Where does Ovie now rank all time?

Sentinel

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My point was that if you compare Ovechkin to anyone else in the top 20 players of all time, his playoff resume is a weakness because everyone else is pretty much ahead of him.

Jagr is the only one, as I said in later posts. And then again - Jagr does have over 200 playoff points, one of 5 players in history to do so. So him vs Ovechkin for playoffs can very easily lean towards Jagr.

Ovechkin isn't a bad playoff performer. But compared to the typical players you see ranked top 20 of all time, his playoff resume is a weakness.
I don't see how Ovechkin's playoff resume is weaker than Hull's. And, again, look at Hull's teammates and look at Ovy's. Ovechkin has pretty much done the same as Hull with much, much less.

Richard played on the greatest squad of all time.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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I don't see how Ovechkin's playoff resume is weaker than Hull's. And, again, look at Hull's teammates and look at Ovy's. Ovechkin has pretty much done the same as Hull with much, much less. Even Richard played on some all-time great squad.

Their playoff numbers are very close.

But Hull played primarily in the 06 era, when scoring was lower and competition tougher.

Consider Bobby Hull played his first 15 playoff games against the Dynasty Habs.
 
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Tobias Kahun

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Not sure what point you are trying to make. Per game production is a real stat, not one that needs translating. What you showed are clear examples, along with Crosby in 2013, that voters disregard the number of games played, and arguably place value on per game production.
I thought the only stat that mattered was your PPG/relative to league.
 
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quoipourquoi

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I don't see how Ovechkin's playoff resume is weaker than Hull's. And, again, look at Hull's teammates and look at Ovy's. Ovechkin has pretty much done the same as Hull with much, much less.

The Blackhawks were a 4x Stanley Cup Finalist with Hull leading them with 33-37-70 in 56 games during those runs to Mikita’s 20-40-60. He played largely in a two-round era and still has more career playoff points. So how has Ovechkin done pretty much the same?
 
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bobholly39

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I don't see how Ovechkin's playoff resume is weaker than Hull's. And, again, look at Hull's teammates and look at Ovy's. Ovechkin has pretty much done the same as Hull with much, much less.

Richard played on the greatest squad of all time.

Hull's playoff resume isn't the strongest either tbh. Out of all the players in the top 20, he also might rate somewhat low. It's still better than Ovechkin though as QPQ just highlighted.

All else being equal between 2 players in the top 20 - if you compare Ovechkin to another player, he loses ground when looking at playoffs.

In contrast to Crosby (who I was saying had no real weaknesses) - I'd argue he's not in the bottom 5 in any major category among top 20 players of all time (prime/peak/playoffs/international/trophy count/ etc etc). He might not even be bottom 10 in any category.

Playoffs is a weakness for Ovi compared to other top 20 players. His smythe/cup helped bring him up to a more respectable level now which is great - but he's still dead last I think, or close.
 

Canadiens1958

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Hull's playoff resume isn't the strongest either tbh. Out of all the players in the top 20, he also might rate somewhat low. It's still better than Ovechkin though as QPQ just highlighted.

All else being equal between 2 players in the top 20 - if you compare Ovechkin to another player, he loses ground when looking at playoffs.

In contrast to Crosby (who I was saying had no real weaknesses) - I'd argue he's not in the bottom 5 in any major category among top 20 players of all time (prime/peak/playoffs/international/trophy count/ etc etc). He might not even be bottom 10 in any category.

Playoffs is a weakness for Ovi compared to other top 20 players. His smythe/cup helped bring him up to a more respectable level now which is great - but he's still dead last I think, or close.

Playoffs and defensively would not make the top 20:

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...y-cup-playoff-performers-of-all-time.2222511/
 

bobholly39

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Technically I think he might break into the top 20 playoff performers by now. This list was done before the last 2 years of playoffs, which have added quite a bit to his resume I expect.

But I think you misunderstood my statement. I was saying - who are the top 20 players of all time? Among those 20 players - he ranks highly in every category. Or at least, he's not bottom 5 in any category.
 

Canadiens1958

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Technically I think he might break into the top 20 playoff performers by now. This list was done before the last 2 years of playoffs, which have added quite a bit to his resume I expect.

But I think you misunderstood my statement. I was saying - who are the top 20 players of all time? Among those 20 players - he ranks highly in every category. Or at least, he's not bottom 5 in any category.

In an open field Crosby does not make defensive and playoff top 20. In a qualified selective field where others are filtered he might.

Not close to playoff top 20 unless those lower than 20 lost their achievements.
 

bobholly39

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In an open field Crosby does not make defensive and playoff top 20. In a qualified selective field where others are filtered he might.

Not close to playoff top 20 unless those lower than 20 lost their achievements.

Well no. Of course Sidney Crosby isn't a top 10 performer in every category among hockey history among all players lol. That's certainly not what I meant. No player comes close to that - nor even Orr, Howe or Gretzky.

We were talking about where to rank Ovi - and I said vs other top 20 players, playoffs is a weakness. Crosby doesn't have much weakness vs other top 20 players of all time, which was my point. He doesn't rank bottom 5 in any major career category imo, and generally is top 10 in most categories, if not higher. Very well rounded resume.

