Where would you rather the Montreal Canadiens finish this year?

Where would you rather finish at the end of the regular season?


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montreal

Go Habs Go
Mar 21, 2002
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Yes, yes i am suggesting that !! There are some pretty ridiculous posters in here. So yes i am

have you seen anyone say that, cause I don't think i've ever seen a poster say they should tell the players not to work hard. Now if they said trade for Fucale and make him the starter that would be obvious tanking. But seems like most are just saying don't trade picks/prospects, trade some vets like Petry, Tatar, Shaw while they are at peak value.
 

Adriatic

Registered User
Feb 27, 2004
6,523
4,084
Whatever we gotta do to get Kakko. That's all I want.
 
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CHaracter79

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
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With a middle of the pack strategy and a few holes preventing us to be better in the short term, another tank year could taste very sweet if we get another top 10 pick and a shot at a lottery win!

I get the Pride/Rebound year where we are too legit to tank when healthy. But now is the time to squash the middle of the pack strategy. It's not a smart road to go down in terms of building a potential cup contender for futures years. It makes some fans and the owner happy though cause they believe in hope over reality
you could also trade all the old guys and stock up on draft picks and prospects and then even draft someone like mcdavid.. but still not be good enough to even make the playoffs.

they arent far off. need 2 dmen and one more real good player up front. who knows where he or they will come from.. but tanking doesnt always work. washington took them 15 years to get that cup. buffalo nothing after 12 years. toronto. edmonton. it doesnt always work..
 
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Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
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you could also trade all the old guys and stock up on draft picks and prospects and then even draft someone like mcdavid.. but still not be good enough to even make the playoffs.

they arent far off. need 2 dmen and one more real good player up front. who knows where he or they will come from.. but tanking doesnt always work. washington took them 15 years to get that cup. buffalo nothing after 12 years. toronto. edmonton. it doesnt always work..

Agreed. Price/Weber/Gallagher and everybody under Gallagher's age would be my core. I might consider keeping one of Petry, Byron, Tatar but two of them got to go (Buy low, sell high when they are trending well). However, if Petry is willing to move to the left side and he is effective in that role, that changes things for me. Then it comes down to picking one of Byron and Tatar and depending on what we are offered, I would trade both.

I call it an accelerated rebuild. We have our own picks and what we could get for expiring contracts/vets like Petry, Byron, Tatar, Shaw, Benn. Take advantage of the situation while you can... when players are trending well. Trying to trade them for value when they are not trending well don't turn out good usually.
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
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How did Toronto make their luck? It took zero scouting skill or strategy to select Matthews or their other top-8 picks, Marner, Kadri, and Nylander. Their only accomplishment was 1) Sucking for long enough to get these players; and 2) Sucking during good drafts.

Toronto's management did nothing that plenty of other teams tried to do. They're good now for the simple reason that they were bad for a very long time.

The only credit I give them in the luck of getting Matthews is keeping Nylander in the AHL for as long as they could and liquidating Kessel and Phaneuf on low returns. Heck, they still have $1.2M in cap hit on the Kessel trade. It was clear that they wanted the best pick possible. Took them over a decade to come to their senses though. Many years being middle of the pack.

Habs are heading in that direction if we have too much attachment to this "make the playoffs where anything can happen" strategy. It's a fools game
 

Rapala

Registered User
Mar 29, 2013
39,398
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Montreal
If at mid- season the team is still in Playoffs contention, I really want them to give it all to make them.

If they are like a .500 team or below, let's go down to bottom five team of the league, then.

NHL .500 or true .500? The last thing I want is an 82 point team trying to improve to a wildcard position (read 8th) they likely won't have much control over given the spot will be contested by the Met. Once things settle in we probably have to beat Buffalo to advance to the post season. That really doesn't seem realistic today.
 

Beige Van

Registered User
Oct 4, 2009
2,265
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Canada
I think the team blew it's wad in the first 20 games or so. Playing balls out like they did exacts a toll. It's no coincidence that the team looks exhausted not even a third of the way through the season. I expect they will finish out a shade before .500. I predicted ~80 points and 12-13th in the east before the season started, and I'm sticking with that outcome.
 
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OldCraig71

Registered User
Feb 2, 2009
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I predicted 65 points but that was before we knew that Tatar would become reborn in Montreal or that Max Domi would be a ppg player here. Lots of things can still happen in this season but our D is doing it’s best to push this team to the bottom of the standings.
 

