Where did the lateral butterfly come from?

[tinyzombies]

[It's actually called the Profly style and consists of Butterfly Slides or Butterfly Pushes, it's not the lateral butterfly.]

Was watching a 2002 game and Bill Clement compliments Jose Theodore on a lateral butterfly save. It's not a full sliding butterfly like they do today because he goes up and down a bit, but it's still an obvious evolution. Question: who is credited with inventing it?



It's leading to injuries and some question the wisdom of having kids do it from a young age:
The most prevalent goaltending style of the past several decades may soon face extinction

"Pioneers of the profly include Canadian coaches François Allaire and Benoit Allaire, and equipment designer Michel Lefebvre of Koho and RBK fame."
Butterfly style

Even though the Allaires were pioneers, it looks like Roy wasn't part of it. Here he is practicing for the alumni game and an obvious butterfly slide situation comes up and he is not able to execute it:

Click to read more...

 

[Bluesguru]

I believe Tony Esposito would go down in a butterfly, but who invented it, I don’t know. Patrick Roy came into the league as a butterfly goalie in 86, so maybe he’d get the credit for the eventual evolution to the butterfly where it’s used all the time now.

 

[Favster]

Francois Allaire had a big part in developping the butterfly style. He didn't invent it but he was one of the goalie coaches who popularized it.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Poster above me is correct also Benoit Allaire. They really pushed it while Roy made it popular. As to the OP question I don’t know who invented it either

 

[Michael Farkas]

Can you post a/some example(s) please, if possible...?

 

[Moose Head]

Glenn Hall used the butterfly. Lateral Butterfly would seem to be a decent description of his style. Doesn’t that just mean Hybrid?

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Assuming by lateral butterfly you mean this

It seems to have been unheard of in the 80s and earlier because traditional leather doesnt slide so well against ice.

Im too lazy to find the exact spot right now but if you watch this video current to 1986 you can
see an example of one of the student goalies trying to slide laterally in the old real leather pads and the pad makes this scraping squeal sound and he doesnt go anywhere



Modern pads are different in that theyre made of a synthetic leather called Jenpro, which slides better along the ice. In the last 5 years or so theres been a further development with companies like CCM developing even better proprietary sliding materials like Speedskin.

By modern pads Id say ~mid-90s to now. Supposedly the original Vaughan V1s were really significant for this as they came out in roughly 1997 and introduced toe ties which are another major part of the equation

The Evolution of Vaughn Velocity series timeline.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Assuming by lateral butterfly you mean this

It seems to have been unheard of in the 80s and earlier because traditional leather doesnt slide so well against ice.

Im too lazy to find the exact spot right now but if you watch this video current to 1986 you can
see an example of one of the student goalies trying to slide laterally in the old real leather pads and the pad makes this scraping squeal sound and he doesnt go anywhere



Modern pads are different in that theyre made of a synthetic leather called Jenpro, which slides better along the ice. In the last 5 years or so theres been a further development with companies like CCM developing even better proprietary sliding materials like Speedskin.

By modern pads Id say ~mid-90s to now. Supposedly the original Vaughan V1s were really significant for this as they came out in roughly 1997 and introduced toe ties which are another major part of the equation

The Evolution of Vaughn Velocity series timeline.

i've never played goal so i don't know the equipment at all, but i'm guessing that skate technology might also have changed as the position has become so dependent on a goalie's ability to push off?

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

i've never played goal so i don't know the equipment at all, but i'm guessing that skate technology might also have changed as the position has become so dependent on a goalie's ability to push off?

Not really. Goalie skates used to have more toe protection thats disappeared in recent years since most of the foot is usually safe behind the pad compared to a goalie making a skate save. The sharpening profile is changing a bit to deeper hollows to give more bite and more push like you said though

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

i've never played goal so i don't know the equipment at all, but i'm guessing that skate technology might also have changed as the position has become so dependent on a goalie's ability to push off?

This isnt that old of a skate, but notice the hard plastic guard in this model

I use a pair of older CCM goalie skates with a plastic guard that goes up even further. For context Theyre so old they have the red-red-blue CCM logo

The new style is this:

AFAIK the skates are pretty much functionally the exact same as those worn in the 80s, just dropping extra protection because its not needed anymore when nobody makes skate saves

 

[tinyzombies]

Great stuff. I was a goalie in the 80s, so I know well the problem of wet leather pads having zero slide and the toe not having much protection as well. And we were taught to keep the blades dull so we could shuffle on our skates laterally. The pads are also worn very loose now, whereas most goalies had them tight and without rotation back when.

It had to happen around 2000 because Clement is talking about it in 2002 as if it's almost new and Theodore is one of the first, but his comments indicates there were others before Theodore, but not many. I don't remember Roy playing like that and he'd be the obvious candidate being the butterfly king. He was a hybrid butterfly guy, not a profly butterfly guy. He had his pads looses but he didn't do butterfly pushes.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Not really. Goalie skates used to have more toe protection thats disappeared in recent years since most of the foot is usually safe behind the pad compared to a goalie making a skate save. The sharpening profile is changing a bit to deeper hollows to give more bite and more push like you said though

There's been major strides in lighter and stiffer materials in the boot for much better energy transfer. The no Cowling doesn't just remove weight, but to use a techy goalie term, increase attack angle too. Basically let's you get a stronger push from a more severe angle of the skate on the ice, because that piece of plastic isn't in the way. Holders/blade configuraitons and blade profiling too, like you alluded too.

