Where are we in the rebuild?

Jul 30, 2005
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I mean, what is location, really
I think our team has been bad for long enough that we don't even know what a good team would look like. Like, honestly, if Bertuzzi and Mantha are on your first line, you're not going anywhere.

Cholowski and Karlsson on the same pairing would be a complete and utter trainwreck, too. Cholowski would have to make serious, serious strides in his own zone, because that is absolutely not how Karlsson earns his living.
 

Reddwit

Registered User
Feb 4, 2016
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Impossible to know before July-ish. Too many unanswered questions:
  • Do we get fat returns for our UFAs at the deadline or do we re-sign them all/some?
  • If we get great assets at the deadline, does that make us more willing/able to consummate a trade?
  • Where do we end up in the draft lottery? 1st? 8th? Do we end up with Hughes/Kakko and Karlsson/Trouba by mid-summer? Or do we end up with a prospect in the 8-10 range and no UFA/trades of note?
  • Are there teams right now who are deciding whether or not to commit to a rebuild or hit the panic button and spend futures on band-aids? (e.g., does St. Louis commit to a rebuild and decide to give Pietrangelo the Karlsson treatment and trade him a year before his contract ends to get max value for him?)
  • Who is our GM? Is it Holland and is he in control? Is it Holland acting as a figurehead while Yzerman is brought on? Does Holland leave outright? If he does leave, is it before or after the draft/off-season?
One thing I think most can agree on, though, is that we're further ahead in the rebuild than most expected. Almost everyone we needed to take the next step has done so. We started the year without a bona fide 1C - now we have a 1C and a future Captain. We started the year with just 1 skilled defenseman - now we have 2 young ones who look capable of playing 2nd pairing minutes as rookies. All of Veleno, AA, Bertuzzi, and MacIssac have answered the bell while Zadina, Mantha, and Rasmussen have satisfied.
 

RabidBadger

Mazur detractors will look like dummies!
Sep 9, 2007
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The Wings are not going to sign Erik Karlsson. He's not an idiot.

Besides, he's looking to play on a contender and make the most money possible. We can't provide one and shouldn't provide the other.

I'm not sure why people are are hoping for Karlsson now. Yeah he's awesome, but he's the type of player that would be good to add 4-5 years down the road if the emerging core pans out.

As it stands, it seems the biggest needs going forward are at center and D. One could argue goaltending as well. If they draft a stud center this year the center depth is set, assuming Veleno pans out.Defense is promising with Cholo and Hronek as good bets to succeed, and Lindstrom and McIsaac in the wings (no pun intended). You have to hope for a real solid picks the next two years and hope someone among Kotkansalo, Regula, Setkov, etc. pans out. Goaltending is spotty. We need Larsson to pan out or hope for a good free agent.

It's always a crapshoot with prospects, but the draft choices have been solid lately. I have hopes for being a contender in about 4-5 years.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
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Karlsson and Hughes make the team the team first round fodder. Unless they get Trouba and another winger on top of it the team just goes from dismal to alright.
 

Red Stanley

Registered User
Apr 25, 2015
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Lol. You can see how the goalposts move. Now he's so confident they'll make the playoffs NEXT year. But he said that about THIS year LAST year.

I wish Holland were even half the salesman he's trying to be.
Where in the video did you hear that? All I heard was "hoping" and "hopefully" and "down the road". He also said that we're for sure not done stockpiling picks yet. He never said he was confident we'd make the playoffs last year, either.
 
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Jul 30, 2005
17,660
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I mean, what is location, really
Where in the video did you hear that? All I heard was "hoping" and "hopefully" and "down the road". He also said that we're for sure not done stockpiling picks yet. He never said he was confident we'd make the playoffs last year, either.
It sounds like they're planning on that being the case, which is bad enough. He also said he thinks they're done stockpiling draft picks for beyond this year, which is probably a serious misstep.

I mean, you don't say that kind of thing if it isn't a reasonable goal in your mind. That's just nonsense then. He didn't talk about how he hopes to win the Cup next year.
 

Red Stanley

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Apr 25, 2015
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It sounds like they're planning on that being the case, which is bad enough. He also said he thinks they're done stockpiling draft picks for beyond this year, which is probably a serious misstep.

I mean, you don't say that kind of thing if it isn't a reasonable goal in your mind. That's just nonsense then. He didn't talk about how he hopes to win the Cup next year.
To me it sounded like cautious optimism or simply a wait-and-see type of reply to some of these questions, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Don't think you can plan for anything more than drafting and development at this point in time. He also did say he'd be thrilled to add more picks this year, which tells me he's actively shopping the UFAs.
 