Fish on The Sand

Untouchable
Feb 28, 2002
60,233
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I predicted 65 points but that was before we knew that Tatar would become reborn in Montreal or that Max Domi would be a ppg player here. Lots of things can still happen in this season but our D is doing it’s best to push this team to the bottom of the standings.
Our defense was always going to bite us and Domi/Tatar weren't going to keep up a ppg pace. The regression was coming and it was obvious. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether our goaltending will keep piling up these overtime points and keep us out of the bottom 5.
 

OldCraig71

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Feb 2, 2009
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No one cares
Our defense was always going to bite us and Domi/Tatar weren't going to keep up a ppg pace. The regression was coming and it was obvious. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether our goaltending will keep piling up these overtime points and keep us out of the bottom 5.
It will be tough for any goalie to make up for a D like ours. I just want to see us play an entertaining style and stay close in games with the end result being a high draft pick(s)
 

Tyson

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Mar 1, 2007
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While I always enjoy watching a competitive Habs team I think it is obvious that while this team has made strides this year, they are simply not talented enough and another top 5 pick would be huge
 
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BaseballCoach

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Dec 15, 2006
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Never read anybody say trade Petry because Juulsen is ready to be a no. 3.

The idea behind trading Petry is that our defence is so bad were not going to comtend in the next 3-5 years so might as well get young assets who wont be over their prime by the tome were ready to contend.

I understand your reasoning but in today's NHL, a competent GM can improve a team from middle of the pack to contender in way less than 3-5 years.

I'm not saying this one idea would work for the Habs right now, so please don't go off ridiculing the idea of using cap space, but for example, a young 90-93 point team that signs Erik Karlsson as UFA because they have tons of cap space could see a jump to contender status from just that one move.

Between Cap Space, trades, European UFAs, free post-college guys, drafting, development and more in terms of tools available to all GMs, no one should ever give up for 3-5 years in advance. If you don't think the GM is smart enough to build a team properly and needs Jack Hughes to fall into his lap to have a prayer, then call for the GM's replacement instead.
 

1909

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Jul 6, 2016
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The thing you don't understand, is that even when we win, we know that we are not good enough, but we can't express our opinion, because the T word is prohibited. We need to act like cheerleaders.

No of course... But there is at least fifty shades of gray. Not just black and white. Shit happens over a 82 games calendar.
 

BaseballCoach

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Dec 15, 2006
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No of course... But there is at least fifty shades of gray. Not just black and white. **** happens over a 82 games calendar.

The thing you don't understand, is that even when we win, we know that we are not good enough, but we can't express our opinion, because the T word is prohibited. We need to act like cheerleaders.

Thanks for your perspective, but that's not really true. Most of us agree we are not good enough right now. Where we differ is what to do about it.

If a YOUNG team is at the 90+ point level and no longer bottom two or three, the chances of improvement seem better by building directly than by tearing down. We already have three young players who were either 3rd overall picks or received in exchange for one. so the "get young talent" box is already checked. Plus we have two elite guys in their early thirties. Then add a 30 goal scorer and three 20 goal scorers, maybe four. And a good second defenceman. Then realize that Kotkaniemi is likely to improve quite a lot, and that we have the equivalent of three first round picks knocking at the doorand turning pro next year.

So while we are not good enough on defence and possibly need another scorer if Suzuki does not pan out, there are many ways we can improve the roster without sending away the assets I listed above (unless for a need such as a first-pairing LD). One of those ways is that unlike many contending teams, we have loads of cap space to either entice some UFAs or improve the roster by relieving someone else's cap headache, like we did getting Armia and Suzuki.

Tanks? No thanks.
 

26Mats

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Jun 23, 2018
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I understand your reasoning but in today's NHL, a competent GM can improve a team from middle of the pack to contender in way less than 3-5 years.

I'm not saying this one idea would work for the Habs right now, so please don't go off ridiculing the idea of using cap space, but for example, a young 90-93 point team that signs Erik Karlsson as UFA because they have tons of cap space could see a jump to contender status from just that one move.

Between Cap Space, trades, European UFAs, free post-college guys, drafting, development and more in terms of tools available to all GMs, no one should ever give up for 3-5 years in advance. If you don't think the GM is smart enough to build a team properly and needs Jack Hughes to fall into his lap to have a prayer, then call for the GM's replacement instead.

I try to never ridicule posts that bring up ideas that may be unpopular or unorthodox...

