Where are the PA counter-proposals??

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krandor

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Jan 28, 2005
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Munchausen said:
I can already see the outcome of today's meeting... Let me guess, philosophical differences?

That's tomorrow. Today's outcome is more meetings tomorrow. Friday is philosophical difference day.
 

AlexGodynyuk

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Feb 3, 2005
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Neither side has really made a good proposal to this point in the process.
Now this whole try yours, then try mine proposal.
They can't agree on one CBA, now they're going to write up two of them, or does each side just get to unilaterally implement whatever they want.
Both sides are being idiots, there are solutions that meet in the middle that would be much better then the crap either side is putting out.
 

Tawnos

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Proposals have been the sole reason on why there is no chance of a deal to this point. Just because there is no formal proposal doesn't mean that the PA hasn't been negotiating by discussing ideas with the NHL. The PA likely feels that without a basis for a deal, there is no point in making a proposal. That basis should be, and likely is, the PA's main motivation in having talks with the league.

In other words, the PA doesn't seem interested in haggling, but rather in working together.

As for "the Dec 9 proposal or nothing comment" I would take it with a grain of salt. All comments are designed to put pressure on the other side, nothing more... nothing less.
 

I Hate You All*

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The Iconoclast said:
Who knows if they will follow through on Chelios' threats from 10 years ago?
Hey, check out the Rant Thread. Brent Klatt had something to say about that a few pages back.

edit: Rant of the Day thread... reply #198
 
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txomisc

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gc2005 said:
There is no point making proposals that you know are going to be rejected. What the PA is doing (presumably) is talking with the NHL, trying to see if there's something they can do. Why waste time and make the same proposal day after day? The NHL keeps dishing out proposals that are for all intents and purposes, the same. Plus they know the PA won't accept. This hasn't helped the process at all.

The PA could release a proposal every day this week:
(1) 24% rollback
(2) 0.76 multiplier on all salaries
(3) Accept the owner's proposal, but if the sun rises at least once by next week, then automatically revert back to the PA original proposal

None of this would help the process. Talking to each other and trying to negotiate just might.
You know, this is exactly the reverse of about two months ago. PA supporters (not necessarily you) were saying "The PA has made several offers and the NHL hasn't made on in quite awhile." Back then, when NHL supporters response was "Why should they make a proposal when they know its not going to be accepted" It was shot down.
 

nyr7andcounting

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Pepper said:
:lol :lol :lol

You must be kidding, Larry Brooks and Al Strachan have been chearleading PA's position from day 1 and they have published info about forthcoming PA proposals days before it was actually given to owners.

Please, try to argue on factual level.

Two guys? You call 2 beat writers a huge propoganda machine? I am reffering to the freaking web site that the nhl put up simply to cover the CBA, simply to sway public opinion. Not to mention, there are easily as many people out there writing for the NHL as there are for the PA.
 

nyr7andcounting

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You're joking, right?

Are you telling me that the PA has made more of an effort to sway public opinion than the NHL has?

The NHL's latest proposal was made almost exclusively for PR. They knew the PA wouldn't accept it, and told them that it was not negotiable. It was a yes or no proposal and Bettman already knew the answer. They proposed it simply so that they could get headlines that say 'PA declines their own proposal'. And, so that if they go in front of the NLRB they can say it to them as well.
 

Chayos

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go kim johnsson said:
Because they know that what they want is not what the owners want. They figure why make proposals that will only waste people's time since they know they won't accept what the PA wants AND the owners keeping making propsals anyways. They've made their concessions, it's time for the owners to do that.

Your a fool if you think that!

By not making any proposals, even meaningless ones they are falling into the owners hands come impasse time. There is no logic to tehir stand as it is right now. Without meaningful offers from their side they leave themselves open to having their union broken when the owners declare an impasse. The NHLPA NEEDS to be making proposals, even useless unproductive offers can be shown as negotiating.

I have been reading your posts through various threads and they are based on your assumptions of the situation and are inherently flawed. The players are being lead down teh garden path by Sideshow BOB thinking it doesn't matter what we offer in the end the owners will cave. Well he has cost them close to $700 million dollars so far plus the $2.5 million they wasted paying him to NOT do his job.

What I fail to see is how the players feel they can ever recoupe the money they have lost so far this season and the money they stand to lose if their gamble fails. These guys probably have an average of 7 earning years and if you lose 2 of those how can you hope to recoup that money in teh remaining 5 years. Talk about drinking someones kool-aid there.
 

