats are similar, but still, there should be some quantifiable reason for this narrative. Furthermore, Draisaitl is the only one actually seeing the ice on the PK. He's averaging nearly a minute on the PK and McDavid is averaging 7 seconds. Granted, some of that difference is because Draisaitl is actually a decent faceoff taker, but still, the way this thread has been going, there's been about a dozen comments here saying that Draistaitl is the recipient of all the better ice time, the better matchups, and so on.

 

[Highmarker]

There is a case for Drai being in the top 3.

I think McDavid and MacKinnon are the only guys I'd take before him no question.

 

[GOilers88]

I think we can all agree that anyone who puts up really good point totals on a team with any other elite players really isn't that good, because the truly good players can be league leaders on their own, without PP points and without playing on a line with other said talent at any point during a season.

HF is just a wealth of good, experienced hockey information. Not at all a half baked circus consisting solely of intricately designed mental gymnastics.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

It sure is. He's not though, when there is context provided for the statline... or when you see those defensive chops xD

So then you must agree if I say Pavel Datsyuk was the best player in the league from 08-09

 

[Aceboogie]

I think we can all agree that anyone who puts up really good point totals on a team with any other elite players really isn't that good, because the truly good players can be league leaders on their own, without PP points and without playing on a line with other said talent at any point during a season.

HF is just a wealth of good, experienced hockey information. Not at all a half baked circus consisting solely of intricately designed mental gymnastics.

Agreed. I hear Bettman is looking into massive penalties for the Oilers. They have somehow broke the NHL and have 2 good players on the team. No other player on another team has a comparablely good linemate or teammate, and none are getting PPs

 

[McFlash97]

[mod] I'm telling you that I think some of his production is pretty empty, substanceless. 30 points since moved to his own line, and McDavid was still in on 11 (or was it 12?) of them. I explained why, and all you have to say is Mario Lemieux sucked defensively too? Lemieux was 3 times the player Draisaitl is offensively.

I'm tired of this. I think Draisaitl is a fantastic player and I have enjoyed watching him every time I've had the chance.

Lol


3 times


400 point player .


Slither away with your blanket statements lol

 

[DarthProbert]

I think we can all agree that anyone who puts up really good point totals on a team with any other elite players really isn't that good, because the truly good players can be league leaders on their own, without PP points and without playing on a line with other said talent at any point during a season.

HF is just a wealth of good, experienced hockey information. Not at all a half baked circus consisting solely of intricately designed mental gymnastics.

I'm reading this with My 600lb Life on in the background with the contestant insisting she's totally sticking to the 1200 calorie/day diet but it's too many calories and the scale must be broken cause no way she's still gaining weight even though she visibly is. The "logic" and delusion are very similar to a lot of this thread.

 

[Krewe]

Pretty dam good one too. Best player in the game. 89 points is simply astounding in 56 games.

Yeah it’s absolutely unbelievable. Can’t even remember the last time that happened..... must have been YEARS