Where's the grit?

Northern Neighbour

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Feb 27, 2008
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I disagree most you win with skill some you win with grit, my main point is who would you add and take away?

You can disagree with me, but you haven't exactly proven your point that skill is the sole element that leads to wins. I showed evidence that the best teams in the league have skill, grit, and toughness.

And who could have the Flames added in the off-season? For starters, Daniel Winnik was one guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. I thought he was the type of 3rd/4th liner the team could use - tough, physical player with some skill and who is a very good penalty killer. I've always thought Winnik was undervalued by many.

Paul Gaustad would have been a great addition, although Nashville did overpay to re-sign him.

I've been a fan of Greg Zanon for a while. He's a gritty, bottom-pairing defenceman who could play in the top-4 if necessary. I'd take Zanon over Butler and Smith any day.

Zenon Konopka was another guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. He's a 4th-line centre, but he wins faceoffs, kills penalties, and is very physical. He would have been an ideal role player, and definitely an upgrade over any of the Flames' current 4th liners.
 

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I would say that Toews is a pretty gritty player as well as a highly skilled one. Ditto with Sharp. Versteeg, Brouwer, and Ladd all spent time in the top-6, and they're pretty gritty with some skill.

But those are examples of drafting skill and getting the grit as a bonus. I think aside from Brouwer, all those players originally started off as skilled draftees that later added grit to their game (might be wrong on the Ladd one though).

I specifically used the word determination as I believe nobody really classifies Toews as gritty, but more so determined in that he will play however style in order to win. So he can play skill or gritty.

Most times when you get a "gritty" player that is all they can do and we don't really want that as you can see from our last 4-5 years.

Btw Yakupov is someone that is skilled and comes with grit :D
 

Northern Neighbour

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But those are examples of drafting skill and getting the grit as a bonus. I think aside from Brouwer, all those players originally started off as skilled draftees that later added grit to their game (might be wrong on the Ladd one though).

I specifically used the word determination as I believe nobody really classifies Toews as gritty, but more so determined in that he will play however style in order to win. So he can play skill or gritty.

Most times when you get a "gritty" player that is all they can do and we don't really want that as you can see from our last 4-5 years.

That's fair. But like I said, you still need grit on your team to win games. You're original post basically supported my original premise - that the best teams do have gritty players. I never said that these players have to be top-6 forwards; I just said that teams need them. IMO, the Flames don't have enough of those guys - those grinders who crash and bang and who go hard to the net. It's great to score pretty goals, but teams also need guys who will score the dirty goals. The Flames don't have many of these players.
 

TheHudlinator

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Nov 21, 2011
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You can disagree with me, but you haven't exactly proven your point that skill is the sole element that leads to wins. I showed evidence that the best teams in the league have skill, grit, and toughness.

And who could have the Flames added in the off-season? For starters, Daniel Winnik was one guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. I thought he was the type of 3rd/4th liner the team could use - tough, physical player with some skill and who is a very good penalty killer. I've always thought Winnik was undervalued by many.

Paul Gaustad would have been a great addition, although Nashville did overpay to re-sign him.

I've been a fan of Greg Zanon for a while. He's a gritty, bottom-pairing defenceman who could play in the top-4 if necessary. I'd take Zanon over Butler and Smith any day.

Zenon Konopka was another guy I was hoping the Flames would sign. He's a 4th-line centre, but he wins faceoffs, kills penalties, and is very physical. He would have been an ideal role player, and definitely an upgrade over any of the Flames' current 4th liners.

You gave an example of 1 team that is physical and is doing well so far, almost all teams that are successful with grit players have players that are gritty and skilled adding some more 4th liners isn't what this team needs we have 3 physical 4th liners.

My point is we aren't a tough guy away from being great we are a Lucic or a Malkin type of player away good luck getting one. This team would have won 2 of the games it lost so far if it hadn't been for Kipper so I think what we really need is some ****ing goaltending. Pitts only had Cooke and Kunitz when they won the cup Detroit never has tough guys and they are always a very good team we don't need tough guys.
 

Northern Neighbour

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Feb 27, 2008
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You gave an example of 1 team that is physical and is doing well so far, almost all teams that are successful with grit players have players that are gritty and skilled adding some more 4th liners isn't what this team needs we have 3 physical 4th liners.

My point is we aren't a tough guy away from being great we are a Lucic or a Malkin type of player away good luck getting one. This team would have won 2 of the games it lost so far if it hadn't been for Kipper so I think what we really need is some ****ing goaltending. Pitts only had Cooke and Kunitz when they won the cup Detroit never has tough guys and they are always a very good team we don't need tough guys.

Detroit turned things around when Datsyuk transformed his game. He got tougher and started instigating hits rather than taking them.

