Which 10 teams suffer the most from their market?

[LEAFSANDBILLSFAN]

Lol....irony
Pot meet kettle

I'm not disagreeing with this in hindsight I'm just still completely baffled as to your first post if you read through this thread.

Good Evening

 

[Leafmealone11]

I'm not disagreeing with this in hindsight I'm just still completely baffled as to your first post if you read through this thread.

Good Evening

I explained that in the second post already

 

[LEAFSANDBILLSFAN]

Wel

I explained that in the second post already

Well you brought up weather. You didn't really counter my initial argument as to why Canada and Buffalo are seen as the frozen tundra when half of the American cities in the NHL have similar or worse weather to Toronto and Vancouver.

I couldn't care less if he prefers the hot cities and I do not blame him. I understand the simplicity of known locations being more desirable than smaller cities. I figured that kind of goes without saying.

I just wanted to guage if he was clueless or honestly thinks the temperature drops 20 degrees in Canada when compared to the States.

 

[bert]

All teams in Canada, Arizona, Minnesota, Buffalo

Oh yeah the USA. What an amazing place to live right now.

 

[Pucklington]

I gotta put Buffalo worst. Edmonton and Ottawa suffer.

 

[Incognito]

A lot of people are mistakenly voting for Toronto here. It doesn't make the top ten due to the bad tax situation and the horrid media, but it's hard to argue that it's a bottom ten destination for players either. It's a high quality city with access to great facilities, provides lots of sponsorship opportunities, and the team has more fan support than you'll find anywhere else besides perhaps Montreal. The weather obviously doesn't compare to Florida or California, but it's not any worse than what most US teams in the northern states experience.

 

[LeafsNation75]

A lot of people are mistakenly voting for Toronto here. It doesn't make the top ten due to the bad tax situation and the horrid media, but it's hard to argue that it's a bottom ten destination for players either. It's a high quality city with access to great facilities, provides lots of sponsorship opportunities, and the team has more fan support than you'll find anywhere else besides perhaps Montreal. The weather obviously doesn't compare to Florida or California, but it's not any worse than what most US teams in the northern states experience.

Toronto is also one of the few teams besides maybe the Rangers who can also give the players they sign a lot of bonuses in their contracts.

 

[Puckstuff]

Los Angeles.

The Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk people exiting California made me think about those crazy insane taxes and needles on the ground

L.A is not the place it used to be.

From what I read on the internet mind you

 

[garbageteam]

Shocked at the low vote count for Detroit. The Winged Wheel is iconic but the city has been on the decline for a long time and while celebrities can live anywhere nice, it still doesn't register as anywhere near the most livable/desirable cities on the continent. That and they're totally mired in a long, difficult rebuild and I'd have to think they are currently in one of the lower pecking orders for attracting FAs.

Toronto votes are mostly homer anti-TO votes, they're way closer to the top 10 than the bottom 10 attractive markets for FAs. The bulk of the NHL are Canadians and many of them grew up dreaming of being a Leaf.

Montreal I think can actually be a desirable/attractive city for players to live in, it's got a lot of energy and excitement. I think it's the French and massive media attention that would drive it squarely towards the lower half. Vancouver is likely close to the top 10 if not in it. Outside of the California, Florida and New York teams (mostly NYR really) it's arguably the next most desirable city with a team. What the Grizzlies experienced don't really apply to the city in 2020. They're just in cap hell.

 

[amnesiac]

Interesting to see that MTL isn't getting more votes. I can tell you that a "bad tax situation" and "undesirable weather" are big here. Absolutely, at times our fans are off-puttingly overzealous. In terms of recruiting talent, I'm not sure if language is an issue for coaching still but I always think back to poor Randy Cunneyworth and the protests against his hiring by Quebec Nationalists. Not to mention that it definitely checks the "being in Canada may factor in." Anyways, glad to see it, but still surprised!

not to mention if youre raising a family and having to learn a new language

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Los Angeles.

The Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk people exiting California made me think about those crazy insane taxes and needles on the ground

L.A is not the place it used to be.