Most teams that win a cup have a had a Jack Hughes fall into their lap after many years of sucking (Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, etc...) The exceptions are Detroit (used to have an edge on European scouting (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, etc..) but no longer do), and Boston (solid drafting helped, but no way in hell they win a cup without putting up big money for Chara (7.5 million out of a 39 million cap). If we get a chance to get a Chara level player today for 15-17 million a year AAV we better jump on it...

I think the way to do it without tanking is get lottery level talent when it rarely becomes available on the cheap (Skinner and Radulov) but we let both those ships sail. Plus adding other talent like Duclair and Perron for free gives you the asset stock pile from which to trade for that no. 4 LD.
 

BaseballCoach

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Dec 15, 2006
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I try to never ridicule posts that bring up ideas that may be unpopular or unorthodox...

Most teams that win a cup have a had a Jack Hughes fall into their lap after many years of sucking (Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, etc...) The exceptions are Detroit (used to have an edge on European scouting (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, etc..) but no longer do), and Boston (solid drafting helped, but no way in hell they win a cup without putting up big money for Chara (7.5 million out of a 39 million cap). If we get a chance to get a Chara level player today for 15-17 million a year AAV we better jump on it...

I think the way to do it without tanking is get lottery level talent when it rarely becomes available on the cheap (Skinner and Radulov) but we let both those ships sail. Plus adding other talent like Duclair and Perron for free gives you the asset stock pile from which to trade for that no. 4 LD.

Not professional GM makes a plan that REQUIRES him to get a generational talent in order to win a Cup, especially when there is no way to guarantee control of that variable.

Professional GMs plan to build a promising team, then a solid team, then a contender, then hopefully they luck out with a Championship.

The Habs have possibly five elite talents, plus a 30 goal scorer and a solid 2D. Then add 3-4 20 goal scorers, 3 strong prospects turning pro next year and LOADS of cap space. A smart GM has much to work with.

And just so you know I'm paying attention, Ovechkin is a fudge as a tank success. It doesn't count after 12 years of not even getting to a Cup final to credit the 2004 draft for the Cup win. If 2004 was the catalyst, where were the Caps in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? Something else was clearly the trigger.
 

26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
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Not professional GM makes a plan that REQUIRES him to get a generational talent in order to win a Cup, especially when there is no way to guarantee control of that variable.

Professional GMs plan to build a promising team, then a solid team, then a contender, then hopefully they luck out with a Championship.

The Habs have possibly five elite talents, plus a 30 goal scorer and a solid 2D. Then add 3-4 20 goal scorers, 3 strong prospects turning pro next year and LOADS of cap space. A smart GM has much to work with.

And just so you know I'm paying attention, Ovechkin is a fudge as a tank success. It doesn't count after 12 years of not even getting to a Cup final to credit the 2004 draft for the Cup win. If 2004 was the catalyst, where were the Caps in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? Something else was clearly the trigger.

Do the caps win the cup without Ovechkin and Backstrom?

By the way, I was presenting the position for trading Petry, not waying we should do it...
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Not professional GM makes a plan that REQUIRES him to get a generational talent in order to win a Cup, especially when there is no way to guarantee control of that variable.

Professional GMs plan to build a promising team, then a solid team, then a contender, then hopefully they luck out with a Championship.
Maybe that's why so many of them fail.

The Habs have possibly five elite talents, plus a 30 goal scorer and a solid 2D. Then add 3-4 20 goal scorers, 3 strong prospects turning pro next year and LOADS of cap space. A smart GM has much to work with.
:biglaugh: Old friend, that has got to be the funniest thing you've ever said.
Habs barely have 1 elite player.
And just so you know I'm paying attention, Ovechkin is a fudge as a tank success. It doesn't count after 12 years of not even getting to a Cup final to credit the 2004 draft for the Cup win. If 2004 was the catalyst, where were the Caps in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? Something else was clearly the trigger.
That's got to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever read. You are better than this.
For the millionth time, nobody said that tanking guaratees cup success with a very subjective and random period.
What tanking does is give you high end talent, period. And yes, if you tank enough you are guaranteed to get high end talent. What you do around that is an entire different matter.
Of course, when you live in a world where pink unicorns fly and we have 5 elite players, then you wouldn't believe we need to get an Ovechkin. But when you decide to join us back down to Planet Earth, where the Habs are mediocre at best, you'll quickly realize this team is desperate for an Ovechkin high end type of talent and absolutely 200% need one.
 

BaseballCoach

Registered User
Dec 15, 2006
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:biglaugh: Old friend, that has got to be the funniest thing you've ever said.
Habs barely have 1 elite player.

