Which Flyers Players are overrated?

[blinds]

Unfortunately I don't think Giroux will be able to math his 11-12 pace until he gets a linemate that takes away attention from him. He's simply too small to be the focus of attention.

Look at Crosby. Giroux's playmaking can compare, but what makes Crosby so much more dangerous than Giroux is that it's almost impossible to get him off the puck, he has ridiculous lower body strength. Giroux, on the other hand, is so small that any defenseman can knock him off the puck or take any room he has away.

It's the same thing when Giroux doesn't have the puck in the o-zone. He's too small a lot of the time to get it back from the other team's defense because he can't get around them. It's too easy for a big dman to keep the puck away from him.

Other than that, he just seems less tenacious as a whole. He doesn't fight for pucks or go into the corners like he used to. He stands around waiting a lot. I'm hoping Giroux can overcome the new attention that the 11-12 season brought him, but it seems like he doesn't have the physical prowess to keep up.

I think Giroux would be much better suited in a role like MSL where he's the setup guy for a sniper like Stamkos. Obviously we won't get a Stamkos, but we need some kind of sniper and Hartnell won't cut it.

 

[Tripod]

As a whole...our team is slow. Watching the Pens/Avs game last night made me so envious of their speed. You can cover so many more mistakes with speed. We have seen it many of times this year already:

On the PP, a pass goes to Kimmo, fumbled, he takes a penalty for interference. On D, we have no, Reilly/Gardiner type. And yes, they are young and make mistakes but they also can skate the puck out of their end and sometimes LEAD a rush. When was the last time we had a defender that could do that? Even Pronger most times would shoot it at the goalie from center ice or our blue line to keep him on his toes. I hate helping a team like the Leafs more, but they have things we need.

Edit: Maybe a deal involving Gardiner AND...hate to say it...Liles could be good for both teams

Gardiner+Liles for Grossmann and a 2nd

 

[Embiid]

As a whole...our team is slow. Watching the Pens/Avs game last night made me so envious of their speed. You can cover so many more mistakes with speed. We have seen it many of times this year already:

On the PP, a pass goes to Kimmo, fumbled, he takes a penalty for interference. On D, we have no, Reilly/Gardiner type. And yes, they are young and make mistakes but they also can skate the puck out of their end and sometimes LEAD a rush. When was the last time we had a defender that could do that? Even Pronger most times would shoot it at the goalie from center ice or our blue line to keep him on his toes. I hate helping a team like the Leafs more, but they have things we need.

Agreed..our team speed is not up to snuff. They can skate hard in practice all they want and it should help with conditioning but they need some more skilled speedy type skaters that can create and push the play.

BTW..again they should have kept Carle..and moved one of Mesz or Grossmann to create space for Streit as well somehow. Holmgren was a bonehead when he created the D corps to be more stay at home to "protect" Bryz. He also undermined the coach by taking away (by allowing him to walk away)...one of his quarterbacks that fit his system. TOTAL FAIL..

Now he's back to square 1 trying to reconstitute the D to be a bit more mobile by trying to unload Mesz or Grossmann. What has compounded the problem is Timonen looking like he has two iron legs....

 

[Beef Invictus]

Carle could lead a rush, but once he was there he couldn't do anything.

 

[Embiid]

Carle could lead a rush, but once he was there he couldn't do anything.

People expecting him to be Paul Coffey, Al Mcinnis, or whatever offensive D man who could score points they are conjuring up in their heads are obviously setting the bar way too high with Carle to justify letting the dude walk for nothing.

He is a mobile D man good on the transition, plays heavy minutes, still young but experienced, not injury prone, and defends fairly well ...we still could have used that last year and this year.

What added value did Gervais, Huskins and Foster provide defensively or offensively last year? All you did is increase the boneheadedness 3 fold with that trifecta of fail.

Anyway...there doesn't seem to be much middle ground with respect to Carle. I was never enamored with him but I always saw his value and didn't necessarily think it to be overrated at all.

 

[1865]

'Rating' someone is so subjective that it's hard to truly be over or under-rated. Our players have proven themselves by and large, there's little reason for them to suddenly be over-rated during a period where every bugger is doing nothing.

