When Did You Start To Notice A Slip In Gretzky's Game

[Supreme King]

In 1980-81 Gretzky breaks two of hockey's most hallowed records, Phil Esposito's record for most points (152) and Bobby Orr's record for assists (102) with 55 goals and 109 assists for 164 points. In the following 5 years, Gretzky reaches a different stratosphere that will likely never be reached again, when reaches point totals of 212, 196, 205, 208 and 215.

After the 85-86 season, Gretzky drops to 183 points in '87 and 149 points in '88 (in only 64 games, it's very likely he would of ended up with 180+ points). Could you notice a slip in his game after 1985-86?

Or was it when he went to the Kings in '88-89? His first season as a King he records 54 goals and 114 assists for 168 points in 78 games. The following season sees a big drop off, 40 goals and 102 assists for 142 points, then in 90-91 a sort of rebound with 41 goals and a 122 points for 163 points.

Obviously stats, numbers don't tell the entire story so when did you start to see a drop-off from in Gretzky where you said to yourself this isn't the same unbelievable player I watched from 1982-87ish?

Click to read more...

 

[BraveCanadian]

The most noticeable drop, imo, was after September 15 1991.

 

[Thenameless]

The initial drop after the 85-86 season was Gretzky becoming a better all-around player. Cups seemed easy until they got blindsided by the Flames.

After that, he concentrated more on winning, and less on pure point accumulation.

The true drop, as BraveCanadian says, happens after 1991 and The Hit.

 

[blogofmike]

The most noticeable drop, imo, was after September 15 1991.

That seems right.

Season | Age | Tm | GP | G | A | PTS | +/- | EV | EV | ESP | ESP Rank | ESG/80 | ESA/80 | ESP/80
1979-80 | 19 | EDM | 79 | 51 | 86 | 137 | 15 | 37 | 62 | 99 | 1 | 37.47 | 62.78 | 100.25
1980-81 | 20 | EDM | 80 | 55 | 109 | 164 | 41 | 36 | 69 | 105 | 1 | 36.00 | 69.00 | 105.00
1981-82 | 21 | EDM | 80 | 92 | 120 | 212 | 81 | 68 | 79 | 147 | 1 | 68.00 | 79.00 | 147.00
1982-83 | 22 | EDM | 80 | 71 | 125 | 196 | 60 | 47 | 85 | 132 | 1 | 47.00 | 85.00 | 132.00
1983-84 | 23 | EDM | 74 | 87 | 118 | 205 | 76 | 55 | 82 | 137 | 1 | 59.46 | 88.65 | 148.11
1984-85 | 24 | EDM | 80 | 73 | 135 | 208 | 98 | 54 | 93 | 147 | 1 | 54.00 | 93.00 | 147.00
1985-86 | 25 | EDM | 80 | 52 | 163 | 215 | 71 | 38 | 106 | 144 | 1 | 38.00 | 106.00 | 144.00
1986-87 | 26 | EDM | 79 | 62 | 121 | 183 | 70 | 42 | 82 | 124 | 1 | 42.53 | 83.04 | 125.57
1987-88 | 27 | EDM | 64 | 40 | 109 | 149 | 39 | 26 | 65 | 91 | 1 | 32.50 | 81.25 | 113.75
1988-89 | 28 | LAK | 78 | 54 | 114 | 168 | 15 | 38 | 62 | 100 | 3 | 38.97 | 63.59 | 102.56
1989-90 | 29 | LAK | 73 | 40 | 102 | 142 | 8 | 26 | 70 | 96 | 1 | 28.49 | 76.71 | 105.21
1990-91 | 30 | LAK | 78 | 41 | 122 | 163 | 30 | 33 | 70 | 103 | 1 | 33.85 | 71.79 | 105.64
1991-92 | 31 | LAK | 74 | 31 | 90 | 121 | -12 | 17 | 46 | 63 | 8 | 18.38 | 49.73 | 68.11
1992-93 | 32 | LAK | 45 | 16 | 49 | 65 | 6 | 14 | 24 | 38 | 93 | 24.89 | 42.67 | 67.56
1993-94 | 33 | LAK | 81 | 38 | 92 | 130 | -25 | 20 | 42 | 62 | 6 | 19.75 | 41.48 | 61.23
1994-95 | 34 | LAK | 48 | 11 | 37 | 48 | -20 | 8 | 15 | 23 | 55 | 13.33 | 25.00 | 38.33
1995-96 | 35 | TOT | 80 | 23 | 79 | 102 | -13 | 16 | 38 | 54 | 19 | 16.00 | 38.00 | 54.00
1996-97 | 36 | NYR | 82 | 25 | 72 | 97 | 12 | 19 | 46 | 65 | 6 | 18.54 | 44.88 | 63.41
1997-98 | 37 | NYR | 82 | 23 | 67 | 90 | -11 | 17 | 43 | 60 | 3 | 16.59 | 41.95 | 58.54
1998-99 | 38 | NYR | 70 | 9 | 53 | 62 | -23 | 6 | 26 | 32 | 88 | 6.86 | 29.71 | 36.57

He was 2 points back of Lemieux's 102 in 88-89, otherwise he's 1st every year before 1991, even when he missed time.

