When You Think It's Really Bad...

SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
1,607
1,037
With respect to the Wings, things have not gone as well as most of us would like.

Just realize things could be worse.

Just imagine being a Senator fan.

Ownership is a idiot. Their locker room is a disaster. Their franchise player is likely headed else where. They mortgaged their future several years ago to make a run at the Cup. As a result, they lost their #33 pick this year. They traded their number one pick for 2019 in awful trade last fall.

At least their is a glimmer of hope for the Wings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ulysses31

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,683
This ‘18 Draft was a big step in the right direction. Hopefully we keep prioritizing skill and upside in future drafts.

I think Holland will be running the Seattle franchise in 2020, so as long as he leaves us with a solid prospect pipeline and doesn’t add any more bad contracts, we are in a decent spot.

Lining up Mark Hunter as his successor would he huge, that would be an ideal situation in my books. That would put us on a path I feel really good about.
 

lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
9,589
3,424
There are plenty bed franchises Oilers Avalanche Islanders Buffalo,who cares. I believe in KH and Red wings. It will be great season for Mantha and Larkin. If Blush can't restart this team, get read of him . Outside Larkin looks like nobody cares . That is a coach job. Interesting things like when after AA come from hold out and when Hicketts came team were playing very good, like they were sleeping and those 2 wake them up. That is coach job, they have plenty talent ,not much motivation
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Ottawa's incompetence doesn't make Ken Holland's okay or any better. Everyone knew that this day would come, and Holland mortgaged the team's future not for a cup run, but for a couple 1st round exits. While this years draft added a great piece and an intriguing piece, doesn't mean that Detroit still doesn't have major, glaring holes in its depth chart, and Holland resigning players that serve no purpose in a rebuild, and have a track record of never returning much in trade show he's not committed to a real rebuild, but still thinks in his heart of hearts hes a few tweaks away.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
12,078
Tampere, Finland
Ottawa's incompetence doesn't make Ken Holland's okay or any better. Everyone knew that this day would come, and Holland mortgaged the team's future not for a cup run, but for a couple 1st round exits. .

Just in curiosity, what were these devastating mortgages?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Oddbob

HIFE

Registered User
May 10, 2011
3,219
250
Detroit, MI
Ottawa's incompetence doesn't make Ken Holland's okay or any better. Everyone knew that this day would come, and Holland mortgaged the team's future not for a cup run, but for a couple 1st round exits. While this years draft added a great piece and an intriguing piece, doesn't mean that Detroit still doesn't have major, glaring holes in its depth chart, and Holland resigning players that serve no purpose in a rebuild, and have a track record of never returning much in trade show he's not committed to a real rebuild, but still thinks in his heart of hearts hes a few tweaks away.

This may be true but I like the idea of a dedicated thread to dissect/trash other teams and their GM's as well!

As said in the NHL thread Buffalo is on what, their 3rd rebuild in 10 years? Montreal is and has been a mess, don't know what direction they're going. Arizona after decades and multiple high picks can't put anything together. Talk about losing culture. Then there's good, respectable teams like St. Louis and Minni that that never get over the hump. Must be frustrating.

I've posted my disdain for Vanek but there were a bunch of FA signing that I don't love. McDonough is the first off the top of my head. Not a guy I want to be saddled to for 5-7 (?) years. Tavares, as much as I guess you can't turn away from is not the same player as at 21. The timing seems off for when the Leafs could make noise in 5 years.
 

SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
1,607
1,037
Holland has shied away from in-season trades, for right or for wrong. The last major in-season trade was 96 Shanahan for Coffey&Primeau by Bowman.

I would disagree that he has track record of not returning much in trades. When you are a buyer, it is always going to be disproportionally expensive. The opposite for sellers. KH has actually done well as a seller.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Just in curiosity, what were these devastating mortgages?

Trading away a first rounder of KFQ, trading prospects and picks for rentals, not promoting players and playing vets so that the Wings aren't able to actually evaluate their assets. I know you will likely come back and go on about how x prospect wouldn't have made y impact. But the point is that if they have worth to be used in trades, trading them for rentals is poor asset management for a long term build, IE mortgaging their future. Instead they could have either played them, and either have them succeed and have a good player, or fail and in the end get better picks. By trading them for win now assets they don't do either of those things. There are more than a few moves that kept Detroit on life support for years longer than they otherwise would be.
 

