Post-Game Talk: Where's all that talent Bob?....

bucks_oil

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I fail to see how what you said contradicts my point in any way? What are you trying to say exactly? That just because FLA decided to **** up, and that bottom tier teams like PHI and ARI didn't have enough depth so they were able to protect Reider/Manning, then the rest of the players VGK drafted must be equally garbage? Just because we only had to give up Reinhart doesn't mean other teams were similar. Take a look at what VGK got from MIN/CBJ/NSH/PIT/WSH/BOS/STL, those are all quality players wwho benefited from more ice time.

Would you honestly trade rosters, bottom to top, with Vegas? It's tough to say yes isn't it.

Most of our guys were not or would not be available in an expansion draft. Even some of our scrubs were protected by other teams.

I think I'm done with this conversation, but I don't accept that our roster is not capable of winning more than it is. There are gaps of course, but they also don't play as a team. They've checked out mentally, just like last year and that's enough to make the difference between winning and losing. (to the play in question... why isn't the bench yelling at Drai before Kane is gone?... it was clear he didn't see the threat... that's my point, it's not on any one guy... they just collectively aren't engaged in winning as a team... and I worry that it has become acceptable to play that way)
 

Drivesaitl

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Switzerland beat and eliminated Canada in 2006. In 2010 the team was a fluttering puck about 2 inches off from losing to Slovakia and playing for bronze.

You can't use a short term example and apply it to the NHL.

Its possible to elevate for short term and play with effort that can't be sustained in a limited games tournament. To play 82 game regular seasons is entirely different. Lineups get exposed eventually at this level. Unlike in Basketball you can't just play your starting guys most of the game. Hockey requires a deep lineup at this level and being able to roll lines. The Oilers don't. Any given game they are dressing 3 pretenders that get around 6-8mins. Check it out. Its happening here as the norm. Game lineups are already short imo. With any injuries theres no wiggle team and any player going down in a game hurts most lineups. When you're dressing 3 or more players a night that shouldn't even be there its a disadvantage. It also forces you to overutilize the rest of your lineup.
 

space321

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Would you honestly trade rosters, bottom to top, with Vegas? It's tough to say yes isn't it.

Most of our guys were not or would not be available in an expansion draft. Even some of our scrubs were protected by other teams.

I think I'm done with this conversation, but I don't accept that our roster is not capable of winning more than it is. There are gaps of course, but they also don't play as a team. They've checked out mentally, just like last year and that's enough to make the difference between winning and losing. (to the play in question... why isn't the bench yelling at Drai before Kane is gone?... it was clear he didn't see the threat... that's my point, it's not on any one guy... they just collectively aren't engaged in winning as a team... and I worry that it has become acceptable to play that way)

Trade entire rosters? Of course that's a tough call b/c we have Mcdavid. The problem isn't with McDavid, it's with the rest of the garbage. If you went in order from 0, 1, 2, 3... and asked "Aside from the top ___ players on each team, would you trade rosters with Vegas", my answer would probably stop at 2 or 3.

But you're right, I'm done with having a conversation with someone thinks the only problem is this team doesn't "play as a team".
 
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Drivesaitl

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well summed up by Dustin Neilson....

Ken Hitchcock is extremely frustrated with what he’s seeing from the Oilers right now but his feelings likely pale in comparison to what fans are dealing with yet again. Only the most optimistic of people would truly believe the Oilers could still make a run to the post-season if you are one of them, good for you! Their Head Coach was full of criticism and disappointment after a loss to the Sharks on Saturday night.