Also regarding playoffs specifically - Sidney Crosby had 2 of his better playoff runs the past two seasons. I don't know that it's enough to propel him from slot 28 to 20 according to this forum but it's certainly not out of the question. It's not about others losing their achievements - it's about him adding achievements of his own.
 

daver

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The Blackhawks were a 4x Stanley Cup Finalist with Hull leading them with 33-37-70 in 56 games during those runs to Mikita’s 20-40-60. He played largely in a two-round era and still has more career playoff points. So how has Ovechkin done pretty much the same?

I would say both players have playoff resumes befitting their regular season statures which sees both as the clear best goalscorer and Hull with clear edge in overall point production.

OV needs more than just one post 2nd round visit to measure up to Hull's four SCF appearances with consideration for the different eras. One more Cup final or a couple of ECFs would do it.

If OV has another season like the last one, or close to it, keeping him behind Hull becomes very arguable.
 

bobholly39

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I would say both players have playoff resumes befitting their regular season statures which sees both as the clear best goalscorer and Hull with clear edge in overall point production.

OV needs more than just one post 2nd round visit to measure up to Hull's four SCF appearances with consideration for the different eras. One more Cup final or a couple of ECFs would do it.

If OV has another season like the last one, or close to it, keeping him behind Hull becomes very arguable.

Which i've heard a lot on this sub-forum lately, that Ovi is very close to Hull.

But then again - the concensus also seems to be Ovi is still closer to 20 overall than 15 overall.
And Hull is generally seen as one of the strongest candidates for #5 - meaning let's say he's 6-7 on average.

I don't think #6 all time should be all that close to #20.

So which is it?

Is Hull too high - should he be closer to 20 too?
Is Ovi too low - should he already be inching closer to 5-10?
Is the gap between the 2 somehow bigger even though their resumes are very similar?

Of course Hull has all that WHA and more longevity. Are you saying Ovi only comes close to Hull for NHL - but with WHA Hull is still easily ahead? Or were you saying overall Ovi is already close to Hull?

Just seems to be a bit of inconsistencies involved here.
 

bobholly39

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Close enough that another Rocket and high end playoff run could close the gap. But you are right OV is 15 to 20ish, Hull is 5 to 10ish.

If Hull if ~7 and Ovi is ~17 - the difference between the 2 should be more than 1 rocket.

It's an inconsistency.
 

Merya

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Who is arguing this? The issue is some are trying to qualify Crosby's career point totals as being valuable than OV's since he only played in 85% of his regular season games.

I have never seen this argument to devalue the career's of Orr, Mario, Forsberg or Lindros. They all get full credit for what they accomplished.
I have often in my sparse posts criticized players who have "half" careers. It's not a very popular opinion here, where eyetest by geriatrics who were in their childhood in their heroes haydays is king. You just have to wait it off.
 

Canadiens1958

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I have often in my sparse posts criticized players who have "half" careers. It's not a very popular opinion here, where eyetest by geriatrics who were in their childhood in their heroes haydays is king. You just have to wait it off.

Yet Bobby Orr played over 100 more NHL RS games in his career than Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore, both strong top 10 candidates.
 

Merya

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Yet Bobby Orr played over 100 more NHL RS games in his career than Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore, both strong top 10 candidates.

This from a HoH veteran? Shame on you! You know why it is so, yet try to use it as an argument, c'mon! I see older legends are free range to mutilate when it comes to st. Orr. Really bad taste. :(
ps. I only have Bourque ahead of Orr in my career/longevity based preference list.
 
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Canadiens1958

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This from a HoH veteran? Shame on you! You know why it is so, yet try to use it as an argument, c'mon! I see older legends are free range to mutilate when it comes to st. Orr. Really bad taste. :(
ps. I only have Bourque ahead of Orr in my career/longevity based preference list.

Called leveling the playing field for all the eras.
 

PenguinSpeed

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In an open field Crosby does not make defensive and playoff top 20. In a qualified selective field where others are filtered he might.

Not close to playoff top 20 unless those lower than 20 lost their achievements.


-Huh? Crosby is 8th All Time in points per game in the playoffs. There is an excellent chance Crosby finishes his career with the 2nd most playoff points of All Time. He has 3 Stanley Cups and 4 finals appearances and isnt close to being done yet. He's won more playoff games then anyone remaining on 1 team going back 30 years.


-There are only 2 active players in the entire NHL over 1 point per game in the playoffs. Crosby and Malkin. Crosby is one of the best playoff performers of all time. He's basically smoked every player in his era in the playoffs outside Malkin.
 

Canadiens1958

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-Huh? Crosby is 8th All Time in points per game in the playoffs. There is an excellent chance Crosby finishes his career with the 2nd most playoff points of All Time. He has 3 Stanley Cups and 4 finals appearances and isnt close to being done yet. He's won more playoff games then anyone remaining on 1 team going back 30 years.


-There are only 2 active players in the entire NHL over 1 point per game in the playoffs. Crosby and Malkin. Crosby is one of the best playoff performers of all time. He's basically smoked every player in his era in the playoffs outside Malkin.

Nicklas Lidstrom won more playoff games with Detroit.

Weak era for players.
 
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daver

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If Hull if ~7 and Ovi is ~17 - the difference between the 2 should be more than 1 rocket.

It's an inconsistency.

And another deep playoff run, which like Crosby, should carry a lot of weight at this point of their careers.

Hull may always stay ahead on the basis that he was on par with Mikita as the best point producer of his era along with being one the all-time great goalscorers. OV was at that level for three seasons. That's not going to change. The wildcard for some may be a low opinion of Hull's post-NHL career.
 
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