When hockey fights were actual fights....

[ChuckLefley]

Wait a little more and read what you wrote before clicking on "Post Reply"...

Oh, gosh, I made a typing error. Clearly everything I posted is wrong.

I feel bad for people who rely on typing errors to make themselves feel better.

 

[Big Phil]

Bravo !

"Shrinking violets", while still negative, is much less offensive than "pansy".

I partly agree with you, the pendulum has gone from an extreme to the other.

Update: Lions 76 Christians 1.

That "1" is a lion that died of acute indigestion.

It has become TOO over-analyzed. Too many camera angles, too many people with influence and worse yet you have former players such as Dryden and Lindros coming out in recent weeks calling for the end of bodychecking in hockey. This is not a joke. Eric Lindros, who is the cause of his own brains getting scrambled because he never kept his head up wants hitting out of the game. Don't laugh, these are former players and current HHOFers. At one point do we even recognize hockey anymore?

Yes, a homophobic figure of speech, but you knew that.

Nobody cares what you are sensitive about Chuck. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

That’s great but it’s just your way of avoiding my question. You lied, you got called on it and now you aren’t man enough to admit it and apologize. I guess I could have expected that from someone who makes homophobic comments and than tries to whitewash them.

Somehow a second post dimished any respect I had for you even further. Enjoy touting the cement head Hockey days, I’ll bet you still tell people the 8-track is the best form of music

This is a very extreme post. So..............you come on a hockey board, actually a "Hockey Fights" board, and tout that people who like fighting in hockey are "cement heads" and that they probably think the 8-track is the best form of music? Huh? Do you even know what board you are on Chuck? This is a hockey fights board and you can't understand why people like fights? Why did you decide to love a game that had fighting in the first place?

Also, what am I supposed to apologize for? If anything I doubled down on what I said and mentioned that the sports media has played a hand in hockey losing its passion. That our sport lacks a backbone by not telling these people to take a hike and leave the game alone. Yes the sports media has gotten soft and wimpy and doesn't represent the fans anymore.

 

[Big Phil]

That's how I see it too.

I honestly could care less about the 'staged' fights between the enforcers, but really enjoy the heat of the moment fights between 2 teams that have it out for each other.

Except that's dying a slow death...............the "two teams having it out for each other" thing. I don't know how long you've watched hockey, but I dare anyone to say that rivalries weren't better 30-40 years ago. Heck, even 20. It is too sanitized now. Too much friendliness, maybe a lack of urgency to win that we didn't see in yesteryear. It has hurt the game.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Oh, gosh, I made a typing error. Clearly everything I posted is wrong.

I feel bad for people who rely on typing errors to make themselves feel better.

Where did I ever claim this.

This is a discussion board.

All I meant is that avoiding errors would most likely lead to a more worthwhile discussion.

PS: I'm mostly on your side of the fence. Not entirely, mind you, as the pendulum has swung too far.

 

[ChuckLefley]

Nobody cares what you are sensitive about Chuck. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.[/

No, you’re trying to make excuses as to why it’s ok for you to use a blatantly homophobic phrase. That’s called bigotry.

This is a very extreme post. So..............you come on a hockey board, actually a "Hockey Fights" board, and tout that people who like fighting in hockey are "cement heads" and that they probably think the 8-track is the best form of music? Huh? Do you even know what board you are on Chuck? This is a hockey fights board and you can't understand why people like fights? Why did you decide to love a game that had fighting in the first place?

More lies? Where did I say “people who like fighting are ‘cement heads?” Oh, wait, you won’t answer that question because you lie and than run away from your lies when you get called out.

It speaks volumes about you that you go on the attack using things you’ve made up.

Also, what am I supposed to apologize for? If anything I doubled down on what I said and mentioned that the sports media has played a hand in hockey losing its passion. That our sport lacks a backbone by not telling these people to take a hike and leave the game alone. Yes the sports media has gotten soft and wimpy and doesn't represent the fans anymore.

You should apologize for lying and for trying to excuse your homophobia, but, as you admit, you prefer to double down on it, rather than have the balls to admit you’re wrong and apologize. I take it back you aren’t a cement head, you’re a cave man stuck in the Stone Age. I’ll bet you expect your wife to be waiting at home in a dress with a martini when you get home from work...or else.

Run along Phil, you’re digging the hole desperate and deeper.