“When you put skill ahead of work you get burned, and there’s just too much of that going on, we address it all the time, we think we’re moving in the right direction and we just stumble badly,” he said. “It isn’t even what the other team is doing to us, we just shoot ourselves in the foot.”
While he didn’t directly mention Leon Draisaitl in that quote I think most of us can put one and one together and realize who he’s talking about. I see a number of people talking about Draisaitl haters and how in the end the MSM is going to run him out of town. I don’t think this is the case at all.
Draisaitl is a phenomenal offensive talent, especially when he is on the ice with Connor McDavid. If this team is going to have long term success Draisaitl will most certainly be a part of it but as a leader on this team, Draisaitl needs to know that other players are watching when he loses Evander Kane in the neutral zone or flies by the front of his own next against Chicago. Support players on any roster, in any sport, will be driven to work harder and do the little things better when they see the superstars doing the same thing.
So once again, I’m not running Draisaitl out of town; I’m merely using him as an example of elite players needing to be held accountable in all aspects of the game. Don’t get me wrong, the play of the talented German is way down on the list of Oilers issues, but him setting an example for others will go along way in the future of this organization, a future that he will be a huge part of. It is possible to really like Draisaitl’s game while at the same time thinking he can do better in some aspects of it.

The end is near

A few things I disagree with there, and Dustin Nelson, despite his claims, sure likes to go at certain players a lot. Yourself, and the former poster, Steven, that has become a Coyotes fan certainly quoted Nelson often anytime to throw shade on Drai.

In anycase the point about being a model to other players is poorly thought out as Drai is one of the better defensive and 200ft players on this club. He has value in both ends of the ice which is a rarity on this club.

I call bs on Dustin Nelson on the latter part. "I'm merely using him as an example of elite players needing to be held accountable"

For one, the 23yr old is already among the more accountable stars in the game. (not sure how the press here would deal with some of the efforts and on the bench behaviors in Colorado). But basically I take exception to the notion that overall Draisaitl is not a responsible player and that instead that his D play is inferred to be so bad that he in the opinion of Dustin Nelson should be made singularly accountable and speciously critiqued more than other players.
 

Drivesaitl

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Would you honestly trade rosters, bottom to top, with Vegas? It's tough to say yes isn't it.

Most of our guys were not or would not be available in an expansion draft. Even some of our scrubs were protected by other teams.

I think I'm done with this conversation, but I don't accept that our roster is not capable of winning more than it is. There are gaps of course, but they also don't play as a team. They've checked out mentally, just like last year and that's enough to make the difference between winning and losing. (to the play in question... why isn't the bench yelling at Drai before Kane is gone?... it was clear he didn't see the threat... that's my point, it's not on any one guy... they just collectively aren't engaged in winning as a team... and I worry that it has become acceptable to play that way)

You already know my opinion that the Vegas roster is much deeper, and in that way much superior. They don't ice five players a game that shouldn't be here and 10 players a game that are incapable of making positive difference in games with any consistency.

I agree that the team has checked out. They flirted with that before the ASG and now its predictably occurring again.

But as I've mentioned in other threads teams that do check out do so because they don't believe. They don't believe the team is good enough to win. There is no way this lineup is good enough to prevail over an 82 game sample against teams that are invariably deeper.

Again we have 3 players most games playing as little as 6-8mins. More if theres any injury trouble. This is alarming and should serve as indication of how bereft our roster is that we can't even legitimately fill out a lineup with what Chia has left. We instead have guys like Cave and Malone in there now in addition to playing Manning. Teams will sometimes play younger players sparing minutes in games to help them get their feet wet in a development attempt. That's not what we are doing at all. There is really no intent to develop guys like Malone, Cave, Manning. They aren't good enough and the effort is misguided. these are simply attempts to fill out a lineup with bad players. Most teams, even in a capped league, they have a point with every roster position, something that the respective players bring.

The number 1 failure, and where the team and org gave up is in management. They've failed to ice a credible hockey roster. We haven't had one since 16-17 and even that one had holes.
 

MaxR11

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A few things I disagree with there, and Dustin Nelson, despite his claims, sure likes to go at certain players a lot. Yourself, and the former poster, Steven, that has become a Coyotes fan certainly quoted Nelson often anytime to throw shade on Drai.

In anycase the point about being a model to other players is poorly thought out as Drai is one of the better defensive and 200ft players on this club. He has value in both ends of the ice which is a rarity on this club.