He also boosted his overall points with more PP points from 92-96, masking the decline.

There is also a resurgence in New York as he maintains his ES scoring levels as league scoring drops.

 

[MS]

The most noticeable drop, imo, was after September 15 1991.

Pretty much.

Before the Suter hit, he was the greatest player ever to play the game, and a country mile ahead of all of his peers from the day he entered the league.

From that hit until his retirement, he was marginally better than Adam Oates and Ron Francis, two players of the same age who were nowhere near him for the first 12 years of his career.

 

[Ogopogo*]

In 1980-81 Gretzky breaks two of hockey's most hallowed records, Phil Esposito's record for most points (152) and Bobby Orr's record for assists (102) with 55 goals and 109 assists for 164 points. In the following 5 years, Gretzky reaches a different stratosphere that will likely never be reached again, when reaches point totals of 212, 196, 205, 208 and 215.

After the 85-86 season, Gretzky drops to 183 points in '87 and 149 points in '88 (in only 64 games, it's very likely he would of ended up with 180+ points). Could you notice a slip in his game after 1985-86?

Or was it when he went to the Kings in '88-89? His first season as a King he records 54 goals and 114 assists for 168 points in 78 games. The following season sees a big drop off, 40 goals and 102 assists for 142 points, then in 90-91 a sort of rebound with 41 goals and a 122 points for 163 points.

Obviously stats, numbers don't tell the entire story so when did you start to see a drop-off from in Gretzky where you said to yourself this isn't the same unbelievable player I watched from 1982-87ish?

Gretzky's greatest season was '86-'87 so no, there was no drop off in 1986. Look at the rest of the league, Gretzky dominated that season like nobody else has before or since. Winning a scoring title by 69% is true dominance.

 

[Big Phil]

Like others have said, after 1991. Watch him in the 1991 Canada Cup. I'll say he was every bit as good as 1987. In 1987 he had Lemieux with him, but in 1991 he was literally just a one-man show. Still shifty, still same old Gretzky. If there was a drop off from his Oiler days it was very minimal. Post 1991 is when you noticed it.

He did score more goals at different times but he still racked up the points. He just had more assists. In fact there are only three other seasons in his career where he had more assists than in 1991. He shifted emphasis on goals to assists a bit more but that was it. He was still as dangerous as ever.

Then a slow decline after 1991 that led up to 1999 where he really was "finished" by his standards. He just got older and slower and you could tell his back was wearing on him.

 

[Voight]

The most noticeable drop, imo, was after September 15 1991.

This, and I find after he was traded away from LA it slipped down to regular levels.

 

[Sens Rule]

The most noticeable drop, imo, was after September 15 1991.

His dad had a brain anerysm about a month later too. Almost died. Lost his long term memory. That was very hard for Wayne. Two worst things to happen in his career... So close together.

 

[saskganesh]

His stint in St. Louis told me that his career was on the wa(y)ne.

He scored points, and was still great, but he couldn't lift a team to the next level anymore.

 

[Terry Yake]

after the trade to LA his game started to slow down gradually but it was after the suter hit that you could clearly see he wasn't the same player

 

[The Panther]

His stint in St. Louis told me that his career was on the wa(y)ne.

He scored points, and was still great, but he couldn't lift a team to the next level anymore.

Well, he was certainly in decline long before that.

I now think of 1995 and 1995-96 as the worst seasons of his career. He was unhappy in L.A. but stuck there as the team seriously declined, and his point production was abysmal by his standards.

I don't think there is really any drop in Gretzky's game while in Edmonton. His goal production maybe went down a bit in the final three seasons, but he still led the league in goals in '86-'87 and had 30 in 37 in '87-'88 before his injury. He was starting to play more on the perimeter from 1985-86 onward, but only slightly so, and the result was 163 assists in a season, so no harm done.

And I don't think there is any drop from 1986 to 1987, despite the dip from 215 points to 183. The team dropped from 426 goals to 370-something, so if the Oilers scored 55 fewer goals on the season you'd expect Gretzky to score 30 fewer points. Also, as mentioned, his domination of the scoring race in 1987 was his greatest ever (despite it being a lower-scoring season than the previous 5 or more). He was heading towards another scoring title in '88 if not for injury, and then he scored 43 points in 18.5 playoff games!

