When does Howe make it a Big Four?

[daver]

Imagine Howe started his career after Wayne, Orr and Mario and it played out exactly how it did (e.g. in the O6). At what point does he make the Big 3, the Big 4?

After his four year peak?

After his 1955 playoff run and 4th Cup?

After his 6th Art Ross?

After his 20th year of a Top 5 scoring finish?

Never?

I could see him getting the Lindros level of hype. An offensively gifted player that brought a lot more than just offense to the game.

Click to read more...

 

[BenchBrawl]

After his four consecutive Art Rosses won by great margins, he would become a prime candidate assuming he keeps going.When he eventually does, he gets in.

I'd say after the 1963 equivalent year (6th Ross and Hart), he's in for sure.But he might make it before.

 

[MXD]

...At the moment his fanbase pushes really hard for him to actually make it a Big-2.

 

[BadgerBruce]

After his four consecutive Art Rosses won by great margins, he would become a prime candidate assuming he keeps going.When he eventually does, he gets in.

I'd say after the 1963 equivalent year (6th Ross and Hart), he's in for sure.But he might make it before.

I’d agree. It’s early in the 63-64 season that Howe passes Richard as the NHL all-time leading scorer, which newspaper reports almost universally agree “seals the deal.”

Mind blowing to realize that he scored another 430 regular season goals (and 100+ playoff points) as a pro in the NHL/WHA after that historic 545th marker. One could argue that he’s a Hall of Fame player based solely on what he accomplished after breaking the Rocket’s all-time record.

Also, an extremely small number of players have won multiple Smythes (Roy, Gretzky, Orr, Parent, Lemieux, Crosby — am I missing anyone?). So how many retro Smythes does Howe get? Depends on which list you look at, but the consensus seems to be 2-3 (I’ve seen a few lists that give him 4). Given that the other members of the Big 4 all have 2 Smythes and playoff excellence plays a significant role in player legacy, I think this matters. Maybe Hockey Outsider could provide a best guess number of Retro-Smythes for Howe?

 

[rfournier103]

Interesting question.

Was Howe regarded as the GOAT until Orr came along? There was Howe and the others joined him on that level?

 

[Pominville Knows]

Interesting question.

Was Howe regarded as the GOAT until Orr came along? There was Howe and the others joined him on that level?

No doubt. He had gone head to head with Maurice Richard and clearly outshined him.
Maybe in Montreal someone claimed otherwise, due to discrimination or something, and Cup counting.
However, this is also becouse of Howe's longivety and perhaps also to some extent the shorter seasons during Richard's earlier career which led to a lower raw point total for him then it otherwise would have been.
Perhaps Richard could even be tried to be pushed for a little like someone do Lemieux vs Gretzky, although i don't think Richard's best was as close to Howe's as in the other comparison. Including his playoff goal scoring.

 

[The Panther]

With the Howe vs. Richard thing, it needs to be remembered that Richard became a star forward in 1943-44, and Gordie Howe became a star forward in probably 1949-50, six years later. Howe was very much still at his peak approaching the mid-1950s when Richard (though still amazing, esp. in playoffs) was 'old' by contemporary standards and was passing his prime. So they're not exactly head-to-head kind of careers. (This is, of course, easy to forget because Howe finished playing professionally 21 years after Richard did!)

At the end of the day, Rocket Richard was considered the 1st or 2nd-best right-wing in pro-hockey for 14 consecutive seasons, and being a lot better even than that in the playoffs.

Let's show some respect!!

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Also, an extremely small number of players have won multiple Smythes (Roy, Gretzky, Orr, Parent, Lemieux, Crosby — am I missing anyone?). So how many retro Smythes does Howe get? Depends on which list you look at, but the consensus seems to be 2-3 (I’ve seen a few lists that give him 4). Given that the other members of the Big 4 all have 2 Smythes and playoff excellence plays a significant role in player legacy, I think this matters. Maybe Hockey Outsider could provide a best guess number of Retro-Smythes for Howe?

It's possible he only wins one. 1955 is obvious - Detroit wins the Cup, and he leads the playoffs in goals and points (setting the all-time record in the latter category).