From what I read on the internet mind you

Jeff Skinner vetoed a trade to LA but took one to Buffalo. Taylor Hall. Buffalo was chosen by 2 of the best forwards who moved over the last 2 and a half years. And the Bills have zero issue bringing in top UFAs. Buffalo weather is completely overblown. This past winter was mild. Oh but you say hockey players are mainly from cold cities and want sunshine and dry weather!

OK I will just leave this FACT from the NWS.

"Overall though, Buffalo has the sunniest and driest summers of any major city in the Northeast, with enough rain to keep vegetation green and lush."

source Buffalo Climate Narrative (NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE, the top source on weather)


Buffalos hate is totally overblown especially as soon as a player gets here they don't want to leave. Marcel Dionne. Played in LA! But he lives in Buffalo. Ryan Sittler. Played in the hockey Mecca Toronto!! He lives in Buffalo. Numerous players once retired whether they were a Sabre or not come here to live post career. Besides the ridiculously high state tax the housing is laughable..in a good way. A couple mil in San Jose/LA/NYC gets you a f***ing cardboard box. Here? A huge mansion.

 

[MattMartin]

I have Carolina in both polls oddly enough. So many things to like and dislike at the same time.

 

[member 157595]

A lot of people are mistakenly voting for Toronto here. It doesn't make the top ten due to the bad tax situation and the horrid media, but it's hard to argue that it's a bottom ten destination for players either. It's a high quality city with access to great facilities, provides lots of sponsorship opportunities, and the team has more fan support than you'll find anywhere else besides perhaps Montreal. The weather obviously doesn't compare to Florida or California, but it's not any worse than what most US teams in the northern states experience.

Toronto's on the Canadian side of Lake Ontario; you guys get the dry/cold side and NY gets the snow side. I come from an area in NY that gets ten feet of snow per year, so to me Toronto's winters aren't that bad at all. Warmer and less snow than Ottawa or Montreal.

Winnipeg's winters are brutally cold, and when you think you're done then the freaking bugs come back (especially once you leave the city limits) and holy shit are the insects in Manitoba PURE HELL WHERE THE f*** DID THEY COME FROM JESUS CHRIST MAKE IT STOP. Don't know much about Edmonton or Calgary can't speak for them.

As an aside, Quebec City's winters are awful; a TON of snow and colder than Ottawa or Montreal. The city is so damn beautiful that I can forgive it...god I love that damn place so much.

About Florida...Florida is fabulous in the winter, almost state-wide. I really miss Miami in January, it's simply sublime. The summers...it's really hard to explain to others what Florida feels like in the summer. Unless you've lived there, you haven't really experienced it. If you're not within the range of a coastal breeze you are f***ed. California is totally different because the summer is their dry season and the ocean is cold, so you don't get the humidity, but California has its own climate problems.

Jeff Skinner vetoed a trade to LA but took one to Buffalo. Taylor Hall. Buffalo was chosen by 2 of the best forwards who moved over the last 2 and a half years. And the Bills have zero issue bringing in top UFAs. Buffalo weather is completely overblown. This past winter was mild. Oh but you say hockey players are mainly from cold cities and want sunshine and dry weather!

OK I will just leave this FACT from the NWS.

"Overall though, Buffalo has the sunniest and driest summers of any major city in the Northeast, with enough rain to keep vegetation green and lush."

source Buffalo Climate Narrative (NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE, the top source on weather)

Buffalos hate is totally overblown especially as soon as a player gets here they don't want to leave. Marcel Dionne. Played in LA! But he lives in Buffalo. Ryan Sittler. Played in the hockey Mecca Toronto!! He lives in Buffalo. Numerous players once retired whether they were a Sabre or not come here to live post career. Besides the ridiculously high state tax the housing is laughable..in a good way. A couple mil in San Jose/LA/NYC gets you a f***ing cardboard box. Here? A huge mansion.

Funnily enough, I was born and raised in Central NY and I get annoyed when someone compares our winters to Buffalo's. I feel like such a loser every time I'm like "WE GET MORE SNOW THAN BUFFALO DOES, LOOK AT THE GOLDEN SNOWBALL AWARDS!!!" and people stop listening to me halfway through the conversation because they know I'm a lunatic that should be committed to an asylum. I'll give Buffalo one thing; you guys get more wind in the winter than we do. You're flatter and closer to your lake. The one thing I don't miss from upstate NY are the grey skies. Perhaps it's changed since I last lived there for an extended period; I left about 15 years ago?