I call bs on Dustin Nelson on the latter part. "I'm merely using him as an example of elite players needing to be held accountable"

For one, the 23yr old is already among the more accountable stars in the game. (not sure how the press here would deal with some of the efforts and on the bench behaviors in Colorado). But basically I take exception to the notion that overall Draisaitl is not a responsible player and that instead that his D play is inferred to be so bad that he in the opinion of Dustin Nelson should be made singularly accountable and speciously critiqued more than other players.

well, you're entitled to your opinion and observations of the player. i do agree that drai CAN be a fairly dominant player at both ends of the ice, i'm not arguing whether he CAN play well defensively (because he can), i'm saying i see too much lack of engagement and effort... not just in the d zone but also in the o zone and neutral zone. i think THAT'S what pisses me and coach hitch off the most. it's that he can but he, more often than you'd like to see, just checks out and gets lazy AF. i see too many cr@9 lack of awareness, engagement, fly bys, cheating and lack of effort plays etc for my liking.
he'll have have games (especially away from connor) where he'll be so bad (making terrible lazy puck decisions, just not moving his feet all game etc) that he's actually hurting the team and almost better off just sitting on the bench. he certainly has consistency issues with mental and physical engagement. it's almost like he feels that if he's not scoring that everything else isn't worth the effort. he's got to change that mentality because he can still be very effective even if he's not scoring by playing a hard, smart and responsible game all over the ice.

also who?... stevef919?
 

yababy

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absolutely! we've all seen the dominance of Drai in the 2017 playoff run.

let's not get carried away.
That was a total of 2 games against SJ
If you watch the film on this you're aware that the points scored in the 2 games
were mostly luck and circumstance i.e. assists on goals that were scored by teammates on shot rebounds, not setups
 

Drivesaitl

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well, you're entitled to your opinion and observations of the player. i do agree that drai CAN be a fairly dominant player at both ends of the ice, i'm not arguing whether he CAN play well defensively (because he can), i'm saying i see too much lack of engagement and effort... not just in the d zone but also in the o zone and neutral zone. i think THAT'S what pisses me and coach hitch off the most. it's that he can but he, more often than you'd like to see, just checks out and gets lazy AF. i see too many cr@9 lack of awareness, engagement, fly bys, cheating and lack of effort plays etc for my liking.
he'll have have games (especially away from connor) where he'll be so bad (making terrible lazy puck decisions, just not moving his feet all game etc) that he's actually hurting the team and almost better off just sitting on the bench. he certainly has consistency issues with mental and physical engagement. it's almost like he feels that if he's not scoring that everything else isn't worth the effort. he's got to change that mentality because he can still be very effective even if he's not scoring by playing a hard, smart and responsible game all over the ice.

also who?... stevef919?

The player you are looking for doesn't exist. You are looking at and expecting perfection which does not exist. The closest 200ft players in the game today would be Bergeron and Crosby but look at the teams they play for and for instance Bergeron playing with a lot of D help.

Do you think Drai would have better GA stats playing his life infront of Chara?


As for Steve, yes, he's a Coyotes fan now. He said his goodbyes.
 

Drivesaitl

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let's not get carried away.
That was a total of 2 games against SJ
If you watch the film on this you're aware that the points scored in the 2 games
were mostly luck and circumstance i.e. assists on goals that were scored by teammates on shot rebounds, not setups

This is exhibit A for either poor or selected memory and poor takes.

Drai is one of the truly elite passers in the game. Which would be more evident and substantiated by assists if we had a deeper team and if Drai wasn't playing with players not finishing any time he isn't with McD.

Next the hot games for Drai occurred against Anaheim, not SJ. Drai was fighting a respiratory infection in the SJ series and struggled in a couple games in that series.

Also Drai led the Oilers in playoff goals and is leading the team again in goals this season. Is that all luck too?
 

yababy

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Don’t get me wrong, the play of the talented German is way down on the list of Oilers issues

why is it way down the list?
For 12 years now the Oilers have had one of the laziest, uncoachable, and unintelligent rosters.
Though I think draisait has hockey IQ, the work ethic and coachability are missing.
Give me a smart, hard-working and coachable team over sexy skill any day. This includes McDavid who hasn't seemed to figure out how to play when he doesn't have the puck.
 

yababy

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This is exhibit A for either poor or selected memory and poor takes.