It's hard to say whether he was declining during 1988 to 1991 with L.A. or not. There are stories that Ftorek wasn't giving him much ice-time during 1988-89 (he even benched him one game). The Kings weren't good in 1989-90. They were good in 1990-91, and Gretzky had his best post-Edmonton season. These were three outstanding seasons, but I do think there was something missing; whether that was simply the lack of chemistry/structure of the Edmonton team being built around him or whether it was Gretzky himself, I'm not sure.

But certainly his peak was done after 1991.

 

[Supreme King]

Well, he was certainly in decline long before that.

I now think of 1995 and 1995-96 as the worst seasons of his career. He was unhappy in L.A. but stuck there as the team seriously declined, and his point production was abysmal by his standards.

I don't think there is really any drop in Gretzky's game while in Edmonton. His goal production maybe went down a bit in the final three seasons, but he still led the league in goals in '86-'87 and had 30 in 37 in '87-'88 before his injury. He was starting to play more on the perimeter from 1985-86 onward, but only slightly so, and the result was 163 assists in a season, so no harm done.

And I don't think there is any drop from 1986 to 1987, despite the dip from 215 points to 183. The team dropped from 426 goals to 370-something, so if the Oilers scored 55 fewer goals on the season you'd expect Gretzky to score 30 fewer points. Also, as mentioned, his domination of the scoring race in 1987 was his greatest ever (despite it being a lower-scoring season than the previous 5 or more). He was heading towards another scoring title in '88 if not for injury, and then he scored 43 points in 18.5 playoff games!

It's hard to say whether he was declining during 1988 to 1991 with L.A. or not. There are stories that Ftorek wasn't giving him much ice-time during 1988-89 (he even benched him one game). The Kings weren't good in 1989-90. They were good in 1990-91, and Gretzky had his best post-Edmonton season. These were three outstanding seasons, but I do think there was something missing; whether that was simply the lack of chemistry/structure of the Edmonton team being built around him or whether it was Gretzky himself, I'm not sure.

But certainly his peak was done after 1991.

Valid points. Here is Gretzky in his own words in mid May of 1987 discussing "only scoring" 183 points.

This season, however, Gretzky raised a few eyebrows when he scored "just" 62 goals and 121 assists for a total of 183 points. But that still accounted for 49 percent of the Oilers offenses. And he was 75 points ahead of his nearest rival, Pittsburgh's Mario Lemieux.

"Oh, I don't think it means I'm in a slump or past my prime," Gretzky says. "After all, I was 75 points ahead of the other guy. It gives me something to shoot for next year. And if I get more than 183 points next year, they'll say 'God, he's having his best year ever.'

"I think a lot of it had to do with the other teams in our division improving so much this year. Everybody else is getting better. Both Winnipeg and Calgary were up there with us."

But Gretzky still has his detractors and he admits he is growing tired of them.

"It's always been that way for me and I don't know why," he says. "It seems like I always have to prove myself. For what reason, I don't know. I think I've proved myself over and over. At first, people said I wouldn't be able to play pro hockey, and I did that.

"Then they said 'I'm not a winner until we win a Stanley Cup.' Then we won a Stanley Cup and all of a sudden people started saying, 'Well he's never won a Canada Cup.' Then we won a Canada Cup. It's always something. It's always, 'Well he hasn't done this.' But I've done it. The only thing I haven't done is win three Stanley Cups and hopefully we can do that this year."

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Gretzkys prime was 80-81 to the sutter hit

 

[tazzy19]

Just look at what Gretzky was doing in 1984. Check the slow motion segment between 5:45 to 6:12 or so. Also check out all of his 8 points. His first goal...he makes it look so easy. Turning on a dime. Losing Neil Broten like he's a pee wee.... His 4th goal? Absurd. His first assist to Kurri...are you kidding me?! He should have broken Sitler's record this game. He had 8 points by the 2nd period.

 

[Supreme King]

Just look at what Gretzky was doing in 1984. Check the slow motion segment between 5:45 to 6:12 or so. Also check out all of his 8 points. His first goal...he makes it look so easy. Turning on a dime. Losing Neil Broten like he's a pee wee.... His 4th goal? Absurd. His first assist to Kurri...are you kidding me?! He should have broken Sitler's record this game. He had 8 points by the 2nd period.

A magician at work. I love the killer instinct he had, such a competitor.

 

[Jumptheshark]

His stint in St. Louis told me that his career was on the wa(y)ne.

He scored points, and was still great, but he couldn't lift a team to the next level anymore.

that was my thinking as well--he was still one of the better players--but he was no longer the great one

 

[Retire91]

does anyone have a video of "the hit"

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

does anyone have a video of "the hit"

Go to 3:10 mark in this video:


There's also this article from 1991 when the hit occurred.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/16/s...-is-lost-for-cup-after-injury-against-us.html

If Canada beats the United States in the championship round of the Canada Cup this week, it will have to be without Wayne Gretzky, the best player in hockey, who is out for the rest of the tournament with back spasms.

