Where does Henrik Lundqvist rank all-time amongst goalies?

The Macho King

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What changes are you alluding to?

And maybe we see a lot of statistical "ups and downs" now because.....there are no great goalies.
Goaltending now feels "same-y" as a position. Even the "erratic" ones (say Quick, Bob, Vasi, Fleury) look exactly the same 95% of the time, they're just more flexible so they make some more acrobatic saves. After Brodeur and Thomas left (for all of his faults, the dude was fun to watch), there were no interesting goalies remaining in the league.
 

Michael Farkas

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And where would you rank him all-time?

(I also have him as the best goaltender of the current decade, for what it's worth.)

I will walk a fine line...as I don't want to dodge the question but also don't want to speak out of turn...I don't have anything on paper personally, but eyeballing it, I can't imagine a scenario where he isn't in the top 20. Even if you acknowledge the idea that there are no great goalies in this generation...which I'm not sure I readily subscribe to...
 

Thordic

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What changes are you alluding to?

Increased parity means goalies face skilled teams every night. In the past goalies on decent teams would effectively get the night off when playing bad teams. You think any goalie was worried about the 74-75 Caps or the 93-94 Sens? We just watched an expansion team with zero expectations make a legitimate Cup run. Goalies face a hell of a lot more quality opposition these days.

Skill has also increased. There's no more Iron Curtain locking out, hockey's popularity is increasing on non-traditional markets (You think we would have seen Auston Matthews if he was born 10 years earlier?), and most importantly, teams makeup has changed. Enforcers are pretty much gone. The fourth line is no longer filled with goons and skill-less grinders. Lots of teams have legitimate scoring threats on their top 3 lines and most teams can ice a fourth line that can chip in as well. There are no easy minutes anymore.

The speed of the game has also increased. Skaters are faster, creating more transition plays. I don't have the stats handy but 5v5 goals are significantly more likely to occur on transition plays than plays generated from cycling down low as the goalie has less time to react.

Also there's a hell of a lot more competition. Modern coaching, training, and equipment has closed the gap significantly. There used to be a ton of bad goalies in the league. Now? Almost every team has a goalie who can give them a chance to win every night, and has the ability to steal games. Go look at 90's rosters and look at the starters. Lots of filler.
 

MXD

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I will walk a fine line...as I don't want to dodge the question but also don't want to speak out of turn...I don't have anything on paper personally, but eyeballing it, I can't imagine a scenario where he isn't in the top 20. Even if you acknowledge the idea that there are no great goalies in this generation...which I'm not sure I readily subscribe to...

20 comes really fast, I tell you.
Tony Esposito may barely make mine, and he's a guy that's definitely comparable to Lundqvist. I'm not convinced Lundqvist is the best netminder who made his career in New York.

TBH, I have a good idea of my rankings and he'll end up somewhere very close to 20... probably a tad behind.
 
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DannyGallivan

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If he retired today, where would he rank?
He didn't make my list of the top 120 players of all-time, which is a project on another thread in this section. I have 18 goalies among my top 120 and three others who were pushed off my list, so that means he didn't make my top 21 goalies of all time either.
 

Asheville

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Increased parity means goalies face skilled teams every night. In the past goalies on decent teams would effectively get the night off when playing bad teams. You think any goalie was worried about the 74-75 Caps or the 93-94 Sens? We just watched an expansion team with zero expectations make a legitimate Cup run. Goalies face a hell of a lot more quality opposition these days.

Yea, I bet goalies were having anxiety attacks about the '17-'18 Sabres.

Skill has also increased. There's no more Iron Curtain locking out, hockey's popularity is increasing on non-traditional markets (You think we would have seen Auston Matthews if he was born 10 years earlier?), and most importantly, teams makeup has changed. Enforcers are pretty much gone. The fourth line is no longer filled with goons and skill-less grinders. Lots of teams have legitimate scoring threats on their top 3 lines and most teams can ice a fourth line that can chip in as well. There are no easy minutes anymore.

The likes of Ryan Reaves, Derek MacKenzie, Zac Rinaldo and many other useless plugs/"specialists are still gainfully employed NHLers.

The speed of the game has also increased. Skaters are faster, creating more transition plays. I don't have the stats handy but 5v5 goals are significantly more likely to occur on transition plays than plays generated from cycling down low as the goalie has less time to react.

Eeeexactly.

Speed wasn't invented yesterday.

Oilers of the '80s. Penguins of the '90s. Avalanche of the '00s. Yeah, they could skate as well as anyone today.