Drai is one of the truly elite passers in the game. Which would be more evident and substantiated by assists if we had a deeper team and if Drai wasn't playing with players not finishing any time he isn't with McD.

Next the hot games for Drai occurred against Anaheim, not SJ. Drai was fighting a respiratory infection in the SJ series and struggled in a couple games in that series.

Also Drai led the Oilers in playoff goals and is leading the team again in goals this season. Is that all luck too?

that's circumstance - playing with McDavid.
when Draisaitl is 5 on 5 without McDavid he goes into a cocoon.

The Oilers don't win because the two best players don't think it's important to play defence - and it trickles down
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

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that's circumstance - playing with McDavid.
when Draisaitl is 5 on 5 without McDavid he goes into a cocoon.

The Oilers don't win because the two best players don't think it's important to play defence - and it trickles down
The Oilers don't win because 75% of the roster wouldn't make most other NHL lineups.

And if you include the front office that number skyrockets into the 90s.
 

yababy

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The Oilers don't win because 75% of the roster wouldn't make most other NHL lineups.

And if you include the front office that number skyrockets into the 90s.

If Vegas were losing games you'd say the same thing about their team. A bunch if guys who should be in the AHL. But work ethic and coaching win them games.
 
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Drivesaitl

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The Oilers don't win because 75% of the roster wouldn't make most other NHL lineups.

And if you include the front office that number skyrockets into the 90s.

I should continue to be amazed that theres people that watch this games and follow the org and are left with the impression that the main problems on this club are McD and Drai.

hooboy
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

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If Vegas were losing games you'd say the same thing about their team. A bunch if guys who should be in the AHL. But work ethic and coaching win them games.
Vegas had a great year last year because they were motivated and still managed to snag a bunch of NHLers from other teams that were too stupid to protect (Notice that the player they got from the Oilers never suited up for them?). The fact that an expansion team has more depth than one that's drafted high for 12 years is all you need to know.

There's a very distinct difference between Vegas and the Oilers. The Oilers had a great year and were content to sit on their laurels. Vegas had a great year and decided to add players that could help.

Would any roster in the league have Kassian or Rattie or Reider on their top line?

Nope.
 

bucks_oil

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Trade entire rosters? Of course that's a tough call b/c we have Mcdavid. The problem isn't with McDavid, it's with the rest of the garbage. If you went in order from 0, 1, 2, 3... and asked "Aside from the top ___ players on each team, would you trade rosters with Vegas", my answer would probably stop at 2 or 3.

But you're right, I'm done with having a conversation with someone thinks the only problem is this team doesn't "play as a team".

I'd prefer you not put words in my mouth. I've been entirely civil in every post in this thread AND I'm a huge Drai fan, and yet some of the responses have been a bit... emotional. I'd like to point out with emphasis.

There are gaps of course, but they also don't play as a team.

but anyway... anyone who knows my posts know I'm in the "eternal optimist, defend the team and it's players" camp. And I can defend Drai as well (and in fact I DID defend him in my own post... as in: why aren't other players on the bench screaming at him BEFORE Kane sneaks by?... that's what I mean by engaged and as a team).

My concern is that there is, yes, a deficit of supporting skill on this team, but there is STILL a deficit of leadership... and that means that devoid of vet leadership, it falls on a very few young shoulders who also happen to be our best players... just as it did when Hall and Ebs were here and we saw how that panned out.
 

space321

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I'd prefer you not put words in my mouth. I've been entirely civil in every post in this thread AND I'm a huge Drai fan, and yet some of the responses have been a bit... emotional. I'd like to point out with emphasis.



but anyway... anyone who knows my posts know I'm in the "eternal optimist, defend the team and it's players" camp. And I can defend Drai as well (and in fact I DID defend him in my own post... as in: why aren't other players on the bench screaming at him BEFORE Kane sneaks by?... that's what I mean by engaged and as a team).

