Where does Selänne rank on the all-time players list?

Nick Hansen

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A list is going to be heavily dominated by Canadians. So once you've got those out of the way (players that were superior to Selanne, that is), you start with the Europeans and Americans. I don't know. 77th maybe?
 

quoipourquoi

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A list is going to be heavily dominated by Canadians. So once you've got those out of the way (players that were superior to Selanne, that is), you start with the Europeans and Americans. I don't know. 77th maybe?

Come on. The best American player (Chelios or Brimsek) and the best Finnish player (Selanne) are obviously going to be behind some Canadian players. It’s not a slight against them.

Selanne has a 5-year gap in the middle of his resume because of wear-and-tear, otherwise he’d place higher than he will, but we can’t ignore that he was treated incredibly fairly in the Wingers project. If HOH goes back to asking if he was as good as Johnny Bucyk, I’d get where you’re coming from, but it hasn’t been like that for years.
 

Bustedprospect

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If we are talking All-time career and not just NHL it's pretty high. All-time Olympic scoring and great performance on the international scene as well as a great NHL-career.

A great and long prime that lasted into his twilight years due to love for the game and great conditioning.

The rookie record that people are going to remember, even though shared he got two goal-scoring titles and was generally seen as one of the top players in the league for a while. What hurts Selanne is that he was not quite "the best" player, playoffs and that he went absent for a while.

Sits at 9th all time adjusted in points and 4th in goals. No case whatsoever for under 100 and i think around 50-60 is reasonable for Selanne depending how his overall case is weighted.
 
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Nick Hansen

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Come on. The best American player (Chelios or Brimsek) and the best Finnish player (Selanne) are obviously going to be behind some Canadian players. It’s not a slight against them.

Selanne has a 5-year gap in the middle of his resume because of wear-and-tear, otherwise he’d place higher than he will, but we can’t ignore that he was treated incredibly fairly in the Wingers project. If HOH goes back to asking if he was as good as Johnny Bucyk, I’d get where you’re coming from, but it hasn’t been like that for years.

What do you mean "come on"?

Any way, looked at the lists on here. Didn't appear on the top 100 players of all time but that one was made in 2008 so not sure if that does justice to Selanne. He was 15th on the wingers list made in 2014-2015 though. Treated incredibly fair as you say, as he was placed above Brett Hull and Jari Kurri for instance.

With all that said. Somewhere between 65 and 75 seems like a good guess.
 
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bobholly39

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Id guess at 50-75ish. Hard to pinpoint exactly without doing a full list and taking into account everyone else
 

quoipourquoi

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What do you mean "come on"?

Any way, looked at the lists on here. Didn't appear on the top 100 players of all time but that one was made in 2008 so not sure if that does justice to Selanne. He was 15th on the wingers list made in 2014-2015 though. Treated incredibly fair as you say, as he was placed above Brett Hull and Jari Kurri for instance.

With all that said. Somewhere between 65 and 75 seems like a good guess.

Oh, in 2008 and 2009? No, Selanne was not properly received on HOH. Not at all. No, no, no, no, hell no, no. And if that was what you were going off of to gauge the current temperature on his ranking, then the above comment is pretty justifiable.

I just want to be clear - HOH isn’t like that anymore. It’s not just that new people have come in - those who were around back then are better informed now than they were. The difference in research and the increased quality in discussion just from 2008 to 2012 was night-and-day.
 

Canadiens1958

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Oh, in 2008 and 2009? No, Selanne was not properly received on HOH. Not at all. No, no, no, no, hell no, no. And if that was what you were going off of to gauge the current temperature on his ranking, then the above comment is pretty justifiable.

I just want to be clear - HOH isn’t like that anymore. It’s not just that new people have come in - those who were around back then are better informed now than they were. The difference in research and the increased quality in discussion just from 2008 to 2012 was night-and-day.

Plus the availability of historic and archival data online is exponential. Libraries,governamental and academic data banks thru the NHL partial cache of archival game data have improved the debate.
 