But overall it's Brayden Schenn.

 

[Beef Invictus]

People expecting him to be Paul Coffey, Al Mcinnis, or whatever offensive D man who could score points they are conjuring up in their heads are obviously setting the bar way too high with Carle to justify letting the dude walk for nothing.

I never expected him to be any of those things. I don't think anyone did. What I hoped for is what Streit has become. It's not an outrageous expectation for your offensive dman to be capable of QBing a PP or shooting the puck.

He is a mobile D man good on the transition, plays heavy minutes, still young but experienced, not injury prone, and defends fairly well ...we still could have used that last year and this year.

Defends fairly well against mediocre competition, and is a detriment once we're in the offensive zone. We already have a lot of guys like that, and with Lavi's terrible breakout plan Carle would have had minimal benefit; as evidenced by him being of minimal benefit when the breakout initially broke down and he was still here.

What added value did Gervais, Huskins and Foster provide defensively or offensively last year? All you did is increase the boneheadedness 3 fold with that trifecta of fail.

None, but signing washed up vets who will only get worse is what happens when your org ignores defensive development while draining the prospect pool.

Anyway...there doesn't seem to be much middle ground with respect to Carle. I was never enamored with him but I always saw his value and didn't necessarily think it to be overrated at all.

Carle was what he was, and I struggle to see how he would have solved many issues while Lavi was coaching. It's a shame he was let go for nothing.

 

[Flyotes]

What are the qualities you desire in an offensive, PMD defenseman? What qualities did Matt Carle have? How much do you pay for those qualities?

You will locate the problem there.

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

People expecting him to be Paul Coffey, Al Mcinnis, or whatever offensive D man who could score points they are conjuring up in their heads are obviously setting the bar way too high with Carle to justify letting the dude walk for nothing.

He is a mobile D man good on the transition, plays heavy minutes, still young but experienced, not injury prone, and defends fairly well ...we still could have used that last year and this year.

What added value did Gervais, Huskins and Foster provide defensively or offensively last year? All you did is increase the boneheadedness 3 fold with that trifecta of fail.

Anyway...there doesn't seem to be much middle ground with respect to Carle. I was never enamored with him but I always saw his value and didn't necessarily think it to be overrated at all.

Gervais and Foster were supposed to be extras, weren't they? Huskins was acquired midseason due to injuries.

 

[Embiid]

Gervais and Foster were supposed to be extras, weren't they? Huskins was acquired midseason due to injuries.

Gervais was basically Carle's replacement when Holmgren had no plan B after his homerun swings...one of them being a pipe dream with Suter and Parise. The other was high stakes poker and a more understandable attempt. Foster and Huskins were extras but Foster was supposed to help out on the PP and fill that offensive (point shot) void that supposedly Carle couldn't provide. He was a miserable failure in that role and Gervais was also less than adequate as a stopgap. Huskins was more the injury extra.

Anyway, even Meltzer when commenting on the Carle situation basically said that even if the Flyers had to overpay for a need (PMD) ..they had no choice. Letting him walk for nothing no less should not have even been an option since free agent options were limited anyway.That was just a gross miscalc and incompetence on the GM's part. The only reason it seemed more obvious afterwards not to overpay for Carle was only because he was allowed to go on the open market in the first place. Then Tampa made that offer and it made the situation worse. He was still a need as far as a PMD and the fillins weren't adequate enough (b/c they were cusp NHL players to begin with) since the cupboard was already bare FA wise

oh yeah and again we could still use a player like him now...but yeah not at the open market price Tampa gave him...although now he's justifying it a bit more this year so far

 

[lancer247]

I hear all of the talk about the Flyers being too slow but I don't see how they are any different then most teams.

Above average:
Coburn, Voracek, Read, Gus, B. Schenn, Rinaldo, Simmonds, Raffl

Average or better:
Giroux, Vinny, Talbot, Kimmo, Streit

Slow:
L. Schenn, Hartnell, Grossmann, Coots, Hall

How is this any different then the mix on most teams? People are really stretching to find excuses, especially, for reasons to justify that Homer put together a bad team.

The team isn't too slow it just have enough finishers. It has too many set up men and grinders unless Vinny can fill the hole of sniper when he comes back.