My concern is that there is, yes, a deficit of supporting skill on this team, but there is STILL a deficit of leadership... and that means that devoid of vet leadership, it falls on a very few young shoulders who also happen to be our best players... just as it did when Hall and Ebs were here and we saw how that panned out.

We saw exactly how that panned out, i.e. people identified Hall and Eberle as the problem and then were happy that we shipped them out. And now we're wondering why this team has no depth. Now the same is happening to Draisaitl, and dare I say, eventually will happen to McDavid? This team is lacking skill and everything else stems as a result of that. How do you expect the team to be engaged when they f***ing suck? They can be engaged 200% night in night out and we'd still be nowhere near to contending. Engagement comes from WINNING. Winning comes from SKILL.

That's what happened to Hall and Eberle, it wasn't a lack of "vet leadership", it was a lack of good players. Hall and Ebs had plenty of "vet leadership" around them, like Ference, Horcoff, Hemsky, etc. Hall and Ebs took all the blame (and even today there are still idiots who think Hall was a problem), and LOOK AT HOW THAT PANNED OUT. This isn't rocket science.

Also you still aren't able to refute that Vegas is infinitely more skilled and deeper than the Oilers.
 

bucks_oil

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You already know my opinion that the Vegas roster is much deeper, and in that way much superior. They don't ice five players a game that shouldn't be here and 10 players a game that are incapable of making positive difference in games with any consistency.

I agree that the team has checked out. They flirted with that before the ASG and now its predictably occurring again.

But as I've mentioned in other threads teams that do check out do so because they don't believe. They don't believe the team is good enough to win. There is no way this lineup is good enough to prevail over an 82 game sample against teams that are invariably deeper.

Again we have 3 players most games playing as little as 6-8mins. More if theres any injury trouble. This is alarming and should serve as indication of how bereft our roster is that we can't even legitimately fill out a lineup with what Chia has left. We instead have guys like Cave and Malone in there now in addition to playing Manning. Teams will sometimes play younger players sparing minutes in games to help them get their feet wet in a development attempt. That's not what we are doing at all. There is really no intent to develop guys like Malone, Cave, Manning. They aren't good enough and the effort is misguided. these are simply attempts to fill out a lineup with bad players. Most teams, even in a capped league, they have a point with every roster position, something that the respective players bring.

The number 1 failure, and where the team and org gave up is in management. They've failed to ice a credible hockey roster. We haven't had one since 16-17 and even that one had holes.

I don't disagree with any of that. But we have ~50% of this roster that were not, or would not, be available to a Vegas. They had 0%. And they created a team. How much of it is on good GM-ing, good coaching, or to be honest, good honest leadership is a matter of debate. I'm sure all of the above.

We still need (after Connor, who I think is a great leader) to have more players who play the game the right way and can be a positive leadership force... one that doesn't sulk or sag... and makes the players around them better. I think Drai can be one of those guys, but he's also admitted (and McLellan commented too) that he can be very hard on himself... to the point that it's not productive.

We can't have our leaders checking out because they get frustrated or don't believe anymore... I'm sorry that's just contradictory. I'm not saying you think Drai has, and I'm not saying I think he as either... but a teammate, especially a low-talent grinder who can't afford to ever coast... might think so watching that play. And moreover, on a GOOD TEAM, that play wouldn't happen (as often as it does), not because of talent, but because the guys trust each other enough to instruct each other (the bench or a teammate should have been screaming "Drai, trailer!").

I worry we don't have that culture and until we do, we won't win, regardless of talent.
 

Drivesaitl

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I don't disagree with any of that. But we have ~50% of this roster that were not, or would not, be available to a Vegas. They had 0%. And they created a team. How much of it is on good GM-ing, good coaching, or to be honest, good honest leadership is a matter of debate. I'm sure all of the above.

We still need (after Connor, who I think is a great leader) to have more players who play the game the right way and can be a positive leadership force... one that doesn't sulk or sag... and makes the players around them better. I think Drai can be one of those guys, but he's also admitted (and McLellan commented too) that he can be very hard on himself... to the point that it's not productive.