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quoipourquoi

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Here’s a 51-68 ballpark:


Better Goaltenders (9-13ish)

Brimsek, Brodeur, Dryden, Hall, Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Tretiak... Benedict? Broda? Durnan? Vezina?

Better Defensemen (12-16ish)
Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Fetisov, Harvey, Kelly, Lidstrom, Orr, Potvin, Pronger, Robinson, Shore... Clancy? Cleghorn? Park? Pilote?

Better Centers (19-23ish)
Apps, Beliveau, Clarke, Crosby, Esposito, Forsberg, Gretzky, Lalonde, Lemieux, Malkin, Messier, Mikita, Morenz, Nighbor, Richard, Sakic, Taylor, Trottier, Yzerman... Boucher? Dionne? Kennedy? Schmidt?

Better Wingers (10-15ish)
Bossy, Cook, Howe, Hull, Jagr, Lafleur, Lindsay, Makarov, Ovechkin, Richard... Bathgate? Conacher? Geoffrion? Kharlamov? Mahovlich?
 

quoipourquoi

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it’s still hard for me to accept selanne > kurri, though my sense is that’s orthodoxy by now.

I think any time there is a head-to-head comparison of two players and one is defensively strong and the other defensively ambivalent, it’s hard to not have a “but” argument in the former’s favor. (Did anyone see the lopsided Datsyuk vs. St. Louis poll? Yikes.)

That they are both from Finland is the only reason I feel the comparison still comes up, because Selanne was matching Kurri’s raw numbers in a lower scoring environment and with Paul Kariya instead of Wayne Gretzky. A top-10 scorer at 40 and an Olympic MVP at 43, while Kurri was a double-digit minus player in 5 of 7 seasons in his 30s. Two-consecutive Pearson nominations and three-consecutive top-5 Hart placements against the infamous single career Hart ballot.
 
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The Panther

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...Selanne was matching Kurri’s raw numbers in a lower scoring environment and with Paul Kariya instead of Wayne Gretzky.
Except in the playoffs, where Kurri completely destroys Selanne. And Kurri increased his scoring totals immediately after Gretzky was traded.

Having said that, if I have to take one or the other, I might take Selanne... but it's not one-sided, like you're implying.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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I think any time there is a head-to-head comparison of two players and one is defensively strong and the other defensively ambivalent, it’s hard to not have a “but” argument in the former’s favor. (Did anyone see the lopsided Datsyuk vs. St. Louis poll? Yikes.)

That they are both from Finland is the only reason I feel the comparison still comes up, because Selanne was matching Kurri’s raw numbers in a lower scoring environment and with Paul Kariya instead of Wayne Gretzky. A top-10 scorer at 40 and an Olympic MVP at 43, while Kurri was a double-digit minus player in 5 of 7 seasons in his 30s. Two-consecutive Pearson nominations and three-consecutive top-5 Hart placements against the infamous single career Hart ballot.

i only mention kurri because upthread you completely matter-of-factly called selanne the best finnish player of all time. otherwise, yes i don't know that comparing him to kurri helps us too much here because they were in such different situations and, as you say, one guy's case is all offense while the other finished 2, 3, 4, and 5 in selke voting in consecutive seasons.

i'm not going rehearse the kurri/selanne argument, other than to say that hart voting wasn't especially kind to kurri. obviously kurri was in gretzky's shadow the entire time gretzky was there (and he wasn't alone; coffey and fuhr each had one season of serious hart consideration while gretzky was still an oiler, but messier only received three votes total in nine seasons as gretzky's teammate). but more unfortunate for kurri was that his best post-gretzky season was 1989, when the hart was almost literally a three-horse race and also back when it was also a three-man ballot. compare that to messier, who had his career year in 1990, which was pre-suter gretzky's most mortal season.

selanne still would have the much better hart record, against much lighter competition, but if they had used the five-man ballot, it wouldn't be as enormous as three good years of placements vs. practically nothing.