SCD

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
1,607
1,037
People assume these were all Holland's decisions. What impact did Mr I have on team direction. He was at the end of his life, and although I had not spoken with him since high school, the Wings and Tigers direction was a win-now mentality. I think that is evident in both teams personnel decisions.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,202
14,898
crease
mRGkgRb.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Syckle78

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
10,844
8,567
If some 21 year old dude named Dyle Kubas took over as GM 2 years ago 99% of people would be celebrating how awesome the Wings are rebuilding.
If that 21 year old dude already had a top 10 center, added another in free agency, and was poised to move from playoff participant to playoff contender...absolutely.

Age has zero importance to my desire for a decision maker. I want to know about the plan going forward, and how they intend to execute that plan. If Ken Holland suddenly came out and said the following:

"I know it had been all about the playoff streak before, and that some fans have been antsy for a more aggressive rebuild. And I admit that, even with the directives we've had as an organization, I haven't made all the right moves, maybe even being a little too patient in this first phase of the rebuild. But going forward, things are changing, because even though we have several good young players, overall our team has a lot of room for improvement, and that starts with me. It starts with another two or three drafts like the one we just had, going after skilled players that will continue to shape our next core, and it continues with evaluating the guys on our roster, to see where we can make a trade or otherwise shake things up, so that by the time that Larkin and our other best young players are in their prime, we've addressed all our needs enough that we're in great shape to go chase another Stanley Cup."

That's something I could agree with, even if I still can't stand the guy saying it. It's laying out priorities, without saying the team will be awful. It's making it clear that being in a hurry is not an option, and that just returning to a "competitive" team that might make the playoffs is not good enough.

It's bluntly stating that you want to try to return this franchise to being one of the best teams in the league, and that you're willing to make the tough choices to see that through.
 
  • Like
Reactions: njx9

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,736
14,704
Sweden
"I know it had been all about the playoff streak before, and that some fans have been antsy for a more aggressive rebuild. And I admit that, even with the directives we've had as an organization, I haven't made all the right moves, maybe even being a little too patient in this first phase of the rebuild. But going forward, things are changing, because even though we have several good young players, overall our team has a lot of room for improvement, and that starts with me. It starts with another two or three drafts like the one we just had, going after skilled players that will continue to shape our next core, and it continues with evaluating the guys on our roster, to see where we can make a trade or otherwise shake things up, so that by the time that Larkin and our other best young players are in their prime, we've addressed all our needs enough that we're in great shape to go chase another Stanley Cup."
He hasn't said it word for word and obviously won't. But the overall message is similar and has been for the past 1-2 years if not more. Just seems like people don't want to listen when he says "rebuild" but as soon as he drops the c-word (competitive) people freak out and think we're canceling the rebuild in order to chase a 1st round exit.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,683
If some 21 year old dude named Dyle Kubas took over as GM 2 years ago 99% of people would be celebrating how awesome the Wings are rebuilding.

We are getting kudos from fans of other teams for this draft, and any neutral draft ranking column I have seen gives us a grade between A- and A+.

So it's almost like when you do your job you get recognized. Keep drafting like this and all will be well, dude.
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
1,871
891
London
If that 21 year old dude already had a top 10 center, added another in free agency, and was poised to move from playoff participant to playoff contender...absolutely.

Age has zero importance to my desire for a decision maker. I want to know about the plan going forward, and how they intend to execute that plan. If Ken Holland suddenly came out and said the following:

"I know it had been all about the playoff streak before, and that some fans have been antsy for a more aggressive rebuild. And I admit that, even with the directives we've had as an organization, I haven't made all the right moves, maybe even being a little too patient in this first phase of the rebuild. But going forward, things are changing, because even though we have several good young players, overall our team has a lot of room for improvement, and that starts with me. It starts with another two or three drafts like the one we just had, going after skilled players that will continue to shape our next core, and it continues with evaluating the guys on our roster, to see where we can make a trade or otherwise shake things up, so that by the time that Larkin and our other best young players are in their prime, we've addressed all our needs enough that we're in great shape to go chase another Stanley Cup."

