Where will Mo go?

[Gniwder]

That isn't how this works and it never will so to put it that way is absurd every time posters do it.

The DeVos family owns the team and while they have a very good working relationship with the Ilitch family even allowing Ryan Martin GM control they don't operate the team as an anything the Wings say goes operation. I really don't understand why people struggle with this the Griffins are not a Red Wings play thing. They are a professional sports organization with a very close working relationship but wins and proper team construct is going to take precedence over how a lot of posters like to put things.

McIlrath is important at that level because of the physicality. I think somebody else on the right will have to give, though honestly this is a huge reason I didn't want Hicketts in terms of Lashoff and McIlrath being your AHL types was fine, didn't need a third AHL guy in that picture. Oh well Simon will have to juggle if he gets Mo, but they aren't going to juice his ice time or do something just because that still isn't how it works at all. Seider will get to play because he is good enough to, but he will have to earn his ice time that is what professional hockey is about everywhere.

It's actually you who doesn't understand the AHL. From the league website:
"The AHL serves as the top development league for the National Hockey League"
"In the AHL, player development is a top priority. "
FAQ | TheAHL.com | The American Hockey League

You might want to read the whole thing. There's a reason for the veteran limit.

 

[Bondurant]

Seider knows it's best to stay in AHL/NHL to develop. Kid gets it. Future is bright.

Already covered in where will mo go thread.

Where will Mo go?

Is that a Sabaton avatar?

 

[raymond23]

After my viewings of Seider I just don’t see the CHL as the proper place for his development. He is too talented and physically gifted for that league. I understand the idea of giving him huge ice time and a ton of touches to develop his offensive game but I think the cons outweigh the pros in that scenario. He’s just too talented imo. I’m trying to not get overhyped but I’m beginning to think we have something special on our hands...

 

[Henkka]

I understand the idea of giving him huge ice time and a ton of touches to develop his offensive game but I think the cons outweigh the pros in that scenario. He’s just too talented imo. I’m trying to not get overhyped but I’m beginning to think we have something special on our hands...

Less ice-time and more off-ice training is also one good way to go. He has to bulk up. If you play too much, there's no energy for training during the season.

That's why 3rd pair role works well with young players. Small ice-time didn't kill his development at German league.

- Energy for training
- Adjust in the big league, with easier compeition
- Learn from men

 

[Mlotek]

Is that a Sabaton avatar?

Yes, been a fan for years before finally got to see them live opening for Accept.

 

[MBH]

I don't really care where he plays.
But I do like him in North America.
CHL - If Seider has the offensive ability and PP ability some say, maybe the CHL is the place where he can really develop that.
AHL - Big enough and fast enough to play against men. Wings could control his usage a little, making sure he gets PP time or PK time if that's what they deem necessary.
NHL - If Seider blows everyone away in camp, maybe he makes the NHL team and replaces Bowey. Not sure it's best for him. But maybe it wouldn't hurt.
---
The only upside to Germany I see is this. If we don't see Seider as an NHLer this year, and if Lindstrom, Kaski, McIlrath and Saarijarvi are also in the AHL - well, maybe see send Seider back to Germany. Sort out our RD situation this year, and then bring Seider over next year.

 

[TheMule93]

Honestly he does seem good enough to make the team, but this will largely be determined in preseason. There is also, of course, the sad truth that there are 0 roster spots on our team available.

 

[Konnan511]

It's actually you who doesn't understand the AHL. From the league website:
"The AHL serves as the top development league for the National Hockey League"
"In the AHL, player development is a top priority. "
FAQ | TheAHL.com | The American Hockey League

You might want to read the whole thing. There's a reason for the veteran limit.

And Human Resources is there for the employees. Just because you say one thing, it doesn't mean it's actually true. The owners of the Griffins make a hell of a lot more money if they make the playoffs than if they don't. Sure, they want to get the Wing's kids some playing time to keep the affiliation going and getting some of that sweet sweet Red Wing money, but their main priority is to win games. You play to the game.

 

[deca guard]

hes going places

 

[Gniwder]

And Human Resources is there for the employees. Just because you say one thing, it doesn't mean it's actually true. The owners of the Griffins make a hell of a lot more money if they make the playoffs than if they don't. Sure, they want to get the Wing's kids some playing time to keep the affiliation going and getting some of that sweet sweet Red Wing money, but their main priority is to win games. You play to the game.