Re: the taxes: the state of NY definitely has f***ing abysmal property taxes and I'm not sure many people understand how high that rate is. I live in Massachusetts (not a low tax state in general), my house is more than twice the value of my parents' house back in NY and they pay almost double the property tax I do. Criminal.

 

[ScaredStreit]

A lot of people are mistakenly voting for Toronto here. It doesn't make the top ten due to the bad tax situation and the horrid media, but it's hard to argue that it's a bottom ten destination for players either. It's a high quality city with access to great facilities, provides lots of sponsorship opportunities, and the team has more fan support than you'll find anywhere else besides perhaps Montreal. The weather obviously doesn't compare to Florida or California, but it's not any worse than what most US teams in the northern states experience.

The biggest problem is there's no escaping the spotlight for an NHLer in Toronto (especially a star player). Would you rather be under the microscope and living in Toronto during the winter...or living at the beach with no microscope and not pay high taxes?

Sure like you said you can get the most amount of fan support...you can also get the most amount of fan hate.

I love Toronto, I've lived in the GTA (Oakville) and in the city (Church/Shuter) for years...but if I were an NHL player it would absolutely be near the bottom for me to play in. Why put myself through all that stress, especially when I can make more elsewhere?

 

[Pyrophorus]

Vancouver still can’t compete with Cali or Florida teams. It also has the worst travel schedule in the league lol

But #3 in the world for livability.

 

[Pyrophorus]

The biggest problem is there's no escaping the spotlight for an NHLer in Toronto (especially a star player). Would you rather be under the microscope and living in Toronto during the winter...or living at the beach with no microscope and not pay high taxes?

Sure like you said you can get the most amount of fan support...you can also get the most amount of fan hate.

I love Toronto, I've lived in the GTA (Oakville) and in the city (Church/Shuter) for years...but if I were an NHL player it would absolutely be near the bottom for me to play in. Why put myself through all that stress, especially when I can make more elsewhere?

#4 in the world in livability.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Ryan Sittler. Played in the hockey Mecca Toronto!! He lives in Buffalo. Numerous players once retired whether they were a Sabre or not come here to live post career. Besides the ridiculously high state tax the housing is laughable..in a good way. A couple mil in San Jose/LA/NYC gets you a f***ing cardboard box. Here? A huge mansion.

When did Ryan Sittler play for the Leafs?

I also think that its "I want to go to Toronto, but can't...so I'll get close"
Jeff Skinner, Cody Franson, and new Toronto homeowner Taylor Hall, all seem to fit this, Skinner said no to LA

Also like all American cities, the wealthy areas are very nice and safe.

 

[Lt Dan]

NY, Florida, LA will always have international pull, even when the teams are in the dumpster. Everyone else is doing a sack race... for 5th.

I have to seriously question what you said about all three of these here, especially LA.

But each of these three is a VERY different animal

Florida has an advantage over the other two with no state income tax
California, where LA is , has the highest income tax of any state

The Rangers are able to land the big free agent that most other teams aren't . I can't speak for Florida, but the Kings have never landed the big free agent and usually have to resort to plan c

 

[North Cole]

I have to seriously question what you said about all three of these here, especially LA.

But each of these three is a VERY different animal

Florida has an advantage over the other two with no state income tax
California, where LA is , has the highest income tax of any state

The Rangers are able to land the big free agent that most other teams aren't . I can't speak for Florida, but the Kings have never landed the big free agent and usually have to resort to plan c

How often do the Kings try to land the big free agent? They don't seem to be on very many NT lists. The Lakers have no issues pulling huge free agent talents, obviously they are a bit of a different class of Org, but the LA as a city has a lot of pull, no different than NY.

Wasn't really meant to be a discussion on tax rates, since we have enough of those threads. Florida has weather and Tax on its side. NY and LA have the glamor and prestige on theirs.

California tax rates didn't stop Karlsson from signing a huge UFA contract in SJ, or Shattenkirk signing in Anaheim, which is super close to LA. Shattenkirk was a player that basically forced his way to NY, because of the city - now hes landed himself in LA metro.

I dont often see it reported that LA is in the running for huge UFA, but maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like a place athletes in general always want to be - LeBron, Hamilton, etc.