Pepper

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nyr7andcounting said:
Two guys? You call 2 beat writers a huge propoganda machine? I am reffering to the freaking web site that the nhl put up simply to cover the CBA, simply to sway public opinion. Not to mention, there are easily as many people out there writing for the NHL as there are for the PA.

Brooks & Strachan are 2 of the most well-known hockey 'journalists' around, they have daily columns which get lots of publicity. Give me 1 hockey journalist who has been as visibly pro-owner as Strachan & Brooks have been pro-PA (and I mean has been publishing as much pro-owners propaganda as those two).
 

TonySCV

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Pepper said:
Brooks & Strachan are 2 of the most well-known hockey 'journalists' around, they have daily columns which get lots of publicity. Give me 1 hockey journalist who has been as visibly pro-owner as Strachan & Brooks have been pro-PA (and I mean has been publishing as much pro-owners propaganda as those two).

How about a few dozen writers who are pro-NHL, but just aren't nuts about it like those two guys are. When you find even 5 writers that are consistently pro-PA, let me know.
 

Mess

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Pepper said:
Why is it that PA hasn't made a single proposal since early december (2months ago) while NHL has made atleast 4 in the same time?

PA only keeps rejecting all the proposals but they haven't made any proposals themselves. League has so far compromised quite considerably (33% increase in the hard cap, several other concessions) but PA's only real offer is still the ridiculous december 9th offer.

It seems to me that only one side is really interested in getting a deal and it most certainly isn't PA.

Bettman's latest offer was a good basis, let's go with PA's proposals as long as it works, if it doesn't work let's go with NHL's model. Now they only have to work out the triggers.

So where are the counter-proposals???
Nothing to counter propose .. The sides are are polar opposites and any NHLPA proposal will not contain cost certainty and have a luxuary tax so its just a waste of time .. Until they find common ground they should just meet .. Proposals are immediatly rejected anyway on both sids ..

The NHLPA could just as easy flip it around and say we start with the NHL proposal and then flip to the NHLPA one when it fails and have similar triggers that virtually guarantee that the NHL one will fail .. For example the NHL suggested a 32 min - 42 max range ..

The NHLPA could say if any 3 teams fall below the $ 32 mil min mark in salary we switch to the NHLPA proposal .. That is no different then what the NHL did .. They said if 3 or more teams exceed $ 42 million we roll over .. and as on right now after a rollback included .. Philly, Toronto, Detroit and NJ are over .. In the flip side .. immediately Boston , Pittsburgh, Florida, Atlanta are way under the $32 min amount, and the NHL proposal has failed immediately as well.. Anyone that can't see both sides is being a Hypocrite ..because it really is the same from both sides .. Bettman would reject that proposal outright and we would hear the same nonsense that Bettman didn't even accept his own proposal or thought it wouldn't work ..

Why would it be different .. The NHLPA is even using Bettman's own numbers in the triggers against him with 100% guaranteed failure immediately .. ??

But what would that serve ??
 

Digger12

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Feb 27, 2002
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I would think it should be fairly obvious at this point what the strategy of the NHLPA is during this whole farce...wait for the owners to cave like every other time in history. When in doubt, say NO.

And if they can prod things along by getting Gary Bettman fired, all the sweeter for them. They see Bettman as the weak link in the owners' armour, and they're going for it. From personal attacks on his character, to strategic quotes in the media about how the 'big markets' aren't having their interests properly represented. I suspect the NHLPA sense a simmering restlessness from the big market teams that would do well financially regardless of what financial system is in place, and are happily picking at that scab for all it's worth.

With the season all but cancelled at this point, expect things to get even nastier...from BOTH sides.
 

Johnnybegood13

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Jul 11, 2003
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The Messenger said:
No

The NHLPA could just as easy flip it around and say we start with the NHL proposal and then flip to the NHLPA one when it fails and have similar triggers that virtually guarantee that the NHL one will fail .. For example the NHL suggested a 32 min - 42 max range ..