1949 - probably not. Howe leads the playoffs in goals and points as a 20 year old, but Detroit gets swept in the SC Finals. Two-way force Ted Kennedy likely gets it for the dominant Leafs.

1952 - probably not. In this incredibly low-scoring season, Howe ties for the playoff lead in scoring (but it's an unimpressive total, and it's a four-way tie for first). You'd have to think Sawchuk (5 goals against in a perfect eight game sweep) wins it, especially since star defenseman Red Kelly misses a few games.

1954 - possibly. Canadiens dominate the scoring, but Howe is the highest-scoring non Hab. In game 7 of the first round, Howe scores two goals and assists on the OT winner. But his numbers are unimpressive in the SCF.

1961 - probably not. Howe, in a losing cause, ties for the playoff scoring lead with Pierre Pilote. You'd have to think Pilote (as a defenseman on the winning team) gets the Smythe. (Howe he lead the SC Finals in scoring - but Pilote tied him there as well).

1963 - probably not. Howe leads the playoffs in scoring in a losing cause. He has a decent argument because he leads the SCF in scoring (again). But I suspect Bower or (less deservedly) Keon would have gotten it.

1964 - possibly. This is the 4th time in his career he leads the playoffs in scoring in a losing cause (and the 3rd time he leads the SC Finals in scoring in a losing cause - in a span of four years!) He has a good chance here because it's a close finals series (7 games) and no obvious candidate.

It's possible that Howe retires with a single Conn Smythe (had it existed during his career). But it's also possibly he wins two or three. He almost certainly takes the trophy in 1955, and then there's a bunch of close calls where he's top two or three. The biggest thing that hurts him is four of the six times he led the playoffs in scoring were in losing causes - which makes it an uphill battle.

 

[DannyGallivan]

After his four consecutive Art Rosses won by great margins, he would become a prime candidate assuming he keeps going.When he eventually does, he gets in.

I'd say after the 1963 equivalent year (6th Ross and Hart), he's in for sure.But he might make it before.

This.

 

[JackSlater]

After his four consecutive Art Rosses won by great margins, he would become a prime candidate assuming he keeps going.When he eventually does, he gets in.

I'd say after the 1963 equivalent year (6th Ross and Hart), he's in for sure.But he might make it before.

I also think that's pretty much it.

 

[Sentinel]

I agree with all of the above. The analog of 1963 is when he makes it.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I agree with all of the above. The analog of 1963 is when he makes it.

yup, I agree that it's 1963.

that gives him:

5x Rocket
6x Ross
6x Hart
8x AS-1
6x AS-2
3x Cup
1-3x Smythe (retro)

 

[BenchBrawl]

...At the moment his fanbase pushes really hard for him to actually make it a Big-2.

I have Gordie Howe #1 all-time.Some days.Like today.

 

[VanIslander]

By 1964, the year after his sixth Hart, when the 35 year old led the NHL playoffs in scoring for a third consecutive time in the 1960's on another Stanley Cup Finals run against another dynasty club, his four cups having come more than a decade prior.

 

[The Panther]

Actually, it's an interesting question to ask about each of the so-called Big Four.

Orr had broken all D-man scoring marks in his third season, and utterly destroyed them all and burnt them to a crisp in his fourth year... when he also won the Cup. That fourth season saw him win the Norris (third in a row), Hart, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe. He was probably even more dominant the next regular season (1970-71) -- the Bruins' best during his era. So, you could argue that he didn't really do anything 'new' after about 1970 or 1971; he just maintained that level until 1975 when his knees gave out (almost) for good.

Gretzky broke all-time single-season scoring records in his 2nd season (assists, points), and then had a dominating playoff mini-run with lowly Edmonton. The team became good in his third year, and he (further) exploded to 92 goals and 212 points -- previously unfathomable totals. He essentially maintained this level for about five more years after that, winning the Cup in his fifth season. There were people calling him the greatest-ever player by the time he was 21, 22.

Mario is a little different because he was initially in Gretzky's shadow for four or five years, and his team had fairly incompetent management until the dawn of the '90s. For him, winning the Cup in '91 seemed a really key factor in his potentially being elevated to 'big 4'-type status, as many thought he wasn't the type of player to improve his team before that.