kurri was 69 on the last top players list. makarov was 61. assuming those two players stay close to where they are, i think the high end of almost everyone who's posted's range (~50) seems way too high. even without directly comparing kurri and selanne, i can't see less than ten guys separating makarov and selanne.
 

sr edler

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Olympic MVP at 43

I still don’t get how he got this one. His team got bounced in the semi-finals and he didn’t score a point past the quarter-finals, plus he was outscored by his own linemate (Granlund). Karlsson would obviously have been a better choice, and I say that as someone who likes Selänne more than Karlsson. Demitra in 2010 probably would have been a less dubious choice too. I don’t like the "lifetime achievement award" narrative, and it’s the same reason Ovi’s Smythe left a sour taste in my mouth, because some people in the media actually uttered those words.
 

VMBM

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kurri was 69 on the last top players list. makarov was 61. assuming those two players stay close to where they are, i think the high end of almost everyone who's posted's range (~50) seems way too high. even without directly comparing kurri and selanne, i can't see less than ten guys separating makarov and selanne.

Makarov's stock has risen considerably since 2009, due to available YouTube videos and studies/analyses from HOH's posters, for example. On the same list, Kharlamov is at #35, and I don't think there are many who nowadays would even choose Kharlamov over Makarov, let alone have him so clearly ahead. Also, Mikhailov at #68 was way too close to Makarov. I doubt Kurri has experienced a similar kind of new appreciaton as Makarov.
 

quoipourquoi

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Except in the playoffs, where Kurri completely destroys Selanne. And Kurri increased his scoring totals immediately after Gretzky was traded.

Having said that, if I have to take one or the other, I might take Selanne... but it's not one-sided, like you're implying.

No doubt. But it’s offset by Selanne’s international record - leading scorer in the 1998 Olympics, leading scorer in the 2006 Olympics, MVP of the 2014 Olympics. Finland won more Olympic medals than any other country during the era of NHL players, including Canada. And in every season where Selanne was a top-10 NHL scorer, he was also his playoff team’s leading goal scorer in each individual playoff round. He was a pressure player... when he was good.

But it’s also kind of my overall point - that it’s not one-sided. If there are elements of the lesser player’s game that a better player lacks, those elements will be magnified in a head-to-head comparison. That Selanne and Kurri are the only two major hockey players from Finland means that they are naturally going to get compared to each other.

If Jaromir Jagr and Sergei Fedorov were the only two players from Latveria, then every time someone called Jaromir Jagr the greatest Latverian player, people’s minds would click and ask... “but what about Sergei Fedorov?” because of defense and playoffs. But it just doesn’t close the gap. Not for Jagr/Fedorov or Selanne/Kurri.

Yes, Kurri increased to 102 points without Gretzky in 1989. If he hadn’t, I don’t know that he’d be getting enough credit for what he was doing. But he also wasn’t hitting ~130 independent of Gretzky like 1985 and 1986.


i only mention kurri because upthread you completely matter-of-factly called selanne the best finnish player of all time. otherwise, yes i don't know that comparing him to kurri helps us too much here because they were in such different situations and, as you say, one guy's case is all offense while the other finished 2, 3, 4, and 5 in selke voting in consecutive seasons.

i'm not going rehearse the kurri/selanne argument, other than to say that hart voting wasn't especially kind to kurri. obviously kurri was in gretzky's shadow the entire time gretzky was there (and he wasn't alone; coffey and fuhr each had one season of serious hart consideration while gretzky was still an oiler, but messier only received three votes total in nine seasons as gretzky's teammate). but more unfortunate for kurri was that his best post-gretzky season was 1989, when the hart was almost literally a three-horse race and also back when it was also a three-man ballot. compare that to messier, who had his career year in 1990, which was pre-suter gretzky's most mortal season.

selanne still would have the much better hart record, against much lighter competition, but if they had used the five-man ballot, it wouldn't be as enormous as three good years of placements vs. practically nothing.

kurri was 69 on the last top players list. makarov was 61. assuming those two players stay close to where they are, i think the high end of almost everyone who's posted's range (~50) seems way too high. even without directly comparing kurri and selanne, i can't see less than ten guys separating makarov and selanne.

