When Did You Realize Crosby Was Better Than Ovechkin?

[wetcoast]

Well that's mostly because Crosby is Canadian and Ovechkin is Russian. I maintain my position that it sucks simply because the whole premise is based around that everybody agrees that Crosby is infact better than Ovechkin when he is most certainly not. I am not partial since I am not Russian or Canadian and I hold Ovechkin in higher regard.

Really this is an old worn out argument, and talk about making assumptions?

If it really was the case Ovechkin's trophy case would be smaller.

One can be partial without being Canadian or Russian.

In fact having an opinion on the matter makes one partial to one player over the other, right?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Mike, you seem sensitive about this? lol. I never said Sid "didn't deserve any credit." I said, he wasn't a factor in a decisive game 7 because he didn't play. That is a fact. If Talbot doesn't lose his mind and score those goals, the Pens could easily have lost that game and Sid doesn't even get a Cup.

I said that, based on playoffs his first 5 years, he was clearly better in the playoffs than Ovie, but the margin wasn't so astronomical that it completely obliterated all that Ovechkin accomplished in terms of stats and individual awards.

Throughout most of their careers, the jury was out on who the better player was over the duration. I feel the edge goes to Sid, but it has been close, especially with Ovie finally getting his Cup and Conn Smythe (his big glaring weakness) and continuing to score at an elite level.

The rest of the book is still unwritten. Right now, I rank Sid ahead of Ovechkin. But I stand by my opinion that if Ovie scores 895+ career goals, he will go down as a better player than Crosby when it's all said and done. He will be considered the greatest goalscorer in NHL history... and Sid, while incredible, will never be considered "the single greatest in NHL history" in regards to anything. He won't even go down as the greatest player in his franchise's history.

In all likelihood, both will end up top-10 all-time when it's over.

I'm not sensitive about this the topic specifically, but the "logic" being used here to justify it is troubling. I don't think it should go unchecked because it doesn't jive with reality.

Sid did play that game. He played in every period of that game. Talbot didn't lose his mind...Osgood gave up two bad goals in big spots because he's not that good of a goalie.

The rest of the sentence is: if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle stuff. Yeah, if the Pens lost, Sid wouldn't have a Cup in '09, got it.

That's all...the rest is whatever. I don't mind if someone likes Ovechkin more - it's a funhouse mirror way to look at the game - but if you really like goal-scoring and you put that on a pedestal (and I don't think that's unfair to do), then sure...but go about it honestly, don't tell me Sid didn't play in game 7 and therefore it taints the playoff he had...that's gibberish.

 

[wetcoast]

As absurd as that sounds, as of today - probably.

Right now, I have Sid ranked above Ovechkin all-time. Not by a lot, but Sid is higher than him in my book. But, if Ovechkin ends up breaking Gretzky's record, that means he would need to average 40 goals for like another 6 years (while staying healthy), which would be absolutely insane. Ovie scoring at a 40 goal pace at 38 and 39 years old would be legendary. Even if he scores 50+ over the next 3 years, he still needs to stay healthy and finish strong in his late-30's.

And to answer your question - barring either player going on some miracle Cup run where they win 2-3 more Cups, the measuring stick between the two would be so close, even if Ovie scores 840 goals, that it would take him officially becoming the Greatest Goal Scorer in NHL History to move him ahead of Crosby IMO.

Think about that for a second - more career goals than Wayne Gretzky. Yep, that would cement him as the 5th best all-time in my books. He'll have his Cup, his Conn Smythe, his shelves and shelves of individual hardware. And he'll have a record that might not be broken in many decades.

I think you are making too much of holding the most goals scored ever argument.

Richard held it for a while after he passed Nels Stewart.

As big of a legend that Richard is, he was never seriously considered as the best player of all time, Stewart even less so.

Don't get me wrong holding the all time scoring record 100 plus years into NHL history will be an amazing accomplishment but it really only tells us one single thing.

That would be that Ovechkin is the greatest goalscorer of all time, something that I think he will be considered as even if he doesn't reach the record.

Being one goal short of Gretzky or one goal ahead wouldn't change this would it?

As for who is better between Sid and Alex, it's more important to look at the whole picture to get a whole answer.

 

[Michael Farkas]

As big of a legend that Richard is, he was never seriously considered as the best player of all time,

Because of the glaring incompleteness of his game, no doubt.