Ishad

Registered User
Jun 2, 2010
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Forward core will be looking solid after the next draft. Our D is a dumpster fire until proven otherwise. 3 more years of suck.
 

avssuc

Hockey is for everyone!
May 1, 2016
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Future draft picks don't play hockey.

How many players on the team/in the system are better at hockey than Nyquist and Howard?

Tearing down is easy.
Teardown ≠ Rebuild

The problem with not moving them is that you are not maximizing chances of future success. Let's say the Wings re-up both and then spend the next half decade as a bubble team before needing to rebuild... or 'teardown'. That would be a tough pill to swallow, and most of us would point to their contracts as part of the reason why the inevitable was delayed.

Speaking from a purely statistical standpoint, the Wings are better off moving both. Besides, who really knows they won't get a new contract with the Wings even after being moved.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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My answer is going to change depending who is GM next year. Because I honestly don't trust Holland to sell/cut his loyal veterans in a way to expedite the process.

If literally every current decent prospect is a hit, that will be 2021. If not, realistically you're looking at 2023 at the earliest. If players like Nyquist, as good as he's been, meander around, the gooey middle of the NHL standings and draft could be lukewarm existence.
 

DetroitRed

Crashes the Crease
Apr 7, 2013
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I wont see them as rebuilt until they get rid of all the bad contracts. So, there's a chance that in 2023/2024, if they haven't added more bad contracts, they'll have enough money to start putting something good together, if they are a winning team by then.

Three years into the rebuild, with a minimum of five more to go. That's where I see them.
 
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PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
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The organization could be forward rich in pretty short order after this offseason

The return to contender status will rely on finding multiple top 4 caliber D and a new starting goaltender
 

razor ray

Registered User
May 8, 2011
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Build through the draft. Red Wings can’t half-ass this. Suffer for one or two more years to get these old contracts out and get some young high-end talent.
 

SCD

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Apr 8, 2018
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Forward core will be looking solid after the next draft. Our D is a dumpster fire until proven otherwise. 3 more years of suck.
The return to contender status will rely on finding multiple top 4 caliber D and a new starting goaltender

People expect way too much from the young D at this point. It takes a lot longer for defenseman to develop than forwards. Rare to see a defenseman have an impact before 22, and often 24 in this league.

This team has Cholowski, Hronek, Lindstrom, and McIssac as a core for the rebuild. We may find a contributor out of Regula, Barton, Kotkansalo, or Setkov. But it is 2-4 years before this entire group really takes over. It is not like they are not in the organization, they just are not anywhere near being ready.

I am concerned with our depth at forward.
 

PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
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People expect way too much from the young D at this point. It takes a lot longer for defenseman to develop than forwards. Rare to see a defenseman have an impact before 22, and often 24 in this league.

This team has Cholowski, Hronek, Lindstrom, and McIssac as a core for the rebuild. We may find a contributor out of Regula, Barton, Kotkansalo, or Setkov. But it is 2-4 years before this entire group really takes over. It is not like they are not in the organization, they just are not anywhere near being ready.

I am concerned with our depth at forward.

Absolutely -- I didn't mean they needed to be found externally

I'd imagine Cholowski is a guy that can be counted on in the top 4 throughout most of his career, but outside of that we don't know yet for sure (Hronek seems pretty likely as well, but might not quite hit his ceiling)

Maybe a guy like Karlsson, Trouba, etc. will want to come here and we can fast track that aspect to some degree, but we still have to draft and develop
 

Kronwalled55

Detroit vs. Everybody
Jan 7, 2011
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Until a lot of the familiar faces are moved elsewhere this team isn't truly "rebuilding."

Part of a rebuild is identifying which pieces that have been here aren't making the cut. It's a lot of tough decisions, but the more I watch this team the more I realize the players that we've hung onto for years and years now would be complete non-factors or not even in the league if they weren't on the Red Wings. The new guys that we have brought in have shown promise and are really the only reason why we can even speculate the rebuild is making progress.

We're 2 points away from being the worst in the entire league all while spending 100% to the salary cap. There's got to be some accountability here. If this was any of the other 3 major sports in North America there would have been major moves by now.
 

SCD

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Apr 8, 2018
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The next expansion draft really screws us. We are going to lose someone with talent or pay a significant price in the way of a draft pick. The one year delay is significant. I am not sure what is Lindstrom's ceiling. But if we sign a high level defenseman, Lindstrom will be exposed since we can only protect three.
 

SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
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Until a lot of the familiar faces are moved elsewhere this team isn't truly "rebuilding."

Rebuilding is making decisions that will benefit the future, more than today.

You can't replace players without having the pieces to replace them with. Although GR is doing well, it is career AHLers that are making that happen.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
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Dont have a sub. What do they say in short?
It's a very in-depth piece. They believe the '22 and '23 seasons will be when Detroit is a serious contender again.
They think we *could* be a contender by then, IF a few things fall into place. Like picking up another Larkin-level center, a couple of top line wingers (or Zadina turns into one), finding a 1D, and a good goalie.

Because we probably aren't riding Howard then if we're a contender, if he's even still on the team. And they said pretty clearly most contenders have at 2 guys like Larkin or better centering their lines. That center depth is crucial. They also slotted guys like AA and Bertuzzi and Mantha in the middle 6, not even top line. Basically, we don't HAVE top line wingers in our system yet. And those are some big holes.

Yeah. We could be a contender. They identified trade/UFA targets like Mark Stone who could fill in some gaps pretty good. But those are still huge question marks for so many obvious reasons.
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
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Lol. You can see how the goalposts move. Now he's so confident they'll make the playoffs NEXT year. But he said that about THIS year LAST year.

I wish Holland were even half the salesman he's trying to be.
He's f***ing clueless. Keep retooling on the fly Kenny!! Been saying that same thing with slightly different wording for 6+ years while we drop to the bottom of the standings. Get Yzerman here and we'll be competitive in 5 years. Keep the Holland shit show going and there will be no end in sight to the "retool on the fly!!!"
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
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Lol. You can see how the goalposts move. Now he's so confident they'll make the playoffs NEXT year. But he said that about THIS year LAST year.

I wish Holland were even half the salesman he's trying to be.
Where did he say that last year?

He's ****ing clueless. Keep retooling on the fly Kenny!! Been saying that same thing with slightly different wording for 6+ years while we drop to the bottom of the standings. Get Yzerman here and we'll be competitive in 5 years. Keep the Holland **** show going and there will be no end in sight to the "retool on the fly!!!"
He's not been saying the same things, like... at all. Yzerman would do very little differently. This is the hard job of rebuilding that he largely skipped in Tampa. He already had Stamkos and Hedman there. He entered that team at a timeframe that we'll be in hopefully soon, maybe in 1-2 years. Maybe that's where his can be great; at tweaking a team with core pieces in place into the right formation. But that's something Holland has also done, actually more successfully than Yzerman.

I'm sure if we brough in Yzerman before the draft lottery this year and we won the lottery, it would somehow be credited to Yzerman, while losing the lottery would be attributed to Holland.

The next expansion draft really screws us. We are going to lose someone with talent or pay a significant price in the way of a draft pick. The one year delay is significant. I am not sure what is Lindstrom's ceiling. But if we sign a high level defenseman, Lindstrom will be exposed since we can only protect three.
It will only screw us if we are in a really good situation with lots of players we want to protect. That's a good problem to have, and in that scenario we might afford to sacrifice a draft pick to protect someone since we'll have a very young team and we'll be coming off of years of drafting tons of players so the pipeline will be stocked.
 
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Jul 30, 2005
17,660
4,588
I mean, what is location, really
Where did he say that last year?
He's been saying this stuff every year now.

Red Wings' Ken Holland: Long-term rebuild not the way to go
"These fans want to watch playoff hockey. Nobody wants to see a rebuild. They want to see us be competitive. They want to see us have a chance to win the Stanley Cup. While we're trying to draft and develop and get better long-term, one of our short-term goals is trying to figure out how to make the team as good as it can be and hope that team can qualify for the playoffs."

Ken Holland on Wings’ ‘old’ defense, free agency, more
Holland believes playoff contention could be a year or two away, as the organization accumulates young players and identifies pieces who can help the rebuild effort.

Ken Holland discusses Red Wings’ moves on Day 1 of free agency
What are Holland’s expectations for the upcoming season? Here’s what he had to say.
“The hope is that we can hang in. The longer that we can hang in, the better the environment is for everybody – our fans, our players, especially our young players – but ultimately my focus as the manager is probably on this team a little bit down the road. I don’t want it to be way down the road, but a little bit down the road. Hopefully we can surprise, hopefully we can hang in, and be in the playoff race. In order for that to happen, some of the young people who were on the team last year that took a step, they need to take another step, and we need some of the veteran players to come in and play at the same level or play a touch better.



As though it was possible? Talk about denial.
 
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