 

[ChuckLefley]

My responses are in the quote because I accidentally deleted part of the closing quote. I make mistakes and am willing to admit it, not make excuses. Little Phil could learn a thing or two from me.

 

[Newsworthy]

See my comments about why come to the fight forum and preach? Go get a Banana
daiquiri when the fights start and leave people who still like real hockey alone.

I'm not preaching about anything. I'm just freely voicing my opinion. I happen to prefer hockey without fighting.

 

[Newsworthy]

I am soooooooo sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities but you still didn't answer the question. If fights scare or offend you so much why post in the fights forum? Shouldn't you be in analytics or the SEL forums? Or are you a hockey missionary, sent to save the unwashed masses from a part of hockey they enjoy, a saviour sent from Bettman and Branch to help us understand the error of our ways with your superior understanding of hockey and life? If so I apologize for the misunderstanding and understanding your mission will respect your views on fighting. If not why still so obsessed with something that so offends you?

Thing is European hockey leagues like the KHL were always a finesse league.
The NHL is only one league worldwide.

 

[heretik27]

I liked when the fights were genuine. Few years back we used to watch Thorburn on the Jets try and justify his presence by fighting other bums like Cody McLeod. Everyone knew it was coming, there was no bad blood or anything in the games to really instigate it, and it often ruined whatever momentum one team had over another. Just a grade A shit show. They probably text each other before and after the game giving each other virtual high fives to feel better about how stupid they looked. Nah, give me the scraps like Wheeler vs Malkin where a questionable hit leads to two stars dropping the gloves to sort out their differences in the next game. Malkin took his ass whooping and they went back to playing hockey. Jamie Benn vs Iginla in response to Giordano getting trucked was another great tussle. Enforcers are being phased out and that's good, because you don't need those talentless meatheads in the league. They don't prevent dirty hits, and often are the one's throwing them. Get all those bums outta here. I'm not really sure what these guys have been arguing about for the last two pages, the semantics of choice word usage to describe what one believes is what's become a wimp infested league? Did I get that right?

 

[Big Phil]

My responses are in the quote because I accidentally deleted part of the closing quote. I make mistakes and am willing to admit it, not make excuses. Little Phil could learn a thing or two from me.

My goodness you're sensitive Chuck. Why the heck do you come on a hockey fights board? It is a little against the grain.

Refering to the other post you had, yes, you did refer to people who like fights as "cement heads". More or less at least. You called the old days the "cement head hockey days". These are your direct quotes. Hockey was passionate then. We all knew it and the Broad Street Bullies in many ways were good for the game because the NHL had a villain. I myself, even as a Leaf fan, cheered for the Habs in 1976 to beat them, but the game is better when there is animosity and rivalries. Imagine that, a Leaf fan cheering for the Habs. I can't imagine any team being that hated that I'd cheer for the Habs over them.

Hockey was more of a hybrid of a game then. It had everything, but one thing it had more than anything was passion. This wasn't just the 1970s. In the 1990s there were still great rivalries and probably the defining moment when these things started to change and the sanitation of the NHL came in was after the lockout in 2004.

Look at the entertainment value of the game. Let's just look at international tournaments. Canada/Russia 1972. The two teams just hated each other. You could see it, feel it. Canada/Russia 1987. No, I don't remember a fight happening in that series, but that series still had everything, and more importantly there was still an "Us vs. them" mentality. 1996 with Canada/USA. Lots of fireworks. Many of these guys were teammates but you can still see they hated each other. Lots of gloves dropped, battles between Lindros and Tkachuk, etc. Skilled hockey though, lots of scoring chances, but tons of animosity.

Fast forward 20 years. The 2016 World Cup was the most passionless exhibit I have ever seen. Yeah, I'm glad we won, but the players didn't care. Blame the NHL for this format with the gimmick teams, but while we won it never looked like we WANTED to win. Where was the hitting? The passion? Gone. It was sad actually and if you want that type of hockey it is all yours but I know the type of hockey that is better and I do blame a more sanitized approach to hockey that has wilted the passion.

 

[ChuckLefley]

All that writing to make excuses and not step up to my questions.