Though, he could get away with it easier because a) he played in the War Zone b) he was the most technically skilled player through 1950, but more likely, through to 1967...though, Bobby Hull makes me pause, so does Jean Beliveau to a degree...

 

[sdf]

after he tripped on the 2010 olympic games

 

[Boxscore]

Really this is an old worn out argument, and talk about making assumptions?

If it really was the case Ovechkin's trophy case would be smaller.

One can be partial without being Canadian or Russian.

In fact having an opinion on the matter makes one partial to one player over the other, right?

I think the poster was referring to general fan perception - and I happen to agree to an extent.

Points:
Ovechkin: 1174
Crosby: 1171

Hart Trophies:
Ovechkin: 3
Crosby: 2

Art Ross Trophies:
Crosby: 2
Ovechkin: 1

Rocket Richard Trophies:
Ovechkin: 7
Crosby: 2

Cups:
Crosby: 3
Ovechkin: 1

Conn Smythe:
Crosby: 2
Ovechkin: 1

Calder Trophy:
Ovechkin: 1
Crosby: 0

Ted Lindsay Awards:
3 each

All-Star Honors:
Ovechkin: 11
Crosby: 7

We're looking at two very impressive trophy cases right here. Considering that Ovechkin has an extra Hart Trophy than Crosby and is slaughtering him in the Rocket Richard column, you would think the general consensus would be that these players are fairly neck-and-neck, career wise.

Ovechkin has 1 Cup, 16 individual awards, and 11 All-Star honors.
Crosby has 3 Cups, 11 individual awards, and 7 All-Star honors.

Yes, Sid plays a more complete game than Ovechkin, but it's not like Crosby has Selke Trophies in his case - he's not Datsyuk.

Like I said, in this close race, I (TODAY) give the nod to Crosby. But it's not the runaway landslide that many make it out to be, and I feel that is due to a slight bias - not just in country of origin but a bias in personality as well. Ovechkin is flashy, bombastic, over-the-top, and cocky at times. There are many fans who simply dislike that. I know fans who never particularly liked Jeremy Roenick for the same reason.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes, Sid plays a more complete game than Ovechkin, but it's not like Crosby has Selke Trophies in his case - he's not Datsyuk.

Ricky Bobby syndrome again haha...if you're not first, your last. The open dismissal, semi-dismissal or whatever some of the lawyers here want to term it, is how you end up at neck and neck...

Ovechkin is the best at X.

Crosby is the best at probably Y, but he's elite (but sub #1) at A, B, C, D, E, etc.

When you scrape off the non-#1 things, it's a complete walk. When you just look at in a binary lens, it becomes a conversation.

 

[daver]

Perhaps slight edge to Sid, but still considered them neck and neck and interchangeable. Pens had more playoff success but they also had better players. And Sid, while putting up some very nice numbers early on in the playoffs, wasn't a Conn Smythe winner and didn't even factor in the game 7 win to Detroit. So, yes, Sid had a better playoff showing, but Ovie was more dynamic (generally speaking), way more fun to watch, and had some insane hardware to battle Sid as the best in the world.

Like I said, what Sid did in the 3rd Cup, showed me he was the best in the world, without question. Before that, there was always a debate in my mind - sometimes Sid, sometimes Ovie, even Malkin in a rare blue moon, etc.

I mean perhaps this is nitpicking because you eventually get there with Crosby but why didn't you have Crosby clearly ahead after the 13/14 season, if not before, when his regular season performances were on another tier from OV?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Ricky Bobby syndrome again haha...if you're not first, your last. The open dismissal, semi-dismissal or whatever some of the lawyers here want to term it, is how you end up at neck and neck...

Ovechkin is the best at X.

Crosby is the best at probably Y, but he's elite (but sub #1) at A, B, C, D, E, etc.

When you scrape off the non-#1 things, it's a complete walk. When you just look at in a binary lens, it becomes a conversation.

its really a toss up, and a lot closer than the Crosby Fan Club wants to admit.

It really comes down to preference. Do you want the elite playmaking center, or the elite goal scoring/physical winger.