I think improvement in skate technology has definitely played a part. Goalies look like they can so effortlessly and easily go post to post nowadays.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Great stuff. I was a goalie in the 80s, so I know well the problem of wet leather pads having zero slide and the toe not having much protection as well. And we were taught to keep the blades dull so we could shuffle on our skates laterally. The pads are also worn very loose now, whereas most goalies had them tight and without rotation back when.

It had to happen around 2000 because Clement is talking about it in 2002 as if it's almost new and Theodore is one of the first, but his comments indicates there were others before Theodore, but not many. I don't remember Roy playing like that and he'd be the obvious candidate being the butterfly king. He was a hybrid butterfly guy, not a profly butterfly guy. He had his pads looses but he didn't do butterfly pushes.

I did some looking, I think Ive seen 2000s Roy using slides of a sort in a pinch, but its more like a desperation move when hes already moving quickly side to side and he plops down into the butterfly and slides the rest of the way because its more stable. Not the same thing as profly for sure

I did find this example



But I think hes only sliding on one pad and gliding on the other skate

I just suspect the sliding ability might have been somewhat in Roys mind given the story about him having the Lefebres rebuild his Koho pads the way he wanted them before the 1993 playoffs

 

[notDatsyuk]

I played goal, including briefly as a practice goalie for NHLers, from about '75 to '02.

Originally I had the same pads as Johnny Bower: Coopers made of leather stuffed with horsehair. They weighed a ton before they got wet, and were the biggest reason goalies stayed on their feet.

Later on I got to use my son's pads and gloves a couple of times. Both his pads, plus his gloves, weighed about as much as one of my pads! I suddenly found that going up and down in the butterfly was almost effortless; and his trapper, lighter and bigger than mine, snared pucks that would have gone in before.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I played goal, including as a practice goalie for NHLers, from about '75 to '02.

Originally I had the same pads as Johnny Bower: Coopers made of leather stuffed with horsehair. They weighed a ton before they got wet, and were the biggest reason goalies stayed on their feet.

Later on I got to use my son's pads and gloves a couple of times. Both his pads, plus his gloves, weighed about as much as one of my pads! I suddenly found that going up and down in the butterfly was almost effortless; and his trapper, lighter and bigger than mine, snared pucks that would have gone in before.

I know I am speaking for everyone when I say, we'd love to hear some stories and your thoughts on some players...particularly from the 70's and 80's...either way, that's awesome...

 

[DropTheGloves]

Good question, I did find this from a quick Google because it seemed to me like Allaire or one of his disciples had to have led its adoption:

But based on the above discussion either the "lingo" could be wrong, or limitations of equipment at the time forced Roy to abandon it. I then found this post on the Mod Squad forums:

The first pad truly designed to facilitate lateral butterfly movements was probably the first generation Velocity, designed by Pete Smith. Yes, there were flat pads, like what Barrasso wore (also designed by Smith), that provided a more stable surface to seal to the ice. But those were not meant to be worn loose or rotate on the goalie's leg, nor did they have a landing block to keep the pad square to the ice.

30-Years of Innovation

There were only a few gear designers that innovated the gear to suit the new style that pros wanted. Other than Smith, you had Michel Lefebvre, who designed the gear for Koho (working with Roy and the Allaire brothers to develop butterfly style pads) and then designed the first RBK Premier line that was so familiar. And there was also Brian Heaton and Dave Wilcox who were the designers for TPS, and ghosted gear for many of the Heaton pros, like Brodeur.

And then you go deeper down the rabbit hole through that link and you find this:

Between 1997 and 2000, Pete Smith designed, what would become, the Velocity leg pads. At a glance they were squarer and flatter than any of their contemporaries. However, the true innovation they introduced was a dedicated knee landing block. Up to that point, there were inner knee flaps on leg pads meant to protect the inner knee, but these were never really designed to act as the primary landing surface for the knee. Thus, goalies would land partially on the face of the pad forcing the pad to twist and contort under the goalie’s leg. The Velocity pad was designed to easily rotate into the butterfly position with the goalie’s knee landing directly on a thick raised knee block. Rather than tilting toward the ice at a 45 degree angle, the face of the pad would sit completely perpendicular to the ice and present the most possible blocking surface squarely to the shooter.

The knee landing block, along with the many other new features that Pete implemented into his designs during the early 2000’s changed the way leg pads were built and designed but it also dramatically changed the way goalies used their leg pads. From this point forward, goalies began to view the inner edge of the leg pad as a stable landing surface that could be utilized to create a hard seal along the ice. More importantly, this feature also provided the foundation for a new type of lateral mobility; butterfly slides.

