When Does the USA Surpass Canada as the #1 Hockey Country?

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Claypool_*

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I think people are forgetting how good a team Czechoslovakia would be today. :eek:
 

Oilers Chick

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Since when did this turn into a political thread? :dunno:

In reply to original question, which I believe was "when will the US surpass Canada in hockey as far as quantity and quality", I'd say not likely anytime soon.

Most of you here are either totally unaware or simply ignore how the development system has grown both in terms of numbers and geographically. Also, to base the success of hockey on population doesn't make much sense either.

So here are some things that'll shed some light on how hockey in the US (outside of the pro ranks) has grown.

1) Despite those who either refuse to believe it or simply don't know, players feeding into the various development programs such as the NTDP, USHL, etc. are NOT just from Minnesota, Massachusetts, Michigan or any other "cold weather" state anymore. Nowadays, there are increasingly growing numbers of players coming from such non-traditional "hockey hot bed" states like California, Texas, Arizona and yes, even Florida.

2) The development programs have gotten increasingly better over the years. Just look at a league such as the USHL and the growing amount of talent coming into that league. Granted, some players in the USHL are non-Americans but the majority are Americans. The NTDP, with its share of "politics" (those who follow the USNTDP closely know what I'm talking about here) still continues to produce great numbers of outstanding players. Even the Minnesota HS and NE Prep leagues have grown and gotten better.

I don't think that the US will likely ever surpass Canada as far as popularity but producing and developing top-notch talent might be a different story down the road.
 

willie

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nomorekids said:
I see what you're saying...but for his one comment there...

there've been numerous "the day after never," "when hell freezes over" posts from canadian fans.

Oh my comment regarding 'tooling the thread' up wasn't directed specifically at that post - which was toolish in nature :) - but rather the whole "discussion" on US/Canada taxes, standard of living etc.

Comments like "hell freezes over" from Canadians and "outratgeous costs" from Americans are tolerable, even if they add nothing. But the thread turned into something wholly inconsequential to the issue at hand.
 

Slats432

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I scouted some players in Kansas City playing Midget Majors a week after watching a Midget AA game in Edmonton. The kids in KC were far superior.

That should tell you something. The programs and organization of USA hockey are catching up...and it would be folly to think that the gap isn't closing.
 

willie

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Oilers Chick said:
Since when did this turn into a political thread? :dunno:

Unfortunately it was probably destined for that route. But thanks for attempting to steer it back. :)

1) Despite those who either refuse to believe it or simply don't know, players feeding into the various development programs such as the NTDP, USHL, etc. are NOT just from Minnesota, Massachusetts, Michigan or any other "cold weather" state anymore. Nowadays, there are increasingly growing numbers of players coming from such non-traditional "hockey hot bed" states like California, Texas, Arizona and yes, even Florida.

That is true. But it still is a small proportion of the hockey playing population. And a lot of these kids wind up moving to northern states (sometimes even Canada) - even at pre-junior ages - as there isn't the necessary minor hockey development system in place to breed quality hockey players with any consistency. And I have serious reservations whether there ever will be.

2) The development programs have gotten increasingly better over the years. Just look at a league such as the USHL and the growing amount of talent coming into that league.

This I completely agree with. The USHL is getting better and better and - soon enough - will be the rough equivalent of the CHL in calibre. But that basically shows a ratio of roughly 3:1 in terms of how many major junior calibre players Canada produces versus the United States. The gap has lessened - to be sure - but I don't think we'll ever see a full convergence.
 

MN_Gopher

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The gap for the US on Canada in hockey is closing about as much as the rest of the world is closing in on the US in Basketball. There are Dirks, Yaos and Nashs and a few more. But the gap is much wider than those three or any resent uprising can close. If the USA truly closes the gap it will be 10-15 years from now not any time soon.
 

BigE

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Guy Legend said:
The day will come where America will become the number one producer of hockey talent.

Right now, the country is largely untapped. In non-traditional markets in the south, hockey has really sprung up as a game people play now. While expansion is bad in the short run in terms of talent in the league, it will end up doing the opposite. The league will benefit as a whole, something we can all appreciate.

The number of Americans in each draft has been rising (including the number of quality players). The 2006 draft will continue that trend. :clap:

Your last point can largely be attributed to the new European eligibility rule. Canadian numbers this past draft increased as well.

When you look at it, Canada still produces 3x the number of quality (in addition to quantity) players that other countries do. The US isn't even 3rd for player production, even though the prospect crop they have now could be seen as encouraging.