Also there's a hell of a lot more competition. Modern coaching, training, and equipment has closed the gap significantly. There used to be a ton of bad goalies in the league. Now? Almost every team has a goalie who can give them a chance to win every night, and has the ability to steal games. Go look at 90's rosters and look at the starters. Lots of filler.

James Reimer, Robin Lehner, Cam Ward, Scott Darling, Jaro Halak, etc. There's still plenty of shit goalies.

Whole lot of baseless rhetoric on your part.

If Hank is the best this generation has to offer, this is a weak era between the pipes.
 

Thordic

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I'm not changing your mind but you clearly have a bias here. You can shove your baseless rhetoric somewhere. I'm out.
 
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Michael Farkas

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Sound post based on the transformation of the game over the last 13 years and then a bunch of not-remotely alike, alleged exceptions posted to the, again, alleged contrary is not a good look...

Ryan Reaves and Derek MacKenzie are/were quality fourth line players.

The game is clearly too fast for its own good at this point. Short shift game, etc.

Putting players like Jaro Halak on the same level as James Reimer is just weird...lacks...uh...anything...
 

mrhockey193195

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I think the criticisms Henrik never separated himself from the pack of elite goalies, and was always "one of the elites", is fair. But it's interesting to note that since the lockout, basically no goalie was consistently elite each and every year over the course of their prime other than Hank. Kipper, Rinne, Thomas, Luongo, Bob, Miller, Quick, Price, Rask - they all had off years when you assumed they wouldn't. Some of them had several. Thus far, Holtby has been the closest in terms of consistency, assuming last regular season was a "one time" underperformance.

Henrik was a top goalie for basically every season from 05-06 to 14-15.
 
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mrhockey193195

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1 Vezina, no Cup.....but best of his generation? Top 15 all-time? Oof! The days of Dom, Pat and Marty are clearly in the distant past. Today's standards for goaltending greatness are....low.

"But he's been carrying horribad Rangers teams forevarrrrr!!! 1! 1!!!"

Keep spewing that, Rangers fans. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Pardon my French, but no shit. The "days" of three of the six greatest goalies of all time are indeed gone. Better goalies to compare Hank against are Belfour, Joseph, Vanbiesbrouck, Barrasso, Kolzig, Richter, Fuhr, etc. As in, the guys who span the 10 to 50 spots in the all-time list. And if you do so in a way that takes context into account when counting trophies (both team and individual), I think he appears pretty favorably to a lot of them.

Without creating my own list, I could see Henrik defensibly fall anywhere from 15 to 40. If he's outside of your top 40, I'd be very curious of your reasoning.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think the criticisms Henrik never separated himself from the pack of elite goalies, and was always "one of the elites", is fair. But it's interesting to note that since the lockout, basically no goalie was consistently elite each and every year over the course of their prime other than Hank. Kipper, Rinne, Thomas, Luongo, Bob, Miller, Quick, Price, Rask - they all had off years when you assumed they wouldn't. Some of them had several. Thus far, Holtby has been the closest in terms of consistency, assuming last regular season was a "one time" underperformance.

Henrik was a top goalie for basically every season from 05-06 to 14-15.

That's why I said we'll have to see what the next generation brings. Is it really harder for a goalie to stand out in the modern game every season? Or is this just a weak generation of goalies, like the mid-late 1930s or late 1960s/early 1970s?

Look at Jagr - his stock has skyrocketed since 2008 or so, as we see just how rare repeat Art Ross winners have become since he retired.
 

Asheville

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Sound post based on the transformation of the game over the last 13 years and then a bunch of not-remotely alike, alleged exceptions posted to the, again, alleged contrary is not a good look...

Ryan Reaves and Derek MacKenzie are/were quality fourth line players.

The game is clearly too fast for its own good at this point. Short shift game, etc.

Putting players like Jaro Halak on the same level as James Reimer is just weird...lacks...uh...anything...

And in this age of supposed superhuman, "better" hockey than ever, let's also talk about how today's goalies benefit from more "defense first" coaching and that any player who ducks their backchecking responsibilities will assuredly be benched. Yet goalies are as average as average gets.
 

Michael Farkas

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And in this age of supposed superhuman, "better" hockey than ever, let's also talk about how today's goalies benefit from more "defense first" coaching and that any player who ducks their backchecking responsibilities will assuredly be benched. Yet goalies are as average as average gets.

I don't know what the superhuman thing is, but it doesn't reference me...nor do I think this is the best hockey ever played. In fact, I even said the game is too fast for its own good...

Let's talk about that...

And, yeah, this is where proper talent evaluation comes into play...not being utilized here...just vote counting it seems...vote counting and odd misconceptions...
 