That's got to be the dumbest reasoning I've ever read. You are better than this.
For the millionth time, nobody said that tanking guaratees cup success with a very subjective and random period.
What tanking does is give you high end talent, period. And yes, if you tank enough you are guaranteed to get high end talent. What you do around that is an entire different matter.
Of course, when you live in a world where pink unicorns fly and we have 5 elite players, then you wouldn't believe we need to get an Ovechkin. But when you decide to join us back down to Planet Earth, where the Habs are mediocre at best, you'll quickly realize this team is desperate for an Ovechkin high end type of talent and absolutely 200% need one.

Laugh at other people if you want while #ECWHSWI claims that I am taking shots at people in the past week when I have not.

It's easy to ridicule each other since we are all fans of a team that has not won a Cup or been to a final since 1993. We can all, each and every one of us, claim that the other guy's approach does not work, since all approaches have been tried in the past 25 years.

We drafted 3rd twice and 9th once in the past 7 drafts. We've traded assets for former first rounders a few times too, getting extra young assets in effect - talking about Danault, Armia, Suzuki. We managed to land one good player as a 27 year old UFA (Petry)

After all that, you judge that we have barely 1 elite player to show for that suckiness.

What I have been saying is that while it is nice to have Alex Ovechkin fall in your lap, even that good fortune does not guarantee that your team won't fail to reach the final in 12 straight years.

The first great equalizer in all of this GM playing is the salary cap. The more talent you assemble, the more it costs, and everyone is subject to a 100% rigid cap. The other wild card is the lottery draft system. The more good moves you make, the harder it is to get a fortuitous draft result.

It is misleading for any of us to assume that one approach always works and that all the professional GM has to do is follow that one prescription and hope no one else does.

Look at what the salary Cap does to teams. From 2006 to 2017, Chicago won three Cups with Toews and Kane, and Pittsburgh three Cups plus a SCF with Crosby and Malkin, while the Caps won no Cups and had no SCF appearances with Ovechkin and Backstrom and the Habs got no Cups and no SCFs with Price and Subban.

Chicago has increasingly sucked since their last Cup win while Kane was 26, yet Washington managed to win with Ovechkin at 32 after 12 years of futility.

Saying, with perfect hindsight, that the Caps win should be chalked up to being bad in 2001-2004 ignores everything that happened since and which has been literally a constellation of millions of decision-combinations on the part of all GMs interacting.

Had a better Habs GM been able to get the team to a final and possibly win it since 2012, while Backstrom pulled a Radulov for example and left Washington for the KHL at some point, would that suddenly mean that whatever strategy the Habs used to get elite Subban at 45th in the draft should be emulated by all?

The salary Cap and the Draft lottery system affects everything. Chicago had to shed good players one after another to comply with the cap. Meanwhile the Caps with Ovechkin and Backstrom also being expensive and also being late 20s and even older, suddenly put together a string of moves that worked.

For another example, people say that it was a mistake to let Radulov go because he is a top talent, just below elite. But had we kept him, we surely would not have finished at the bottom and got Kotkaniemi. And we would have less cap space.

Every decision is a trade-off and no matter what move you make, the salary cap and the draft lottery system apply a countervailing pressure, which while real is also unpredictable in degree. Those pressures destroy some teams while others are barely affected at particular points in time.

The ONLY way to win a Cup is to make many and important good moves - there is no one magic bullet.

It's a sad reality when your GM is just not very sharp and lacks vision. Even if some moves work out, there is always the understandable fear that he will blow it somewhere and somehow else.

And yet we are all fans of teams in a league of soon to be 32 teams, where the chances of your team getting to a Cup final are very, very low.

Let's not take shots at each other, let's not oversell any one particular approach and appreciate that it takes a combination of smarts and luck to achieve success. Let's enjoy the ride and the debates with a bit more humility than most of us, including me, have displayed over the years.
 
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beowulf

Not a nice guy.
Jan 29, 2005
59,405
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Ottawa
Not where they are that's for sure. Not a middle of the pack team that might barely make the playoffs or could just as easily end up on the outside looking in. All this does is give the team another middle of the 1st round pick. At this point it does not look like the pieces are there to be even an outside contender so as much as I hate to say it, probably in the lower part of the standings for a better pick next summer.
 

Hfbsux

Registered User
Dec 22, 2012
2,603
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Personnally I'd rather have another top pick but wouldn't mind if the team keeps it up and make the playoffs. It is a young team and those players could gain some experience.
 
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