The US has a better chance at becoming the number one football (soccer) nation in the world, as opposed to the number one hockey nation.

For every Kessel there is a Crosby, Suter a Phaneuf, Mueller a Staal, etc. and that isn't likely to change.
 

willie

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BigE said:
The US has a better chance at becoming the number one football (soccer) nation in the world, as opposed to the number one hockey nation.

Nah. There are simply too many countries who are too good at football. But the United States is getting better and better at football and - much to the chagrin of South Americans & Europeans - will unquestionably become a top-10 power in the future and a threat to win just about any World Cup. I'd say it's only a matter of time before the Americans do win the World Cup...

Heck, despite our atrocious state right now, I think Canada can even start making World Cups with some consistency in the foreseeable future. We've just got to find a way to keep our talent like Hargreaves and de Guzman from playing elsewhere internationally.

Given how few nations play hockey competitively, it'd be a far more reasonable expectation that they'd become first in hockey before football. But - frankly - I don't think they'll achieve either.
 

Took a pill in Sbisa

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uuh... ya
k it's like this

when an American coach win thw Stanley Cup, like....50 times in a row, and when an American captain's the Stanley Cup winning team like..... just as many times.. And when USA wins the Olympic Gold, men and women, World Junior Championships, and the World Cup, as well as takes over the league majority for players' country of origin, and produces the 5 players of all-time, then, well, I guess we'll have a discussion about it..
 

vipergtsr404

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futurcorerock said:
Once they figure out a way to reduce the outragteous costs of playing hockey, the USA would own Canada like it does in Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc.


Hey if a canadian can invent the sport of basketball then Americans can perfect it well at least once in NBA history we can get a canadian kid to win the MVP.

As far as hockey goes Canada will hopefully always be king of that castle. Hell if we aren't then the damn country will have no pride left at all :help:

well actually we'll always have BEER !!!
 

Tucker316*

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DownFromNJ said:
It'll happen sooner than people expect. Bobby Ryan is a great example. A #2 overall pick coming not out of New England or Minnesota... but out of New Jersey!.

New Jersey is a great example. As little as ten years ago, we had literally one third the ice rinks we do now. Few public schools had ice hockey teams. Today? Every public school in my home county has one. Two new rinks opened last year. The place is becoming a hockey loaded area.


Ten years from now, we'll be seeing good NHL hockey players being drafted out of Florida, California, and other places.


The US is ten times the size of Canada. It's only a matter of time.

You mean the US is ten times the population size of Canada.
As a country, Canada is obviously larger.


They may, they may not pas us. The thing is, even if they start developing more quality players, how does this stop us from doing the same? It wont, and that is all that matters peeps.
 

therealdeal

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I think people are over estimating the amount of American juniour talent.

What exactly have they done to raise these questions? They won 1 juniour gold medal by a lucky bounce? They are the favorites this year when 2 of Canada's best players aren't going to be playing because they're busy with the NHL and have moved on from the Junior ranks?

Canada has medaled in the last 7 straight WJC, and the US has what in those 7 years, a gold and maybe a bronze? And what did they do in the 90's when Canada won 5 straight. And aside from Kessel, what do they have? Is there any single American player playing in the NHL right now that is under 20 years old? How many are there under 22 years old that are at the top of the scoring race of their team?

If the US does surpass Canada, it won't be within the forseeable future, because Canada still produces far more top level talent than the US. Period.
 

roryb

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Hockey is such an ingrained sport in Canada, everyone knows that. It is the sport of choice for the majority of our athletes. The argument I would make is that our TOP atheletes play hockey for the most part, because it is by far the most popular and common sport.

Now, we do play other sports obviously...but the interest level is very thin compared to hockey.

In the U.S. you have basketball, football, baseball etc. that their athletes go to. Im saying that we have our top top athletes playing hockey, while the U.S. is sort of watered down by other sports.
 

Oilers Chick

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therealdeal said:
They won 1 juniour gold medal by a lucky bounce? They are the favorites this year when 2 of Canada's best players aren't going to be playing because they're busy with the NHL and have moved on from the Junior ranks?

Yeah, Team USA was so bad :rolleyes:

I suppose Team USA also just got lucky beating Russia, Sweden and Finland on their way to the gold medal game too, right?

If Team Canada is so great, then why are you making up excuses? Just curious.

Canada has medaled in the last 7 straight WJC, and the US has what in those 7 years, a gold and maybe a bronze? And what did they do in the 90's when Canada won 5 straight. And aside from Kessel, what do they have? Is there any single American player playing in the NHL right now that is under 20 years old? How many are there under 22 years old that are at the top of the scoring race of their team?