Crosby dominates Ovechkin in playmaking, Ovechkin dominates Crosby in goal scoring. Crosby is the better defensively, Ovechkin is much more physical. It really is a coin flip at this point

and your Ricky Bobby argument doesnt hold up:

Top 10 points:

Ovechkin: 1-2-2-3-3-4-7-8
Crosby: 1-1-2-2-3-3-3-3-6-10

Top 10 goals:

Ovechkin: 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-3-3-4-5
Crosby: 1-1-7-7

Top 10 assists:

Ovechkin: 6-6-10
Crosby: 1-2-2-2-3-7-7-8-9

Top 10 goals created:

Ovechkin: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-4-6-6-6
Crosby: 1-1-2-2-3-5-7-9

Top 10 Point Shares:

Ovechkin: 1-4-4-5-9-9
Crosby: 3-7-9

 

[daver]

Like I said, in this close race, I (TODAY) give the nod to Crosby. But it's not the runaway landslide that many make it out to be, and I feel that is due to a slight bias - not just in country of origin but a bias in personality as well. Ovechkin is flashy, bombastic, over-the-top, and cocky at times. There are many fans who simply dislike that. I know fans who never particularly liked Jeremy Roenick for the same reason.

Noone in this thread has implied that so why even mention it. The Canada/Russia thing should be called out for what it is.

Complete BS.

 

[daver]

its really a toss up, and a lot closer than the Crosby Fan Club wants to admit.

It really comes down to preference. Do you want the elite playmaking center, or the elite goal scoring/physical winger.

Crosby dominates Ovechkin in playmaking, Ovechkin dominates Crosby in goal scoring. Crosby is the better defensively, Ovechkin is much more physical. It really is a coin flip at this point

and your Ricky Bobby argument doesnt hold up:

Top 10 points:

Ovechkin: 1-2-2-3-3-4-7-8
Crosby: 1-1-2-2-3-3-3-3-6-10

Top 10 goals:

Ovechkin: 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-3-3-4-5
Crosby: 1-1-7-7

Top 10 assists:

Ovechkin: 6-6-10
Crosby: 1-2-2-2-3-7-7-8-9

Top 10 goals created:

Ovechkin: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-4-6-6-6
Crosby: 1-1-2-2-3-5-7-9

Top 10 Point Shares:

Ovechkin: 1-4-4-5-9-9
Crosby: 3-7-9

If OV's domination in goals is meaningful, then Crosby's domination as an overall offensive force is just as meaningful.

Crosby's Top 3 Art Ross finishes have garnered almost the exact same level of Hart and Lindsay trophies and votes as OV's Rocket wins. OV's goal totals are somewhat of a moot point.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

its really a toss up, and a lot closer than the Crosby Fan Club wants to admit.

It really comes down to preference. Do you want the elite playmaking center, or the elite goal scoring/physical winger.

Crosby dominates Ovechkin in playmaking, Ovechkin dominates Crosby in goal scoring. Crosby is the better defensively, Ovechkin is much more physical. It really is a coin flip at this point

and your Ricky Bobby argument doesnt hold up:

Top 10 points:

Ovechkin: 1-2-2-3-3-4-7-8
Crosby: 1-1-2-2-3-3-3-3-6-10

Top 10 goals:

Ovechkin: 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-3-3-4-5
Crosby: 1-1-7-7

Top 10 assists:

Ovechkin: 6-6-10
Crosby: 1-2-2-2-3-7-7-8-9

Top 10 goals created:

Ovechkin: 1-1-1-1-1-2-2-4-6-6-6
Crosby: 1-1-2-2-3-5-7-9

Top 10 Point Shares:

Ovechkin: 1-4-4-5-9-9
Crosby: 3-7-9

Goals created? Point shares? Seriously? You actually believe that a goal is worth exactly twice an assist?

 

[Michael Farkas]

You'd need to...

 

[Dingo]

I think the poster was referring to general fan perception - and I happen to agree to an extent.

Points:
Ovechkin: 1174
Crosby: 1171

Hart Trophies:
Ovechkin: 3
Crosby: 2

Art Ross Trophies:
Crosby: 2
Ovechkin: 1

Rocket Richard Trophies:
Ovechkin: 7
Crosby: 2

Cups:
Crosby: 3
Ovechkin: 1

Conn Smythe:
Crosby: 2
Ovechkin: 1

Calder Trophy:
Ovechkin: 1
Crosby: 0

Ted Lindsay Awards:
3 each

All-Star Honors:
Ovechkin: 11
Crosby: 7

We're looking at two very impressive trophy cases right here. Considering that Ovechkin has an extra Hart Trophy than Crosby and is slaughtering him in the Rocket Richard column, you would think the general consensus would be that these players are fairly neck-and-neck, career wise.