Every city in the league is pretty well a different animal.

 

[Lt Dan]

How often do the Kings try to land the big free agent?

Quite a few times. The ones in the news were Brad Richards who went to the Rangers and Kovalchuk the year before that and they thought they had Chara and lost out to the Bruins before that.

As far as the NT lists, someone above mentioned that Skinner has vetoed a trade to LA. I personally had not heard that

They don't seem to be on very many NT lists. The Lakers have no issues pulling huge free agent talents, obviously they are a bit of a different class of Org, but the LA as a city has a lot of pull, no different than NY.

The Lakers are their own animal. other LA don't have the same clout our respect with free agents. Almost every NBA player wants to play for the lakers. The same is not the case for the Dodgers, Kings, Rams, Galaxy, etc

Wasn't really meant to be a discussion on tax rates. Florida has weather and Tax on its side. NY and LA have the glamor and prestge on theirs.

FTR: LA was WAY WAY WAY better weather than Florida.
Florida has the best weather on the East Coast, but the West Coast isn't humid, doesn't have hurricanes, etc

Taxes were part of the OP's post and are absolutely a factor.
If LA offers someone 7 million and Florida does as well, the athlete would make 13.3 % more with Florida. That's $ 931,000

California tax rates didn't stop Karlsson from signing a huge UFA contract in SJ, or Shattenkirk signing in Anaheim, which is super close to LA. Shattenkirk was a player that basically forced his way to NY, because of the city.

Karlsson did not sign as a UFA with the Sharks. He was traded to the team before that. It is much easier to re-sign your own player than a UFA
Shattenkirk was far from being a premier free agent and was pretty much the C tier of D men.

Other than Scott Niedermeyer, I can't think of a single premier UFA that the Ducks, Kings, or Sharks have ever signed.

I dont often see it reported that LA is in the running for huge UFA, but maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like a place atheletes in general always want to be - LeBron, Hamilton, etc.

I am sorry, who is Hamilton? Do you mean Josh Hamilton the baseball player. From everything I know the Angels landed him by outbidding everyone else who did their homework and didn't realize that he had some substance abuse problems.

To be in the running and making offers are two different things. I know LA has made calls on the big free agents in the past and it hasn't gone well

 

[North Cole]

Quite a few times. The ones in the news were Brad Richards who went to the Rangers and Kovalchuk the year before that and they thought they had Chara and lost out to the Bruins before that.

As far as the NT lists, someone above mentioned that Skinner has vetoed a trade to LA. I personally had not heard that

Karlsson did not sign as a UFA with the Sharks. He was traded to the team before that. It is much easier to re-sign your own player than a UFA
Shattenkirk was far from being a premier free agent and was pretty much the C tier of D men.

Other than Scott Niedermeyer, I can't think of a single premier UFA that the Ducks, Kings, or Sharks have ever signed.

Well Brad Richards went to NY, which I listed as a top 5 city, so it's not like they were losing out on Brad Richards Edmonton. Kovalchuk went to NJ, and they offered some atrocious insane Weber type contract.

Wouldn't Kovalchuk and Chara not count, using the same logic as Karlsson? Sure they went to UFA technically, but Chara was traded to the Bruins and resigned with them; Kovalchuk was traded to NJ (Super close to NY) and resigned with them until moving to Russia, then signed with LA when he returned.

Sharks basically had Tavares, if it wasn't for him wanting to go home.
Ducks biggest UFA signing besides Nieds was probably Fedorov in 03, about a year after he won the cup in Detroit.

The Lakers are their own animal. other LA don't have the same clout our respect with free agents. Almost every NBA player wants to play for the lakers. The same is not the case for the Dodgers, Kings, Rams, Galaxy, etc

The Galaxy have immense clout in the MLS, they had no issues buying and keep Ibrahimovic and Beckham.

NFL is kinda weird, since careers are so short and really good players get franchise tagged to infinity, while medium players have hardly any guaranteed money and just get released. I don't follow baseball so I can't speak to those teams, sorry.