That's something I could agree with, even if I still can't stand the guy saying it. It's laying out priorities, without saying the team will be awful. It's making it clear that being in a hurry is not an option, and that just returning to a "competitive" team that might make the playoffs is not good enough.

It's bluntly stating that you want to try to return this franchise to being one of the best teams in the league, and that you're willing to make the tough choices to see that through.

The very fact you say that you "still can't stand the guy saying it " - kind of undermines your point, particularly as, apart from a gratifying (for some) but totally unnecessary mea culpa, he is broadly saying or doing what you want.

He's previously admitted that they prioritised the streak despite not all fans agreeing. He's admitted (albeit begrudgingly!) that some moves made didn't work out and as such were mistakes. He's made it clear several times that missing the playoffs for a second successive year has increased the rebuilding focus as the degree to which they've missed suggests that it has to be more concerted rebuild then he had hoped.

He's said that the organisation wants to speed up the introduction of young players and that over-ripe is only a luxury available to those players who are projects. He's specifically talked about wanting to get 3 or 4 kids into the lineup full time over the course of this season.

He's traded players for picks and now not just UFA's. He's made roster moves to facilitate trading Howard & Nyquist at the next deadline, while ensuring we can trade 3 or 4 roster players at 2020 deadline by.

He's said half of what you want and his actions mostly reflect the rest, and clearly a shift in organisational priorities and yet you still want to throw the guy under a bus.

Sure, lots of questionable minor moves or non-moves at the back end of the streak, and clearly many of the higher picks under Jim Nill's watch were at best underwhelming and at worst really poor, and Holland has to take partial or full responsibility for these.

But I struggle to see anything that is so bad about the last 24 months, apart from some of the coaching decisions and some curious later round draft picks (the early rounds haven't been to everyone's taste, but no-one can make a judgment call on those prospects still in line to make the NHL...yet).
 

lomekian

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
1,871
891
London
And if not I'm sure they will still be defended with the same fervent religious zeal.
Not sure some fans saying a move is 'good', 'understandable under the circumstances" or "not bad" or "Ive no problem with this" etc counts as religious zeal, and those are about as eulogistic as any positive comments have got beyond this years draft
 

Syckle78

Registered User
Nov 5, 2011
14,585
7,824
Redford, MI
Not sure some fans saying a move is 'good', 'understandable under the circumstances" or "not bad" or "Ive no problem with this" etc counts as religious zeal, and those are about as eulogistic as any positive comments have got beyond this years draft
Sure. That's the ongoing theme of this board the last few years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChelisChiliBar

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,736
14,704
Sweden
The very fact you say that you "still can't stand the guy saying it " - kind of undermines your point, particularly as, apart from a gratifying (for some) but totally unnecessary mea culpa, he is broadly saying or doing what you want.

He's previously admitted that they prioritised the streak despite not all fans agreeing. He's admitted (albeit begrudgingly!) that some moves made didn't work out and as such were mistakes. He's made it clear several times that missing the playoffs for a second successive year has increased the rebuilding focus as the degree to which they've missed suggests that it has to be more concerted rebuild then he had hoped.

He's said that the organisation wants to speed up the introduction of young players and that over-ripe is only a luxury available to those players who are projects. He's specifically talked about wanting to get 3 or 4 kids into the lineup full time over the course of this season.

He's traded players for picks and now not just UFA's. He's made roster moves to facilitate trading Howard & Nyquist at the next deadline, while ensuring we can trade 3 or 4 roster players at 2020 deadline by.

He's said half of what you want and his actions mostly reflect the rest, and clearly a shift in organisational priorities and yet you still want to throw the guy under a bus.

Sure, lots of questionable minor moves or non-moves at the back end of the streak, and clearly many of the higher picks under Jim Nill's watch were at best underwhelming and at worst really poor, and Holland has to take partial or full responsibility for these.

But I struggle to see anything that is so bad about the last 24 months, apart from some of the coaching decisions and some curious later round draft picks (the early rounds haven't been to everyone's taste, but no-one can make a judgment call on those prospects still in line to make the NHL...yet).
HSJ, is that you?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->