The NHLPA could say if any 3 teams fall below the $ 32 mil min mark in salary we switch to the NHLPA proposal .. That is no different then what the NHL did .. They said if 3 or more teams exceed $ 42 million we roll over .. and as on right now after a rollback included .. Philly, Toronto, Detroit and NJ are over .. In the flip side .. immediately Boston , Pittsburgh, Florida, Atlanta are way under the $32 min amount, and the NHL proposal has failed immediately as well.. Anyone that can't see both sides is being a Hypocrite ..because it really is the same from both sides .. Bettman would reject that proposal outright and we would hear the same nonsense that Bettman didn't even accept his own proposal or thought it wouldn't work ..

Why would it be different .. The NHLPA is even using Bettman's own numbers in the triggers against him with 100% guaranteed failure immediately .. ??

But what would that serve ??
Call me crazy but i think it's a lot easier to SPEND money if you need too then to cut money that you have too.

Bettman would take that deal in a minute!
 

dunwoody_joe

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It strikes me that the NHL's strategy is very clear. They are moving toward attempting to decertify the NHLPA. Each move is calculated against how it will play in court later this year. Bettman's actions are no longer geared toward resolution.

If this is true, then the NHLPA seems to be playing into their hands. The NHLPA is in a high risk strategy because if decertified, the union will be broken and the door will be open for replacement players. From there, any remaining leverage for the Union is gone.

As a fan, I am increasingly disgusted and disinterested. Players have lost 1 year's salary and the owner's 1 year of revenue--cool! I lost 1 season of watching hockey with my 11 year old daughter. None of us will have this year back; and I lost the most! :cry:
 

Pepper

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Aug 30, 2004
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TonySCV said:
How about a few dozen writers who are pro-NHL, but just aren't nuts about it like those two guys are. When you find even 5 writers that are consistently pro-PA, let me know.

Name those few dozen hockey writers who are constantly pro-NHL and get as much as publicity as Brooks & Strachan.

You can be pro-PA or pro-NHL writer without being a propagandamachine like those two clowns.
 

codswallop

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The Messenger said:
Anyone that can't see both sides is being a Hypocrite

I agree with that. But unfortunately within the context of the rest of your comment, I can't see that you actually view both sides with any objectivity. The bias is somewhat evident. A double-edged sword, but not always evident to those wielding it.

And just to note; Atlanta's payroll as of now is ~$28M, and the only two left to sign are Heatley or Kovalchuk. Regardless of what restrictions or non-restrictions may be put upon payroll, both of them will be offered around $4M per year (give or take). And there hasn't been the least hint from their agents of negotiating upwards, especially given our current situation. Can't speak for the other teams you mentioned, but Atlanta isn't a team that would pose a salary problem one way or the other. Others may change as well if they have to sign players not currently under contract. Not to mention UFAs that are still on the market. The numbers aren't nearly stable yet...
 

tantalum

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nyr7andcounting said:
Are you telling me that the PA has made more of an effort to sway public opinion than the NHL has?

The NHL's latest proposal was made almost exclusively for PR. They knew the PA wouldn't accept it, and told them that it was not negotiable. It was a yes or no proposal and Bettman already knew the answer. They proposed it simply so that they could get headlines that say 'PA declines their own proposal'. And, so that if they go in front of the NLRB they can say it to them as well.

They both have PR machines. Both have wesites which they use to post their views. IN fact the NHLPA tried to make the biggest PR impact by releasing the 24% paycut offer in FULL to everyone who visited their website before giving the owners a chance to look it over and respond. Both are guilty of using PR but only one side is winning that battle.
 

shnagle

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tantalum said:
They both have PR machines. Both have wesites which they use to post their views. IN fact the NHLPA tried to make the biggest PR impact by releasing the 24% paycut offer in FULL to everyone who visited their website before giving the owners a chance to look it over and respond. Both are guilty of using PR but only one side is winning that battle.
And both sides have lost the WAR. Congratulations Gary! You finally have had a successful PR campaign. You presided over the decline of the sport I love and did absolutely nothing to fix it but hey you were able to convince everyone that you were right and the league needed cost certainty at the expense of hockey. And as for you Bob, it's time to get off your high horse and realize the game is in trouble and that players make too much money.
So we are right back where we started in this lockout with Cap vs. NO Cap and NETIHER side has worked off the others proposals. Most people see that there is a deal to be made here yet we still have no hockey because it's become more important for each side to claim victory rather than find a collectively bargained solution. Feel free to take a side but ask yourself what either side has done for you, the fan. To me its simple, we still have no hockey.
 
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