One does not exclude the other. If you're playing to win, chances are pretty good that the team is developing players along the way and playing the best prospects. It's not good for a player's development to put a player in above their head either. I don't expect Seider to get massive ice time fi he can't handle it.

The Griffins won't make any money if the Wings management isn't happy with the relationship. Keep in mind that 2/3 of their roster is loaned from the Wings, and affiliations do change when relationships don't work out. I'm old enough to remember the Andirondack Red Wings.

Whatever spin you want to put on it, the AHL is designed to be a farm league. 13 players have to be developmental players for each game. It's not designed to be a B level professional league. That's why players head to Europe or Russia when they can't cut it in the NHL.

 

[MBH]

So all entry's are two-way deals right?
What does he make in GR vs Germany?

 

[Gniwder]

So all entry's are two-way deals right?
What does he make in GR vs Germany?

Yes.

$70k in GR with $92.5k signing bonus each year. Looks like he's got additional bonuses if he plays in the NHL on top of $925 salary.

Have no idea what he makes if he goes to Germany.

 

[newfy]

And Human Resources is there for the employees. Just because you say one thing, it doesn't mean it's actually true. The owners of the Griffins make a hell of a lot more money if they make the playoffs than if they don't. Sure, they want to get the Wing's kids some playing time to keep the affiliation going and getting some of that sweet sweet Red Wing money, but their main priority is to win games. You play to the game.

I think its a little bit of both. I'm sure if high end NHL prospects are playing but the team is a little worse overall that the attendance and jersey sales are going to be better.Who sells more jerseys, a TJ Brennan caliber AHL player or a Moritz Seider? Or a guy like Zadina vs someone like Chris Terry?

 

[Hammettf2b]

for those of you who have a subscription

Early impressions of Moritz Seider: 'Jeez, he's looked...

 

[Laser Rayzor]

Yes, been a fan for years before finally got to see them live opening for Accept.

I saw Sabaton opening for Amon Amarth, they put on a great show.

 

[Mlotek]

I saw Sabaton opening for Amon Amarth, they put on a great show.

Nice, saw them at Royal Oak during that tour. Was around halloween if I recall correctly.

 

[Gniwder]

I think its a little bit of both. I'm sure if high end NHL prospects are playing but the team is a little worse overall that the attendance and jersey sales are going to be better.Who sells more jerseys, a TJ Brennan caliber AHL player or a Moritz Seider? Or a guy like Zadina vs someone like Chris Terry?

Are AHL player jerseys that popular? AHL players usually don't last that long with their club. Look at the current roster, only Colin Campbell and Lashoff have more than 5 years with the Griffs.

Imagine buying a Lashoff jersey just because he's been with the team for a decade, lol.

That being said, if I had to buy a Griffins jersey this season, it'd be Veleno.

 

[waltdetroit]

Are AHL player jerseys that popular? AHL players usually don't last that long with their club. Look at the current roster, only Colin Campbell and Lashoff have more than 5 years with the Griffs.

Imagine buying a Lashoff jersey just because he's been with the team for a decade, lol.

That being said, if I had to buy a Griffins jersey this season, it'd be Veleno.

I see your point but Campbell wasn't signed to GRG this year as yet

 

[Gniwder]

And Human Resources is there for the employees. Just because you say one thing, it doesn't mean it's actually true. The owners of the Griffins make a hell of a lot more money if they make the playoffs than if they don't. Sure, they want to get the Wing's kids some playing time to keep the affiliation going and getting some of that sweet sweet Red Wing money, but their main priority is to win games. You play to the game.

Just want to add that the Griffins would be defunct like the rest of the IHL had it not been for Mike Ilitch and Ken Holland, so the DeVos family should be eternally grateful to be a part of the Red Wings system.

You guys need to study your AHL history... I'm by no means an expert, just old enough to remember the switch in affiliation. Also old enough to have watched a Vipers game at the Palace.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Just want to add that the Griffins would be defunct like the rest of the IHL had it not been for Mike Ilitch and Ken Holland, so the DeVos family should be eternally grateful to be a part of the Red Wings system.

You guys need to study your AHL history... I'm by no means an expert, just old enough to remember the switch in affiliation. Also old enough to have watched a Vipers game at the Palace.

Grand Rapids, Chicago, Houston and Milwaukee were gem franchises in nice buildings. Manitoba had danced between both leagues and Utah were a little less attractive but the point is they were not in danger of being left behind. They were assets the AHL wanted when absorbing the league. The DeVos family also owned the teams in Kansas City and Orlando right before the merger. He was really the most powerful owner in the IHL, they don't absorb the league without taking his hometown franchise, which was his selection because of the rule of one team ownership in the AHL.