Hartnell - Giroux - Vinny
Raffl - Schenn - Simmonds
Read - Coots - Voracek
McGinn- Talbot - Rinaldo

1. Vinny has enough pedigree that he demands attention which should take pressure off of Giroux.
2. Raffl gives Schenn's line someone that can carry the puck in the zone if needed.
3. Voracek is better then a 3rd liner but Read and he are their best two way forwards. Plus you find out what Coots really can be with speed on his wings but they are still good defensively.
4. Crash line.

 

[sobrien]

'Rating' someone is so subjective that it's hard to truly be over or under-rated. Our players have proven themselves by and large, there's little reason for them to suddenly be over-rated during a period where every bugger is doing nothing.

But overall it's Brayden Schenn.

If anything I think Schenn continues to be underrated. He's got 5 points on an awful team that can't score. He was 5th on the team in scoring last year. I think we may all expect Mike Richards because of the two players being traded for one another (and Holmgren responding to the "who does he remind you of" question with "Mike Richards"). I don't think Schenn will ever bring that defensive skill that Richards had, but I do think we'll see an inconsistent 55-70 points every season and great physical play.

Mix "the key cog for the Richards trade" with how highly he was touted for his time leading up to his pro career, and yeah you'll definitely be in for disappointment.

 

[KaraLupin]

Mainly just Simmonds and Read.

I think Read is at best a 2nd line player. Simmonds at best 3rd line, with some PP front of net usage.

The team is just in a slump, we know what they are capable of when they are going well..

And if anyone thought we had a good D core, that would be overrated too..

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

Carle looked like he was trying to shoot the puck with a wet towel. Worst power shot I've seen from a guy with his skill.

 

[Embiid]

Yup Hartnell is definitely overrated.....

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I don't know who is overrated, but the team doesn't have enough alpha males that can carry the play offensively.

Giroux is usually one of those guys, although he appears to be playing a little too passively this season.

LeCavalier is one of those guys

Voracek can be that kind of guy at times, but until tonight's game he's been off all season

After that, everyone else is just a good complimentary player. That's problematic when the top guys are as unreliable as they've been and the team has not played well as a team

 

[FlyingPhilly]

Yup Hartnell is definitely overrated.....

I think Hartnell has been overrated since the 2010 run. Really don't understand some people's like for him. I mean he is a great person, but player? No better than average-above average at best IMO.

 

[Sniped]

What the hell are we gonna do with Hartnell's contract... looking worse and worse every game.

 

[Embiid]

What the hell are we gonna do with Hartnell's contract... looking worse and worse every game.

Maybe Holmgren can buy himself out of his mistake...oh yeah he cashed in those get out of jail free cards already.....

 

[Laveuglette]

People expecting him to be Paul Coffey, Al Mcinnis, or whatever offensive D man who could score points they are conjuring up in their heads are obviously setting the bar way too high with Carle to justify letting the dude walk for nothing.

He is a mobile D man good on the transition, plays heavy minutes, still young but experienced, not injury prone, and defends fairly well ...we still could have used that last year and this year.

What added value did Gervais, Huskins and Foster provide defensively or offensively last year? All you did is increase the boneheadedness 3 fold with that trifecta of fail.

Anyway...there doesn't seem to be much middle ground with respect to Carle. I was never enamored with him but I always saw his value and didn't necessarily think it to be overrated at all.

Carle was way more valuable than some people on here think. Having him right now would definitely help the offense.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Carle was way more valuable than some people on here think. Having him right now would definitely help the offense.

Would he? He can't shoot. He relies on the pass, and he would be passing to a forward group having massive issues.

It's the same problem Streit, who is superior offensively to Carle, is having.

 

[CyborgLindros]

What the hell are we gonna do with Hartnell's contract... looking worse and worse every game.

He had some seriously bad play tonight. He likes to park himself directly in front of the goalie. So when the rebound comes off the goalie's pad he can stuff it right back to him. Even when it's 6 on 4 and the other half of the nets open.
Or how about that time he got a pass but nearly fell over trying to play it. I love Hartnell for the charity work and the personality but he's just been flat out bad since that extension.