So it would seem the first generation of goalies to use the Velocity from 2000 on would've been the first to have the right equipment to play that style.

It makes sense Theodore would have been seen as a pioneer in that sense, as he wore Vaughn starting about then before switching to ITECH in 2005 according to snippets from this paywalled interview with Mike Vaughn that I found.

If someone has a subscription to the NY Hockey Journal, I bet they could answer the question once and for all.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I know I am speaking for everyone when I say, we'd love to hear some stories and your thoughts on some players...particularly from the 70's and 80's...either way, that's awesome...

As for NHLers, it was only for about 20 weeks one year, and to be honest I was too much in awe to remember a lot. And the couple of stories I remember, I couldn't repeat here.

I did have Peter Conacher tell me that I reminded him of Johnny Bower, who was my idol.

 

[tinyzombies]

Good question, I did find this from a quick Google because it seemed to me like Allaire or one of his disciples had to have led its adoption:

But based on the above discussion either the "lingo" could be wrong, or limitations of equipment at the time forced Roy to abandon it. I then found this post on the Mod Squad forums:



And then you go deeper down the rabbit hole through that link and you find this:



So it would seem the first generation of goalies to use the Velocity from 2000 on would've been the first to have the right equipment to play that style. It makes sense Theodore would have been seen as a pioneer in that sense, as he wore Vaughn starting about then before switching to ITECH in 2005 according to snippets from this paywalled interview with Mike Vaughn. If someone has a subscription to the NY Hockey Journal, I bet they could answer the question once and for all.

Great stuff. And once the blocks were created, it's a no-brainer that you want bigger goalies and better athletes. Ball hockey goalies do it now lol. I went in nets in ball hockey and they laughed at my style, but I backstopped my team to the title so booya. But the guy at the other end was plahying another sport altogether to what I was doing it seemed.

 

[notDatsyuk]

This isnt that old of a skate, but notice the hard plastic guard in this model

I use a pair of older CCM goalie skates with a plastic guard that goes up even further. For context Theyre so old they have the red-red-blue CCM logo

The new style is this:

AFAIK the skates are pretty much functionally the exact same as those worn in the 80s, just dropping extra protection because its not needed anymore when nobody makes skate saves

Even in the 70s there were goal skates with the extra plastic shell outside, as in the first picture, and others with the extra padding inside the leather.

The biggest differences I see between these and the ones I wore in the 70s and 80s are:

- the whole boot looks higher off the ground
- the bottom of the boot was parallel to the ice, not higher at the heel
- the upper part of the boot was shorter, giving very little ankle support.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

I played goal, including briefly as a practice goalie for NHLers, from about '75 to '02.

Originally I had the same pads as Johnny Bower: Coopers made of leather stuffed with horsehair. They weighed a ton before they got wet, and were the biggest reason goalies stayed on their feet.

Later on I got to use my son's pads and gloves a couple of times. Both his pads, plus his gloves, weighed about as much as one of my pads! I suddenly found that going up and down in the butterfly was almost effortless; and his trapper, lighter and bigger than mine, snared pucks that would have gone in before.

I have an old Cooper trapper and even the design seems more reminiscent of a catchers mitt. By comparison even the design of a smaller modern glove is superior. With a modern trapper when the puck hits the T the whole thing snaps shut around the puck without any input from the user. Ive almost never seen popout in my modern gloves, and theres really no fear in catching the hardest shots because the impact is above where your hand sits in the glove

Good question, I did find this from a quick Google because it seemed to me like Allaire or one of his disciples had to have led its adoption:

But based on the above discussion either the "lingo" could be wrong, or limitations of equipment at the time forced Roy to abandon it. I then found this post on the Mod Squad forums:



And then you go deeper down the rabbit hole through that link and you find this:



So it would seem the first generation of goalies to use the Velocity from 2000 on would've been the first to have the right equipment to play that style.

It makes sense Theodore would have been seen as a pioneer in that sense, as he wore Vaughn starting about then before switching to ITECH in 2005 according to snippets from this paywalled interview with Mike Vaughn that I found.

If someone has a subscription to the NY Hockey Journal, I bet they could answer the question once and for all.

Ill chip in 10$ to make it happen

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Even in the 70s there were goal skates with the extra plastic shell outside, as in the first picture, and others with the extra padding inside the leather.

The biggest differences I see between these and the ones I wore in the 70s and 80s are:

- the whole boot looks higher off the ground
- the bottom of the boot was parallel to the ice, not higher at the heel
- the upper part of the boot was shorter, giving very little ankle support.

Good point about the height of the boot, making the plastic holder higher means a goalie pushing in the butterfly can catch the ice at a lower attack angle

 

[notDatsyuk]

I have an old Cooper trapper and even the design seems more reminiscent of a catchers mitt. By comparison even the design of a smaller modern glove is superior. With a modern trapper when the puck hits the T the whole thing snaps shut around the puck without any input from the user. Ive almost never seen popout in my modern gloves, and theres really no fear in catching the hardest shots because the impact is above where your hand sits in the glove

I had the old Cooper gloves too. I could put my whole trapper inside my son's!