Gary Bettman and the NHL league office was the driving force behind actually merging the minors. Devos bought in to that vision, he wasn't saved by the Ilitch family, they massively upgraded their situation and snagged the Griffins who left the Ottawa Senators in 2002 and provided a much closer distance for the Wings than Adirondack.

 

[Gniwder]

Grand Rapids, Chicago, Houston and Milwaukee were gem franchises in nice buildings. Manitoba had danced between both leagues and Utah were a little less attractive but the point is they were not in danger of being left behind. They were assets the AHL wanted when absorbing the league. The DeVos family also owned the teams in Kansas City and Orlando right before the merger. He was really the most powerful owner in the IHL, they don't absorb the league without taking his hometown franchise, which was his selection because of the rule of one team ownership in the AHL.

Gary Bettman and the NHL league office was the driving force behind actually merging the minors. Devos bought in to that vision, he wasn't saved by the Ilitch family, they massively upgraded their situation and snagged the Griffins who left the Ottawa Senators in 2002 and provided a much closer distance for the Wings than Adirondack.

It wasn't a merger, IHL went bankrupt (thanks in part to Bettman) and they actually had to pay $2.5M per team to join the AHL. Bettman's goal was to have one AHL team per NHL franchise, he didn't care how, though making IHL teams pay to join the league is obviously cost beneficial and easier than expansion.

So having lost 2 out of 3 teams, don't you think the DeVos values the benefits of being affiliated to an NHL team? Certainly winning an IHL championship didn't do much for his Orlando team. (Don't start with the AHL one team ownership rule, if there was value in the franchise, they could have sold it to someone.) Also, being the most powerful owner of a bankrupt league just means you lost the most money, lol.

One of the biggest reason why the IHL collapsed was because of the lack of NHL affiliation, and competition from the NHL. The IHL was intended to be a B-league with career minor leaguers and it simply didn't work. There really hasn't been any successful professional B leagues in any professional sport.
​

True that it was the Sens that saved the Griffins and not the Wings (I forgot that detail), but the proximity in location is beneficial to both teams.

But, the point still stands that the AHL is a farm system, meant for player development. Sure they want to win games, but you don't see them hoarding top end minor league talent to win championships.

It's actually ironic that we're talking about the owner of the last IHL champion....

 

[GrGriffins]

One of the biggest reason why the IHL collapsed was because of the lack of NHL affiliation, and competition from the NHL. The IHL was intended to be a B-league with career minor leaguers and it simply didn't work. There really hasn't been any successful professional B leagues in any professional sport.

The main reason the IHL went belly up is because they thought they could give the NHL a run for their money by going head to head (just like the WHA tried in the 70's) against them. The IHL made their money in the 90's by getting all these expansion teams from all over the US and into Canada. The IHL owners were living off the expansion money they made, but when teams left and no more new teams coming in, the expansion money dried up and a failed deal with getting teams established in Europe (which never materialized) was the IHL demize and thus closed up shop. DeVos had own 3 IHL teams (KC, Orlando, & GR). In the merger, DeVos had to give up 2 teams. KC he gave up as the Sharks already had Worcester as their AHL farm team and those players in KC just transferred to Worcester. Orlando was not geographically sound for the AHL, so that was a no brainer. And GR is because Amway's headquarters is in Ada, MI (about 15 miles from downtown GR). Plus the AHL wanted a Midwestern presence and with Grand Rapids, Chicago, Milwaukee, Houston, Manitoba, & Utah coming in, made a perfect fit for the AHL.

Griffins are owned by DeVos and VanAndel. DeVos has his marketing firm running the team. The Red Wings when they sold the Adirondack Red Wings, they did not want to own their farm team (AHL or IHL). They ended up sharing an AHL affiliate with the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim in Cincinnati for several seasons. The Griffins were an independent IHL team as they first started. Then the Ottawa Senators came in (Senators never saved us at all) and they became our first NHL affiliate the last 2 seasons in the IHL and our first season in the AHL. When our agreement with the Senators were up, we had a great relationship with them, but the Red Wings then decided to come to us and wanted us (we wanted them as well) to be their AHL top farm team. The Senators had an inactive AHL team that they owned, but they wanted to enter the IHL to see where that league would go. Once the Red Wings moved into GR, Ottawa then decided to activate their AHL team in Binghanton, NY. The Red Wings stated that they have no intentions of owning the Griffins and it has been a wonderful relationship between the 2 organizations since.