Since 1977, USA has medaled four times in the U-20 WJC . The Americans won the bronze in 1986 and again in 1992. They won the silver in 1997 and the gold in 2004.

If you want to start bringing up international tournaments, why not bring up the Olympics, the U-18s, the U-17s and all of the other international tournaments that the US has been involved in. You can get a better look at how the sport (and talent level) has grown here in the US just in the last 5-7 years alone.

In the 1990s Team USA did not have the depth (and to some extent, level) of talent that they enjoy right now. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.

Ryan Suter is the only 20 year old American that I can think of at the moment currently playing in the NHL. I'd venture to say that Jack Johnson probably would be too had he opted to sign with Carolina instead of attending Michigan.

If the US does surpass Canada, it won't be within the forseeable future, because Canada still produces far more top level talent than the US. Period.

Actually I partially agree with you here. I don't foresee it happening anytime soon as well, but I won't say that it'll never happen, either.
 

therealdeal

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Oilers Chick said:
Yeah, Team USA was so bad :rolleyes:

I suppose Team USA also just got lucky beating Russia, Sweden and Finland on their way to the gold medal game too, right?

If Team Canada is so great, then why are you making up excuses? Just curious.

Since 1977, USA has medaled four times in the U-20 WJC . The Americans won the bronze in 1986 and again in 1992. They won the silver in 1997 and the gold in 2004.

If you want to start bringing up international tournaments, why not bring up the Olympics, the U-18s, the U-17s and all of the other international tournaments that the US has been involved in. You can get a better look at how the sport (and talent level) has grown here in the US just in the last 5-7 years alone.

I never said that the USA was bad, they were definetly a good team that year, but the game was won on a lucky bounce, there is no argument there, that is a fact.

Has the talent level grown all that much, or has is this just happens to be a good batch? At the moment thats what it would appear to be, the US goes in spurts.
 

Slitty

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I think its all in the system. Wasn't hockey introduced to the Soviet Union and taught in PhyzEd colleges and the in a few years came the Olympic gold medals?
 

Claypool_*

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therealdeal said:
What exactly have they done to raise these questions?


probably the amount of American players increasing in the draft and also going very high.
 

Claypool_*

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therealdeal said:
I never said that the USA was bad, they were definetly a good team that year, but the game was won on a lucky bounce, there is no argument there, that is a fact.

You're right, the US should have been good sports and done something to stop Canada from scoring on themselves.
 

Geese_Howard*

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usa will never be better then canada because for the simple reason... they dont pay enough attention to hockey, there programs are garbage compared to the rest of the world, not just canada, need proof? a USA hockey commitee person went up to mike madano, asked who he was and if he ever played for the team.

that was said on the hot stove....

USA will never surpass Canada, and you can count on that.
 

Squiddy*

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King Henry I said:
US hockey will surpass Canada when the government builds hockey rinks in urban areas across the country. Right now in the US hockey is more of a suburban sport or a sport for more priveledged kids--inner city kids play football, basketball or baseball more often than not because those sports are cheaper or more accessible.

Until that happens Canada will be the world's #1 hockey country, and I suspect that it will never change.

I know there is atleast 5 rinks here in Houston and we don't even have an nhl team... :dunno:
 

futurcorerock

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willie said:
Right. The 'outragteous' cost of hockey is the sole reason for Canadian preeminence in hockey. :sarcasm:

And way to tool this thread up guys. :clap: We were having a nice civil discusion and - of course - it had to degenerate into a senseless, rhetoric-filled political spat. :p:

Might as well close it or move it.
Uhh, no.

Hockey is a middle-upper class sport. Not everyone can afford the 650+ dollars worth of equipment necessary to play.

Baskeball has shoes and shorts, Baseball has a ball and bat, Football has (in some cases) just the ball.

Hockey has the stick, the puck, the skates, the knee pads, the shorts, the socks, the knee guards, the elbow pads, the chest protector, the helmet, and skating rink costs.

Before you write off the discussion, why don't you actually contribute something to it? Otherwise, refrain from running your post count up
 

Squiddy*

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Geese_Howard said:
usa will never be better then canada because for the simple reason... they dont pay enough attention to hockey, there programs are garbage compared to the rest of the world, not just canada, need proof? a USA hockey commitee person went up to mike madano, asked who he was and if he ever played for the team.

that was said on the hot stove....

USA will never surpass Canada, and you can count on that.

Oh really? So explain why the US world junior team is the favourites to win this year?
 
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