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Nick Hansen

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I think it is fair to claim that goaltending has become more standardized than it was before. A lot of goalies look more or less the same but obviously there are still some standouts (most noticeably Fleury and Quick who are spectacularly athletic).

How one could include Halak in that segment is beyond me though. He is or was a decidedly talented goaltender. Can't be compared to your standard blocker goalie.
 

The Macho King

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I think it is fair to claim that goaltending has become more standardized than it was before. A lot of goalies look more or less the same but obviously there are still some standouts (most noticeably Fleury and Quick who are spectacularly athletic).

How one could include Halak in that segment is beyond me though. He is or was a decidedly talented goaltender. Can't be compared to your standard blocker goalie.
Even the athletic ones don't stand out most of time. It's still the same butterfly, swallow everything, cut down the angle stuff as everyone else. They're just better at handling cross-ice plays and have better than average recovery.
 
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Michael Farkas

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Efficiency goaltending is exactly what it sounds like...and I don't say that to be a smart ass haha. It's about playing percentages. Focus only on one action at a time, assume that all other things will be taken care of by the defense. Goalies stop some 97 or 98% of unscreened, untipped shots these days. The equipment is tailored to butterfly goalies who just drop and turn themselves into as expansive of a wall as they can humanly be. Don't let things go through you and if they want to make a perfect shot on me, then so be it...but the odds are, you aren't gonna hit that shot. Odds are: you're gonna hit me. Or you're gonna miss.

Stay within the confines of the posts, blockers, gloves, sticks, your head, everything stays inside the frame of the net.

Goalies of the past, like Hasek, maybe Grant Fuhr, whoever...were not efficient. They managed the game differently because the game was different then and the position was different then. Doesn't make them worse, per se...just different. Goalies had different skills and a different sense of the position then...more to manage. Billy Smith constantly catching pucks, putting them down and paddling them to Denis Potvin because the Isles didn't want excessive, needless defensive zone faceoffs. Defensive minded teams are defensive minded because of the way they play in the neutral zone (generalizing for effect here), so, naturally, you're gonna lose a lot of your defensive prowess if the puck and the play is already starting 30 feet from your net, right? You lose that draw, that's an automatic scoring chance against.

Compare to today, very few goalies have that sense, or that desire...stick skills are down across the board, goalies are rarely on their skates when they make saves, if you've played goalie any time in the last ten or so years, certain glove types make it really, really hard to get the puck out of it cleanly and predictably...they aren't like a baseball mitt. Hell, a very common goalie technique and this is really one of the few sticks skills that I even see taught at the youth levels these days is when facing shots that are going low and away, use your stick blade at an angle to ramp it up and OUT OF PLAY! In your own zone! Intentionally! Goalies ask for faceoffs in their own zone these days...because goalies today lack the necessary skills to make better plays.

I know it's fun to watch the highlights from the 80's...watch eight minutes of no saves being made and then go "wow, goalies were bad..." and the position did evolve certainly, that doesn't mean it didn't lose some skill along the way. Goalies are more efficient, they are more predictable...but that came at a price too...
 

ted2019

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Wait

So it's not true?

I really think you check out our 05/06 06/07, 07/08, 08/09, 15/16 and 17/18 squads

You're entitled to your opinion and all and to be honest I really don't care wherever anyone ranks him... But he clearly carried his teams. Even today every analyst and insider discussing the rangers chances in any particular year or playoff run, alway reference him.

As Lundqvist goes so do the rangers.

Although having said that he had good teams between 2013-2015, those were fun times

Just because Lundqvist is the wheel that the Rangers ride on shouldn't mean anything. Historically, I'd say that since the HOH top 40 list done in 2012, he's had a Stanley cup against a superior Kings team and another deep playoff run the following season. He has 2 top 5 Vezina , including a runner-up and a 2nd team AS. In the Rangers Cup season, he placed 6th in the Vezina and finished 6th in the post season AS. In my eyes, that would put him anywhere between 23rd to 28th all time.
 
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psycat

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Well I am of the opinion that playing goalie is somewhat "easy" nowadays, that's why we see a lot of low scoring games. Different "best goaltender in the league" candidates every year etc, I seriously believe that there are hundreds of goalies in lesser leagues that easily could have great seasons in the NHL if they where put on the right teams. People on these boards talk so much about parity and how it's impossible to score 140pts(for example) in todayus league, I don't believe that's true except for when it comes to goalies- I simply can't see a goalie that is so much better than his competition that he is able to rack up multiple Vezina'on ability alone. If on comes along it would be down to the team infront of him.

With that in mind I don't really fault Lundqvist, or Luongo, for not having more individual success and id probably rank him somewhere around 15-20 all time.
 

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