Agree on the 5-3-1 ballot argument, though I don’t think Kurri makes too many five-man ballots in 1988-89 either. Tough year. The 5-3-1 ballot worked against Selanne too, however. 1992-93. Also a tough year.

If Selanne lands within 10 players of Makarov, I’ll be convinced I’ve logged into the wrong forum. Usually four or five Russian players before Selanne, and Makarov is probably going 25-35.


I still don’t get how he got this one. His team got bounced in the semi-finals and he didn’t score a point past the quarter-finals, plus he was outscored by his own linemate (Granlund). Karlsson would obviously have been a better choice, and I say that as someone who likes Selänne more than Karlsson. Demitra in 2010 probably would have been a less dubious choice too. I don’t like the "lifetime achievement award" narrative, and it’s the same reason Ovi’s Smythe left a sour taste in my mouth, because some people in the media actually uttered those words.

Same as Joe Sakic in 2002 - leading scorer in the elimination round... which isn’t necessarily a bad reason to be selected MVP. 3 goals, 1 assist, 2 GWGs in three games (Sakic had 3 goals, 2 assists, 1 GWG in three games).

They’re the only two skaters to win Olympic MVP in the era, and neither was their respective tournament’s leading scorer in round robin and elimination rounds combined (Sundin in 2002, Kessel/Karlsson in 2014).

And yes, he did score points beyond the quarterfinals: he had two goals to win the Bronze.
 
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JackSlater

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I still don’t get how he got this one. His team got bounced in the semi-finals and he didn’t score a point past the quarter-finals, plus he was outscored by his own linemate (Granlund). Karlsson would obviously have been a better choice, and I say that as someone who likes Selänne more than Karlsson. Demitra in 2010 probably would have been a less dubious choice too. I don’t like the "lifetime achievement award" narrative, and it’s the same reason Ovi’s Smythe left a sour taste in my mouth, because some people in the media actually uttered those words.

It's pretty obvious why he won, and yes it's pretty much a lifetime achievement award. IIHF award voting tends to be pretty dubious, with Jagr winning a lifetime achievement award at the 2015 IIHF World Championship being a very similar example. I remember a defenceman on Canada's third pairing winning the top defenceman award in 2016 as well. Selanne won the award but he pretty obviously wasn't the best player in that tournament. It should have been Karlsson.
 

quoipourquoi

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It's pretty obvious why he won, and yes it's pretty much a lifetime achievement award. IIHF award voting tends to be pretty dubious, with Jagr winning a lifetime achievement award at the 2015 IIHF World Championship being a very similar example. I remember a defenceman on Canada's third pairing winning the top defenceman award in 2016 as well. Selanne won the award but he pretty obviously wasn't the best player in that tournament. It should have been Karlsson.

More similar than Sakic in 2002? The Czech Republic didn’t medal, and Jagr went scoreless in the Bronze Medal Game in 2015.

Karlsson could have won as the tournament’s leading scorer in 2014, just as Selanne could have won in 1998 and 2006 as the tournament’s leading scorer. There’s only been five tournament MVPs in the era - and three of those were on teams that went 2-1 in the playoff round. That Selanne won in a near identical situation as the only other skater to win MVP - that is being the best player in the playoff round while being outscored overall - indicates that while sentiment may play a role, so does precedent.

And this ignores the most important part: it doesn’t matter if Selanne is or is not MVP. It’s an easy short-hand way of referencing the fact that Selanne was the best international performer of his era, with excellent performances at 27, 35, and 43. Whether they announce his name or Hasek’s or Niittymaki’s or Karlsson’s, he’s not having a one-off great Olympic; it was a trend for him just as it was a trend for Jari Kurri to perform excellent in the pressure situations he was afforded: the NHL playoffs.

At least up until 30.
 

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