The hole you’ve dug is impossible to get out of, so I won’t jump into it with you again,

 

[Big Phil]

I liked when the fights were genuine. Few years back we used to watch Thorburn on the Jets try and justify his presence by fighting other bums like Cody McLeod. Everyone knew it was coming, there was no bad blood or anything in the games to really instigate it, and it often ruined whatever momentum one team had over another. Just a grade A **** show. They probably text each other before and after the game giving each other virtual high fives to feel better about how stupid they looked. Nah, give me the scraps like Wheeler vs Malkin where a questionable hit leads to two stars dropping the gloves to sort out their differences in the next game. Malkin took his ass whooping and they went back to playing hockey. Jamie Benn vs Iginla in response to Giordano getting trucked was another great tussle. Enforcers are being phased out and that's good, because you don't need those talentless meatheads in the league. They don't prevent dirty hits, and often are the one's throwing them. Get all those bums outta here. I'm not really sure what these guys have been arguing about for the last two pages, the semantics of choice word usage to describe what one believes is what's become a wimp infested league? Did I get that right?

Hockey went through a brief time when a guy who couldn't skate backwards was in there just to fight. It is more in the minority than anything. The original 6 didn't have a player like this. There was too much competition for roster spots. Yet you did have to stand up to yourself.

Look at the toughest teams in the 1970s. Boston is split up into two different eras I think. The Pre-1975 Bruins and post 1975 Bruins. The first group had the likes of McKenzie, Sanderson, Cashman, even Ted Green. They could all play hockey. They were tough as nails. Green once finished 3rd in Norris voting. The first two are on Team Canada if they hadn't bolted to the WHA. The other Bruins era had Cashman again, O'Reilly, Jonathan and yes even John Weinsink could play hockey. Don Cherry has famously talked about the 1978 Bruins and the 11 20-goal men they had. Wensink was one of them. He had 28 that year. The Broad Street Bullies could play hockey. Not only did the Flyers have talent in Clarke, Barber, Leach and MacLeish but their fighters could play too. They were a hybrid of intimidation and skill. A lethal combo. Dave Schultz had 20 goals one year, a 21% shooting percentage. The Flyers got rid of him after 1976 and people forget he just sort of bounced around before being gone by 1980. Bob Kelly could score you 40 points, Don Saleski too. Moose Dupont scored a huge goal for the Flyers to tie it up in Game 2 in the 1974 finals with 30 seconds left. Schultz assisted on Clarke's winner.

So they contributed, yet when that ended, so did their time in Philly, and in the NHL. This has always happened. Bob Probert scored 29 goals in a season and held the single season playoff record for points by a Red Wing up until 1995. Bob Probert! If you liked watching Steve Yzerman glide around the NHL you can thank Probert for being one big scary dude for preventing any cheap shots. But the guy wasn't just a scarecrow either, he put up 40 points a year. Less with the Hawks in the dead puck era, but he played a regular shift. Scored the final goal at Maple Leaf Gardens.

Don Cherry himself never liked the type of player that was used 4-5 minutes a game and primarily used to fight. I didn't either. Rob Ray in Buffalo is a prime example of this. Not that he had a ton of skill, but there is a reason other guys like Brad May, even Tie Domi and others had more points than him. They had regular shifts. Domi wasn't a 50 goal scorer, but he could score goals in the double digits at least. He famously beat Mats Sundin in the fastest skater portion of the Leafs skills competition one year. I don't know why Brad May wasn't used better. He could score decent enough to contribute, but that move on Bourque in the 1993 playoffs wasn't an accident. May was a pretty good scorer in junior hockey.

So there have been the odd guys in NHL history that stuck around for too long or who weren't used properly. Guys like Peter Worrell, Enrico Ciccone, even, God rest his soul, Derek Boogaard among others. But look at the teams they were on. Were they successful? No. Similar to Ray in Buffalo. They hung around for too long. This was a brief time in NHL history. Almost every other era didn't have a player stick around for long if he couldn't play.

But if a guy can drop the mitts, keep people honest, score 20 goals a year, play a regular shift...............well, he always will have a place in the game. The Darren McCarty types. Milan Lucic. These guys you want on your team, always.

 

[Big Phil]

All that writing to make excuses and not step up to my questions.