FTR: LA was WAY WAY WAY better weather than Florida.
Florida has the best weather on the East Coast, but the West Coast isn't humid, doesn't have hurricanes, etc

Taxes were part of the OP's post and are absolutely a factor.
If LA offers someone 7 million and Florida does as well, the athlete would make 13.3 % more with Florida. That's $ 931,000

No, they most likely make more but it's not so linear as to just take 13.3%-0% = 13.3% advantage. These guys aren't regular Joe Bloggins employees paying taxes at marginal rates. There is an advantage but I'm not going to get into try to quantify in the thread.

I am sorry, who is Hamilton? Do you mean Josh Hamilton the baseball player. From everything I know the Angels landed him by outbidding everyone else who did their homework and didn't realize that he had some substance abuse problems.

To be in the running and making offers are two different things. I know LA has made calls on the big free agents in the past and it hasn't gone well

Sorry, Lewis Hamilton. Not really comparable since F1 doesn't have teams in cities, but he spends a lot of time in LA and has several cars he's always seen in. My point was just that the whole LA scene is attractive to rich athletes.

I'm sure we can go back and forth on individual players and trades and signings forever, but I always would have thought LA would be a top 5 destination, or rather the LA area, since that includes Anaheim. I just don't see LA qualifying a team that "suffers" because of it's city.

Where would you rank LA/Anaheim as destinations? I suppose we can agree to disagree, but it's an interesting conversation.

 

[Lt Dan]

Wouldn't Kovalchuk and Chara not count, using the same logic as Karlsson? Sure they went to UFA technically, but Chara was traded to the Bruins and resigned with them

Chara was not ever traded to Boston. he left Ottawa as a UFA

Sharks basically had Tavares, if it wasn't for him wanting to go home.
Ducks biggest UFA signing besides Nieds was probably Fedorov in 03, about a year after he won the cup in Detroit.

So with Tavares, a CA team lost out , again. Like the Kings did with Chara
with Federov. no ...not even close. Federov was 34 when he signed with Anaheim and well past his prime.
Scott was THE premier UFA every team wanted that offseason and I remember Burke's famous line to him that won him ovwer
I am the only team that can offer you
1) a max contract
2) you can play with your brother
3) you are in the same time zone as your parents

The Galaxy have immense clout in the MLS, they had no issues buying and keep Ibrahimovic and Beckham.

The galaxy bought Beckham
David Beckham Departs MLS After Earning $255 Million.
if all things has been equal and the glaaxy had not thrown an insane amount of money at him, no....

No, they most likely make more but it's not so linear as to just take 13.3%-0% = 13.3% advantage. These guys aren't regular Joe Bloggins employees paying taxes at marginal rates. There is an advantage but I'm not going to get into try to quantify in the thread.

why not? It's absolutely a factor.
I don't think anyone here would pay an additional $950K a year in taxes if they didn't have to.
One doesn't stay rich by pissing away money. look at how many retired athletes and actors are struggling to get by

Sorry, Lewis Hamilton. Not really comparable since F1 doesn't have teams in cities, but he spends a lot of time in LA and has several cars he's always seen in. My point was just that the whole LA scene is attractive to rich athletes.

Maybe as a vacation destination, but as a long time LA fan I can tell you that the teams lose out on the big UFAs more often that not.
Except the Lakers

I'm sure we can go back and forth on individual players and trades and signings forever, but I always would have thought LA would be a top 5 destination, or rather the LA area, since that includes Anaheim. I just don't see LA qualifying a team that "suffers" because of it's city.

Where would you rank LA/Anaheim as destination's? I suppose we can agree to disagree.

I live here and love the place. I live closer to Anaheim than LA. But I have seen the challenges the Kings have faced over the years

 

[ScaredStreit]

#4 in the world in livability.

When you're making millions every NHL market is going to offer great livability.

 

[McFlash97]

I agree Vancouver is a shithole.

Don't let this picture fool you.

Rains 10 months of the year

Dark and dreary for 9 months of the year

half that downtown is all residential towers and if you really go into downtown, its dirty as f*** and poor homeless people everywhere.


the Burrard inlet is an absolute filth.



other then that .. not bad.

 

[Gurglesons]

Canadian cities players don’t want to play in-Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal

American cities players don’t want to play in-Arizona, Buffalo, Columbus

Taxes without big city advantage-NJ, NYI

Players want to play in Arizona. They just don't want to play for the Yotes.