The Wings also had Cleary, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Helm, and Drake upfront, and Franzen, Holmstrom, and Samuelsson were tough players. Franzen and Holmstrom, in particular, did a lot of dirty work in front of the net and on the boards. On defence, they had Kronwall, Lebda, Chelios, and Lilja.

The Penguins had Kunitz, Dupuis, Fedotenko, Talbot, Kennedy, Guerin, Adams, Orpik, Scuderi, Gill, and Eaton.

On the Flames, who's gritty? Glencross, Jackman, Begin, and Sarich. You could possibly add Giordano. That's it.
 

TheHudlinator

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Detroit turned things around when Datsyuk transformed his game. He got tougher and started instigating hits rather than taking them.

The Wings also had Cleary, Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Helm, and Drake upfront, and Franzen, Holmstrom, and Samuelsson were tough players. Franzen and Holmstrom, in particular, did a lot of dirty work in front of the net and on the boards. On defence, they had Kronwall, Lebda, Chelios, and Lilja.

The Penguins had Kunitz, Dupuis, Fedotenko, Talbot, Kennedy, Guerin, Adams, Orpik, Scuderi, Gill, and Eaton.

On the Flames, who's gritty? Glencross, Jackman, Begin, and Sarich. You could possibly add Giordano. That's it.

Butler, Widemen are as gritty as some of the players you listed as is Comeau and Stempniak isn't far behind guys like Kennedy. And since when was Lebda gritty? If that is gritty then so is Sven :laugh:
 
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Zenon Konopka was another guy I was hoping the Flames would sign.

Konopka is a guy I wanted the Flames to sign as well. Instead we re-signed Blake Comeau and later added Steve Begin. Matt Carkner is another. Anyone is an upgrade over Butler.

Cam Janssen was recently on waivers. He could have brought some energy to this team. Trevor Gillies is/was recently playing in the KHL. Heck, even Sean Avery would bring an element of toughness to this team.

The Flames are currently the softest team in the league. It's no wonder why we're the only team without a fight in the league. We don't scare anybody! :thumbd:
 

TheHudlinator

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Konopka is a guy I wanted the Flames to sign as well. Instead we re-signed Blake Comeau and later added Steve Begin. Matt Carkner is another.

Cam Janssen was recently on waivers. He could have brought some energy to this team. Trevor Gillies is/was recently playing in the KHL. Heck, even Sean Avery could bring an element of toughness to this team.

The Flames are currently the softest team in the league. It's no wonder why we're the only team without a fight in the league. We don't scare anybody! :thumbd:

So we are losing because we don't have a tough guy on the 4th line? This is crazy, are we soft? yes but a fighter isn't the solution to fixing this team.
 

Northern Neighbour

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You gave an example of 1 team that is physical and is doing well so far, almost all teams that are successful with grit players have players that are gritty and skilled adding some more 4th liners isn't what this team needs we have 3 physical 4th liners.

My point is we aren't a tough guy away from being great we are a Lucic or a Malkin type of player away good luck getting one. This team would have won 2 of the games it lost so far if it hadn't been for Kipper so I think what we really need is some ****ing goaltending. Pitts only had Cooke and Kunitz when they won the cup Detroit never has tough guys and they are always a very good team we don't need tough guys.

Oh yeah, actually, I gave you more than one example - I gave you several. And when you look at that Penguins team that won the Cup, they didn't have a lot of players that were skilled and gritty. Actually, that team had more grit than overall skill.

The Bruins and Kings won the Cup because they were big and physical up and down their lineup. They had some skilled players, but they wore down Vancouver and New Jersey, respectively. You name Lucic, but he wasn't the only one. The Bruins' third line that year of Kelly, Peverley, and Paille were very instrumental in the Bruins' Cup run.

Obviously, it would be great to have such teams. I just wished that Feaster would have tried to create more balance on the team. It was clear that the team needed more skill, but I think he went too far and completely neglected the importance of toughness and grit. It's a little surprising since Feaster put together a well-balanced team in Tampa Bay as he complemented Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis, and Boyle with players like Fedotenko, Modin, Andreychuk, Taylor, Lukowich, Sarich, Kubina, Cullimore, Pratt, and Andre Roy. At the very least, he could have added more toughness on the backend.
 
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:laugh: your blind hatred for Stajan is almost as funny as you wanting to remake the flames under Sutter. You think Stajan is equal to Roy :laugh:

You're the one that had him pegged as our #1 center, not me. If your team's "#1 center" can't net a 3rd liner like Steve Ott, you know you're in trouble.
 