The hole you’ve dug is impossible to get out of, so I won’t jump into it with you again,

I answered them Chuck. You just seem to prefer someone to grovel and apologize. The media and reporters/writers covering the game are of a different breed and aren't of yesteryear when the game was more entertaining. They are of the more shrinking violet types, more of a product of our society that we live in where we record everything on our phones and tattle-tale to everyone about it. They are over-analyzing everything, sort of what you seem to be doing on this thread, and I will say it again, it has contributed to a more sanitized version of the NHL. I "tripled down" on it. I can quadruple down if you want.

 

[Sheppy]

The league right now has next to no hatred. It sucks...

 

[Big Phil]

The league right now has next to no hatred. It sucks...

And let's remember, "hatred" in the sports environment is not the same as in the world. Sometimes it is as if people confuse the two. Maurice Richard and Ted Lindsay years after they were retired saw each other on vacation. Both noticed each other but they just glared at each other from a distance. Now THAT is an intense rivalry! But here is the thing, before the Rocket died he told Lindsay that he respected him and always did. There was just passion between these two, they wanted the same thing.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

The league right now has next to no hatred. It sucks...

And let's remember, "hatred" in the sports environment is not the same as in the world. Sometimes it is as if people confuse the two. Maurice Richard and Ted Lindsay years after they were retired saw each other on vacation. Both noticed each other but they just glared at each other from a distance. Now THAT is an intense rivalry! But here is the thing, before the Rocket died he told Lindsay that he respected him and always did. There was just passion between these two, they wanted the same thing.

You simply can't expect to have the same passion in a cap/free agency world.

It's difficult and possibly unwise to develop a so-called "hatred" for someone who could be your teammate or even linemate in a year or two.

 

[Big Phil]

You simply can't expect to have the same passion in a cap/free agency world.

It's difficult and possibly unwise to develop a so-called "hatred" for someone who could be your teammate or even linemate in a year or two.

It wasn't as if no one changed teams in the original 6. Not only that, but this passion was pretty prevalent for a long time. It started changing in the 1990s and by the time the lockout hit it was gone for good. It has made for less entertaining hockey. There was a buzz in the city when you knew you were playing a certain team.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

It wasn't as if no one changed teams in the original 6. Not only that, but this passion was pretty prevalent for a long time. It started changing in the 1990s and by the time the lockout hit it was gone for good. It has made for less entertaining hockey. There was a buzz in the city when you knew you were playing a certain team.

Nothing comparable to today.

Players changed teams because of a management decision.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Newsworthy]

The forum is "Hockey Fights".
It isn't "Fans of Hockey Fights" or "In Support of Hockey Fighting"
I would expect to have the majority of poster who support fighting here. But the minority should be able to freely have a voice also.

Fighting was a part of the game but a very small one. Peoples tastes may change as they age. I was once ok with fighting but now I feel different. I'm glad the game has changed and hope these pro leagues do more things for player safety reasons. Phasing out fighting was in the making long before all these medical concerns about concussions and such.

 

[ChuckLefley]

The forum is "Hockey Fights".
It isn't "Fans of Hockey Fights" or "In Support of Hockey Fighting"
I would expect to have the majority of poster who support fighting here. But the minority should be able to freely have a voice also.

Fighting was a part of the game but a very small one. Peoples tastes may change as they age. I was once ok with fighting but now I feel different. I'm glad the game has changed and hope these pro leagues do more things for player safety reasons. Phasing out fighting was in the making long before all these medical concerns about concussions and such.

Well said. I enjoy a good hockey fight, always have and even mail ordered brawl tapes, but I’m smart enough to realize the world is changing and that Hockey is changing. Unfortunately, some are stuck in the glory days of fighting in hockey...both in Hockey and in life.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Thing is European hockey leagues like the KHL were always a finesse league.
The NHL is only one league worldwide.

Always???



Vitas Chekov seems to be forgotten.

 

[Newsworthy]

My goodness you're sensitive Chuck. Why the heck do you come on a hockey fights board? It is a little against the grain.

Refering to the other post you had, yes, you did refer to people who like fights as "cement heads". More or less at least. You called the old days the "cement head hockey days". These are your direct quotes. Hockey was passionate then. We all knew it and the Broad Street Bullies in many ways were good for the game because the NHL had a villain. I myself, even as a Leaf fan, cheered for the Habs in 1976 to beat them, but the game is better when there is animosity and rivalries. Imagine that, a Leaf fan cheering for the Habs. I can't imagine any team being that hated that I'd cheer for the Habs over them.