 

[Perfect Human]

After watching him in the prospects tournament I think he will go to the AHL. His style does translate well to the smaller ice, he just needs to work in timing a bit more. If he spends a full season on NA I think he will be ready for a top 4 role next year. Granted, he was playing against children and not men, but the way he plays is really nice.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The main reason the IHL went belly up is because they thought they could give the NHL a run for their money by going head to head (just like the WHA tried in the 70's) against them. The IHL made their money in the 90's by getting all these expansion teams from all over the US and into Canada. The IHL owners were living off the expansion money they made, but when teams left and no more new teams coming in, the expansion money dried up and a failed deal with getting teams established in Europe (which never materialized) was the IHL demize and thus closed up shop. DeVos had own 3 IHL teams (KC, Orlando, & GR). In the merger, DeVos had to give up 2 teams. KC he gave up as the Sharks already had Worcester as their AHL farm team and those players in KC just transferred to Worcester. Orlando was not geographically sound for the AHL, so that was a no brainer. And GR is because Amway's headquarters is in Ada, MI (about 15 miles from downtown GR). Plus the AHL wanted a Midwestern presence and with Grand Rapids, Chicago, Milwaukee, Houston, Manitoba, & Utah coming in, made a perfect fit for the AHL.

Griffins are owned by DeVos and VanAndel. DeVos has his marketing firm running the team. The Red Wings when they sold the Adirondack Red Wings, they did not want to own their farm team (AHL or IHL). They ended up sharing an AHL affiliate with the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim in Cincinnati for several seasons. The Griffins were an independent IHL team as they first started. Then the Ottawa Senators came in (Senators never saved us at all) and they became our first NHL affiliate the last 2 seasons in the IHL and our first season in the AHL. When our agreement with the Senators were up, we had a great relationship with them, but the Red Wings then decided to come to us and wanted us (we wanted them as well) to be their AHL top farm team. The Senators had an inactive AHL team that they owned, but they wanted to enter the IHL to see where that league would go. Once the Red Wings moved into GR, Ottawa then decided to activate their AHL team in Binghanton, NY. The Red Wings stated that they have no intentions of owning the Griffins and it has been a wonderful relationship between the 2 organizations since.

Thank you that was much more detailed. But this is a more accurate assessment than what is being presented. The Griffins are not a Red Wings play thing. I know you know that and I don't understand how anybody that has watched the AHL level can actually think that is the case. Even the teams that own their AHL operations do not deal in the way that is being suggested by several posters. The AHL is the third best league in the world and frankly it is closer to the second the KHL than the KHL is to the NHL in my opinion.

They are a real business with real objectives. It is important that they have a good relationship with their affiliated NHL team, but ultimately they work within their own construct and operate like most pro leagues. Same reason we cannot rely on Mannheim to just play him stupid minutes. The only leagues where you can more or less assert major control is in the CHL and USHL/NCAA as we have seen that lots over the years, either through trade requests or in the case of the NCAA removing a kid from the team by turning him pro or hand picking a CHL team. But it seems most hate the CHL option so make due with the fact he won't get astronomical ice time if that is the choice. The AHL is a very competitive league and while I think Seider can make a big impact he is going to have to earn his opportunities from Simon, they won't be gifted from on high, that isn't how that league works.

 

[GrGriffins]

I know a lot of posters do not think much of Simon as a head coach here in GR. He is pretty fair and he will let you know where you stand, where you need to be, and what is expected from each of his players. I like him as he is easy to talk to and knowing him for several seasons now, he tells it like it is. He hides from no one. Working for the Griffins through our booster club does have its advantages.

If Seider does not make the Red Wings lineup, he will end up in GR for sure. Yzerman did not select him 6th overall in the draft for nothing. The Wings have a lot invested in him and both the Wings and Seider goal is for him to make it to Detroit. He has nothing to prove in Mannheim and it would be a set back for his progress as a pro player. He has to prove to Simon that he wants to ice time and he was to work for it, just like G Smith, Zadina, and others. Be interesting to see how training camp goes (who makes it or not, who can stay healthy or not, etc). I have a feeling that changes will be made before the start of the regular season both in Detroit and in GR. I just hope that GR can get out of the gate at the start of the season instead of starting slow and then have to play catch up like the last couple of seasons.