Anyway, with Howe, I tend to agree it would be around 1963 when he became a legend in his own time.

Incidentally, wasn't that the year his parents were flown in from Saskatoon and saw him play an NHL game for the very first time?

 

[JackSlater]

I read these two days ago actually. This is an article from Macleans, 1963, that describes Howe as a hero in his own time and the greatest player hockey has ever seen:

Gordie Howe, hero. A Peter Gzowski report: Dec. 14, 1963 - Macleans.ca

I also enjoyed this quote from Keon after the 1963 finals: "There are four strong teams in this league and two weak ones. The weak ones are Boston and New York and the strong ones are Toronto, Chicago, Montreal and Gordie Howe.”

The article also alludes to Bobby Hull showing some ambidexterity, in terms of shooting both ways, which surprised me. Has anyone heard that claim before?

This article was also enjoyable in terms of showing Howe's legendary status:

From the archives: Gordie's return to Saskatoon in 1966

His city, and not really a minor one in Canada, had a day just for Howe in which 2/3 of the city showed up to watch him in a parade. He went on to play 12 additional professional seasons.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Howe set the benchmark..then Gretzky joined him. In my mind those were the big two before there was a big four.

 

[Theokritos]

Howe set the benchmark..then Gretzky joined him. In my mind those were the big two before there was a big four.

Gretzky was in the big two and Orr only joined the club later?

 

[Big Phil]

After 1955 when he already has 4 Art Rosses to his name, some by big margins, and 4 Cups to his name, I think then is when he gets in the conversation. Keep in mind, in 1998 when THN did that top 100 players list Mario was #4. Would he still have been #4 had he retired in 1993? Probably. 1996 and 1997 were just bonuses even though they were great seasons. But I think he sealed it by 1993. Howe would be the same. He's 27 in 1955, right at the peak of his career. He'd have done more than anyone else other than those 4 at that time (had he started his career after them). We'd be talking about him, at age 27, better than we would have Ovechkin or Crosby even. So yeah, he's in.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Gretzky was in the big two and Orr only joined the club later?

Orr played before Gretzky of course, but he's a D-man. When I first got into hockey, I learned that Gretzky is the greatest and Howe was the greatest before him..Orr was simply seen as the greatest D-man.

I would now say that Orr was the best D-man by such a margin that it's legitimate to include him in the "Big Four", but a part of me will always think that your best, most talented player should probably be a forward and that's probably why most top 10, top 20, top 100 lists are quite forward-heavy unless one specifically tries to get positional balance.

 

[tmmr]

The article also alludes to Bobby Hull showing some ambidexterity, in terms of shooting both ways, which surprised me. Has anyone heard that claim before?

T

Howe's ability (in the straight stick era) to switch and shoot left was well-known. I've never heard it said about Hull other than this article, and I don't think it's accurate. I watched Hull in hundreds of games and never saw it. Hull did have a good backhand but that went away when he used the banana blade.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Howe's ability (in the straight stick era) to switch and shoot left was well-known. I've never heard it said about Hull other than this article, and I don't think it's accurate. I watched Hull in hundreds of games and never saw it. Hull did have a good backhand but that went away when he used the banana blade.

With a curved stick, a backhand attempt would be interesting.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Orr played before Gretzky of course, but he's a D-man. When I first got into hockey, I learned that Gretzky is the greatest and Howe was the greatest before him..Orr was simply seen as the greatest D-man.

I would now say that Orr was the best D-man by such a margin that it's legitimate to include him in the "Big Four", but a part of me will always think that your best, most talented player should probably be a forward and that's probably why most top 10, top 20, top 100 lists are quite forward-heavy unless one specifically tries to get positional balance.

Yup. Whether it’s right or wrong growing up playing hockey or any sport in general. The best we’re always put on forward/attack and the others would be spot on D lol.

 

[Michael Farkas]

At mid-level or higher coaching, it's the opposite...best players play defense where positions are still malleable...

Recreationally, you'll sometimes see the inverse, of course...

 

[Midnight Judges]

Howe makes it a big four after his 4th MVP.

After his 6th he makes it a big 2 and then leaves Orr and Lemieux in his dust after that.