TheHudlinator

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Nov 21, 2011
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Oh yeah, actually, I gave you more than one example - I gave you several. And when you look at that Penguins team that won the Cup, they didn't have a lot of players that were skilled and gritty. Actually, that team had more grit than overall skill.

The Bruins and Kings won the Cup because they were big and physical up and down their lineup. They had some skilled players, but they wore down Vancouver and New Jersey, respectively. You name Lucic, but he wasn't the only one. The Bruins' third line that year of Kelly, Peverley, and Paille were very instrumental in the Bruins' Cup run.

Obviously, it would be great to have such teams. I just wished that Feaster would have tried to create more balance on the team. It was clear that the team needed more skill, but I think he went too far and completely neglected the importance of toughness and grit. It's a little surprising since Feaster put together a well-balanced team in Tampa Bay as he complemented Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis, and Boyle with players like Fedotenko, Modin, Andreychuk, Taylor, Lukowich, Sarich, Kubina, Cullimore, Pratt, and Andre Roy. At the very least, he could have added more toughness on the backend.

Yes I agree those teams had grit but the reason they were/are great is that they have skilled players who are gritty just the gritty is about as useful as **** on a bull. I am saying that the reason those teams are great are the Malkins, the Lucics, the Browns not the Konopkas/Janssens or else they would have more cups.
 

Northern Neighbour

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Butler, Widemen are as gritty as some of the players you listed as is Comeau and Stempniak isn't far behind guys like Kennedy. And since when was Lebda gritty? If that is gritty then so is Sven :laugh:

So, all you can do is argue individual players but not the actual argument. I'm not surprised.

Comeau isn't gritty at all. He's a floater. I'll give you Stempniak and Butler, although does Butler really count since he hardly plays? Kennedy is feisty, gritty player. He's not Steve Ott, but he plays bigger than his size. And Lebda was a tough defenceman. He wasn't the most physical defenceman, but he wasn't a finesse guy at all.

Anyway, I'm going to bed because you still haven't been able to refute my argument and it's not worth my time having a discussion with someone who is unable to provide a solid rebuttal.
 

TheHudlinator

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You're the one that had him pegged as our #1 center, not me. If your team's "#1 center" can't net a 3rd liner like Steve Ott, you know you're in trouble.

He is only one point back of Backlund for the best natural center. I said he was our best not a #1 its like your a poster just not a good one :laugh:
 

TheHudlinator

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Nov 21, 2011
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So, all you can do is argue individual players but not the actual argument. I'm not surprised.

Comeau isn't gritty at all. He's a floater. I'll give you Stempniak and Butler, although does Butler really count since he hardly plays? Kennedy is feisty, gritty player. He's not Steve Ott, but he plays bigger than his size. And Lebda was a tough defenceman. He wasn't the most physical defenceman, but he wasn't a finesse guy at all.

Anyway, I'm going to bed because you still haven't been able to refute my argument and it's not worth my time having a discussion with someone who is unable to provide a solid rebuttal.

Your argument is grit makes great teams, I am saying that is wrong grit is useful when that grit has skill there is no way to prove either side what the **** do you want to do buy two different teams and test it?
 
Sep 13, 2009
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So we are losing because we don't have a tough guy on the 4th line? This is crazy, are we soft? yes but a fighter isn't the solution to fixing this team.

I'm merely stating facts. Calgary's the only team that hasn't had a fight so far this season. That says something.
 

Northern Neighbour

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Feb 27, 2008
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Yes I agree those teams had grit but the reason they were/are great is that they have skilled players who are gritty just the gritty is about as useful as **** on a bull. I am saying that the reason those teams are great are the Malkins, the Lucics, the Browns not the Konopkas/Janssens or else they would have more cups.

Those teams are great because not only did they have great, skilled players, but they also had role players willing to do their jobs. In the NHL, you don't win on skill alone. You also need guys who are willing to hit, grind, get to the net and score those ugly goals, and sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

No one is saying that you solely need grit to win games and championships. Get this out of your thick skull. What Flameaholic and I are arguing is that you need the right mix. You can't just have a team full of skilled players, which the Flames are right now. You also need those gritty, tough players. And again, I have shown time and time again that the best teams in hockey have that mix. However, as usual, you're too stubborn to totally comprehend the other person's point of view.
 

Northern Neighbour

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Feb 27, 2008
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somewhere south of the equator
Your argument is grit makes great teams, I am saying that is wrong grit is useful when that grit has skill there is no way to prove either side what the **** do you want to do buy two different teams and test it?

Again, that's not what I said. You're just too thick headed to comprehend the point that I'm making.

Actually, come to think of it, we're probably saying the same thing. You need skill and grit to win hockey games. It's a proven formula. You just can't solely rely on skill, which is what this Flames team has become - too lopsided in one direction.
 

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