Gretzky suffered the injury Saturday night here when checked into the boards from behind by Gary Suter midway through Canada's 4-1 victory in Game 1 of the two-of-three games championship round.

Game 2 is Monday night in Hamilton, Ontario. Game 3, if necessary, will be Wednesday night, also in Hamilton. Gretzky leads the tournament in scoring with four goals and eight assists and he set up the winning goal Saturday night.

Don Koharski, the referee, called no penalty on the play. Mike Keenan, coach of Team Canada, said the check was "uncalled for."

"We'll all learn from that," Keenan added.

Gretzky said he was surprised that no penalty was called. It is not known if he will miss training camp with his National Hockey League club, the Los Angeles Kings, or if he can start the regular season with them early next month. Gretzky said the back spasms are similar to those he felt near the end of the 1989-90 season, when back pain kept him out of the lineup occasionally.

"He went for X-rays and the recommendation was that he should have some rest for a lengthy period of time," Keenan said today.

I think he'd really start to feel the effects of that hit a year later when he missed a majority of the 92-93 season due to a herniated disc in his back, thanks in part to Gary Suter's vicious cross check.

 

[tinyzombies]

Go to 3:10 mark in this video:


There's also this article from 1991 when the hit occurred.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/16/s...-is-lost-for-cup-after-injury-against-us.html


I think he'd really start to feel the effects of that hit a year later when he missed a majority of the 92-93 season due to a herniated disc in his back, thanks in part to Gary Suter's vicious cross check.

I was at the game. It happened right in front of me. Unbelievable cheapshot. Big brawl ensued - tho no real fights, just a lot of wrestling. Chelios tried to fight Lindros and did a good job tying him up actually. Looked like a child compared to Lindros, but somehow he did it.

 

[IComeInPeace]

His stint in St. Louis told me that his career was on the wa(y)ne.

He scored points, and was still great, but he couldn't lift a team to the next level anymore.

I was living is St Louis at the time, and so, so excited that Wayne was on the 'home' team (the Canucks were still my team, but I had adopted the Blues as my 'other' favorite team).

Along with a bunch of friends who I was trying hard to introduce to the game, we went to a lot of Blues games...It was very underwhelming compared to the Wayne I had seen decimate my Canucks growing up.
He put up numbers, but was playing a much smarter game, and also cheating hard offensively to keep the points coming.

Hawerchuk by the same token put up lesser numbers, but I don't think he was given anywhere near the same luxury of being allowed to be a 2 zone player. I think if he had been, their numbers and effectiveness at that point would have been more or less the same.

 

[Rebuilt]

This, and I find after he was traded away from LA it slipped down to regular levels.

You would think so but consider he left team mates in Edmonton he literally raised from marginal NHL prospects to world class players that knew eachothers every move.

In LA he had to start from scratch and basically 'train' all the players to play with him. In my opinion Gretzkys 168 points in his first season in LA without knowing any of the personnel or coaching is just as impressive as his 200 point seasons from 84 -86 when Messier, Anderson Coffey Kurri and others knew how to play with him.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I was at the game. It happened right in front of me. Unbelievable cheapshot. Big brawl ensued - tho no real fights, just a lot of wrestling. Chelios tried to fight Lindros and did a good job tying him up actually. Looked like a child compared to Lindros, but somehow he did it.

The thing is that type of hit occurs so much more often in the game today and may people here would "justify" that hit to one of their stars with a "Wayne was facing the boards after a weak backhand pass and Suter finished his check" type of argument.

The increasing physicality of the game from 1980 to 190 and beyond simply would have altered Gretzky's fortunes, to what degree we will never know but injuries to elite star players increased dramatically in the 90's compared to when Wayne entered the league plain and simple.

Bure, Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Neely....among many.

 

[Mr. Fancy Pants]

does anyone have a video of "the hit"

You can watch the full play here (start at 22:50)

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

The thing is that type of hit occurs so much more often in the game today and may people here would "justify" that hit to one of their stars with a "Wayne was facing the boards after a weak backhand pass and Suter finished his check" type of argument.

The increasing physicality of the game from 1980 to 190 and beyond simply would have altered Gretzky's fortunes, to what degree we will never know but injuries to elite star players increased dramatically in the 90's compared to when Wayne entered the league plain and simple.

Bure, Lindros, Forsberg, Kariya, Neely....among many.

Oh, come on. This is your silliest one yet.

The game is simply not as physical now as it was in the 80s or 90s. Back then, a crosscheck to the face was considered 'being a competitor'.

There have always been players who struggled to stay healthy.