Hockey was more of a hybrid of a game then. It had everything, but one thing it had more than anything was passion. This wasn't just the 1970s. In the 1990s there were still great rivalries and probably the defining moment when these things started to change and the sanitation of the NHL came in was after the lockout in 2004.

Look at the entertainment value of the game. Let's just look at international tournaments. Canada/Russia 1972. The two teams just hated each other. You could see it, feel it. Canada/Russia 1987. No, I don't remember a fight happening in that series, but that series still had everything, and more importantly there was still an "Us vs. them" mentality. 1996 with Canada/USA. Lots of fireworks. Many of these guys were teammates but you can still see they hated each other. Lots of gloves dropped, battles between Lindros and Tkachuk, etc. Skilled hockey though, lots of scoring chances, but tons of animosity.

Fast forward 20 years. The 2016 World Cup was the most passionless exhibit I have ever seen. Yeah, I'm glad we won, but the players didn't care. Blame the NHL for this format with the gimmick teams, but while we won it never looked like we WANTED to win. Where was the hitting? The passion? Gone. It was sad actually and if you want that type of hockey it is all yours but I know the type of hockey that is better and I do blame a more sanitized approach to hockey that has wilted the passion.

Sometimes I wonder if the game is passing me by or I'm just getting older and losing interest. The Wayne and Mario and early Lindros days were my favorite. Preferably 1990's when you had all that skill and toughness.
But the NHL cares about revenue and its a huge business and fighting doesnt fit that mold anymore.
The brand of hockey you prefer isn't coming back. And to blame this lack of passion on the NHL is disingenuous. The players have a passion to win not to fight. They are friends and today's player makes a lot of cash. If you want players to care more maybe stop watching pro leagues and start watching amateurs. That's one reason why I prefer NCAA basketball to the NBA.
The old NBA was better also. The old NFL was much better but I still watch the games and buy merchandise and tickets.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Fighting being big in hockey was only true for a brief blip of time. 1970's 80s and some of the 90s. There weren't many majors/game prior to expansion. It just happens that current Gen X posters would have grown up during the spike in hockey fights. Baby boomers would have seen both, and known that both realities existed. Millennials mostly know today's hockey but might have an inkling of the 90s style.

 

[FMichael]

Except that's dying a slow death...............the "two teams having it out for each other" thing. I don't know how long you've watched hockey, but I dare anyone to say that rivalries weren't better 30-40 years ago. Heck, even 20. It is too sanitized now. Too much friendliness, maybe a lack of urgency to win that we didn't see in yesteryear. It has hurt the game.

The rivalries of today are rather few, and far between (Montreal & Boston, Philly & Pitts, NYR & NYI, and maybe Detroit & Chicago), but I do agree - they're nowhere near what they were 20 plus years ago.

 

[Big Phil]

The rivalries of today are rather few, and far between (Montreal & Boston, Philly & Pitts, NYR & NYI, and maybe Detroit & Chicago), but I do agree - they're nowhere near what they were 20 plus years ago.

For sure, and I don't know why there would be any opposition to seeing intense rivalries make a comeback again. Hockey is better when this happens.

Sometimes I wonder if the game is passing me by or I'm just getting older and losing interest. The Wayne and Mario and early Lindros days were my favorite. Preferably 1990's when you had all that skill and toughness.
But the NHL cares about revenue and its a huge business and fighting doesnt fit that mold anymore.
The brand of hockey you prefer isn't coming back. And to blame this lack of passion on the NHL is disingenuous. The players have a passion to win not to fight. They are friends and today's player makes a lot of cash. If you want players to care more maybe stop watching pro leagues and start watching amateurs. That's one reason why I prefer NCAA basketball to the NBA.
The old NBA was better also. The old NFL was much better but I still watch the games and buy merchandise and tickets.

It isn't just fighting, although that is part of the huge drop in passion, but it is even fearing making a big hit. Would Scott Stevens trade in one of his Cup rings if he could take back the hit on Lindros? Not a chance. The game is always more entertaining when the players outwardly hate each other. Messier vs. Otto for example.............did they ever drop the gloves? Not that I recall, but they didn't have to either. Messier would bowl over his own grandmother to win. How many players have that passion today?

A sanitized game isn't a better game. People say "Well, society is changing", that's another way of saying society is becoming softer and more effeminate. That doesn't make a physical sport like hockey better, it just doesn't.