We can't have our leaders checking out because they get frustrated or don't believe anymore... I'm sorry that's just contradictory. I'm not saying you think Drai has, and I'm not saying I think he as either... but a teammate, especially a low-talent grinder who can't afford to ever coast... might think so watching that play. And moreover, on a GOOD TEAM, that play wouldn't happen (as often as it does), not because of talent, but because the guys trust each other enough to instruct each other (the bench or a teammate should have been screaming "Drai, trailer!").

I worry we don't have that culture and until we do, we won't win, regardless of talent.

Ask yourself one simple question. Regardless of how the players were acquired/protected etc how many players from Edmonton would make the Vegas roster. I say around 6. (Including cap considerations) There are up to 15 Vegas players that would make roster here. At least a dozen.

Take a long look at the Vegas roster without throwing shade at it. Their success is not incidental, they are a well managed club that had a PLAN of the type of team they would put together and what ingredients they needed to compete in the WC. They obviously scouted better. But they PICK and acquire players that fit their schemes. They know as an org what team they want and what they will accomplish on the ice. The winning starts in the scouting, in the management, in the procurement, obviously.
 

MaxR11

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let's not get carried away.
That was a total of 2 games against SJ
If you watch the film on this you're aware that the points scored in the 2 games
were mostly luck and circumstance i.e. assists on goals that were scored by teammates on shot rebounds, not setups

you're not wrong... i'm trying to throw drivesaitl a bone. ya he had a few good games there and for the most part was solid enough.
 

MaxR11

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The player you are looking for doesn't exist. You are looking at and expecting perfection which does not exist. The closest 200ft players in the game today would be Bergeron and Crosby but look at the teams they play for and for instance Bergeron playing with a lot of D help.

Do you think Drai would have better GA stats playing his life infront of Chara?


As for Steve, yes, he's a Coyotes fan now. He said his goodbyes.

not asking for perfection. asking for consistent effort and engagement. too much checking out and lack of effort for my liking as i've said.

odd... he's not really a coyotes fan now is he? lol, wut? if anything i'd assume he'd be a devs fan...
 

Drivesaitl

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not asking for perfection. asking for consistent effort and engagement. too much checking out and lack of effort for my liking as i've said.

odd... he's not really a coyotes fan now is he? lol, wut? if anything i'd assume he'd be a devs fan...

Couldn't figure it out either. Its odd to switch to Arizona. I mean that's generally pretty poor prognosis there. I'm not into switching but Winnipeg, Vegas, SJ, those would be the hot bets.

As for effort its very rare in the pro sporting world that you actually get consistent effort, from anybody. But the NHL season and playoffs is largely seen as a battle of attrition.

Even in a sport like Tennis the pro tour players feel their are way too many tournaments and they cannot give their best in every game. Its a well known and established problem. As a star player on a team like this the reality is you try to cover for the team deficits as much, and as long as you can and then you start hitting a wall and seeing the leaks more. Drai has prevented a lot of GA this season. Does he still contribute some questionable plays? Sure? Does he care enough to get better? sure.

Does any player on the bench look more impacted by losing than connor or Leon? These players care.
 

MaxR11

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I should continue to be amazed that theres people that watch this games and follow the org and are left with the impression that the main problems on this club are McD and Drai.

hooboy

defintiely not main problem. just one of many problems... no doubt, someone like connor makes up for some defensive disengagement and lack of awareness sometimes 100x over because he's so great. drai has also been a net positive obviously because of outstanding production... but both... especially drai, can stand to be a better leader by example as far as responsible play and engagement on defence and playing the right way all over the ice... not just offence.
 

KeithIsActuallyBad

You thrust your pelvis, huh!
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not asking for perfection. asking for consistent effort and engagement. too much checking out and lack of effort for my liking as i've said.

odd... he's not really a coyotes fan now is he? lol, wut? if anything i'd assume he'd be a devs fan...
Literally every NHL player makes mistakes. Even Crosby.
 

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