Ovechkin has 1 Cup, 16 individual awards, and 11 All-Star honors.
Crosby has 3 Cups, 11 individual awards, and 7 All-Star honors.

Yes, Sid plays a more complete game than Ovechkin, but it's not like Crosby has Selke Trophies in his case - he's not Datsyuk.

Like I said, in this close race, I (TODAY) give the nod to Crosby. But it's not the runaway landslide that many make it out to be, and I feel that is due to a slight bias - not just in country of origin but a bias in personality as well. Ovechkin is flashy, bombastic, over-the-top, and cocky at times. There are many fans who simply dislike that. I know fans who never particularly liked Jeremy Roenick for the same reason.

I like this post a lot, but I don’t think it’s really nationalism or personality (in fact, I think most people I know love OVs personality and think Sid is a limp noodle), I think it’s just about media. We have been told since before they entered the league that Sid is better. Even when Ovie was without a doubt better, before Sid hit his peak and before he had really developed much of an all around game, and actually before the Golden Goal (which he was given far too much career credit for, IMO) there was still a narrative based around that one Cup.
People get brainwashed. Simple as that. It’s in politics, it’s everywhere. The media doesn’t have to lie, just report what they want to over and over until it is the truth.

My two cents on this - Sid is a better all around player, as most centres are. He has also been better more often over their careers. Their peak abilities are hard to separate as they have different roles and positions, but Ovechkins peak was more complete and healthy. I’ve got to give it to him. Ovechkin was also better at what he does, compared to all time greats, than Sid is to his comparables.

But I dislike linear rankings, especially between those in different positions. The truth is that my ability to read, play and comprehend greatness in hockey is limited to my own ability. Both of these guys are the absolute cream of a crop of millions of athletes vying for the same goals. This is much like the difference between a 9 or 10 as far as pretty women - a ten is just the one you personally like more. They’re both tens.

If I had Crosby, Forsberg, Fedorov, Datsyuk and Francis in my lineup, I’d be begging to trade Crosby for Ovechkin (primes, I’m talking), if I had Brett Hull, Ovie, Bure, Robitaille and Bossy, I’d be begging to trade Ovie for Crosby.

 

[Boxscore]

I think it’s just about media. We have been told since before they entered the league that Sid is better. Even when Ovie was without a doubt better, before Sid hit his peak and before he had really developed much of an all around game, and actually before the Golden Goal (which he was given far too much career credit for, IMO) there was still a narrative based around that one Cup.
People get brainwashed. Simple as that. It’s in politics, it’s everywhere. The media doesn’t have to lie, just report what they want to over and over until it is the truth.

You are 100% right. There is a term for this in politics and marketing - it's called an "illusory truth."

I've said that for years. Coming out of the lockout, the "new NHL" was all about marketing Crosby as the next Gretzky, and they had to make every good play "great" and every great play "legendary" in order to push the narrative. And the hockey media latched on. To your point - an example of this was the "Golden Goal." If Jamie Benn or Joe Thornton scores that goal, it's a "winning goal" but since Crosby scored it, it's the "Golden Goal" and plastered all over the place like it was Henderson and Eruzione lumped into one. Crosby scored the goal, so it fit the narrative perfectly... it wasn't even that great of a goal TBH. A save that Miller definitely should have made, considering the saves he made in that game. It is what it is.

The illusory truth was in full effect when I started seeing the media say things like, "Is Crosby greater than Gretzky?" and nonsense like that. It was so over-the-top but people still pushed it.

To me, Crosby was the best player in the world (off an on) since his rookie year throughout 2017-18. There were times Ovechkin, Malkin, Price, Karlsson, Kane made cases for being the best - granted, not for as long as a period as Crosby. But, he has two Hart Trophies over his career... so it's not like he had the MVP on lock-down like Gretzky did when he won 9 in 10 years. There is no way to justify that Crosby was the best player in the world throughout the entirety of his prime like Gretzky was, followed by Lemieux.

Despite the illusory truth and media agenda, Crosby won me over after his 3rd Cup. During that run, he literally put the team on his back at times, played an unparalleled full meal game, and showed incredible leadership. Even though I never drank the Sid kool-aid, at that point, I felt he established himself as the best player on earth.

Now, it looks like McDavid is cutting into that, and Ovechkin still continues to prove he is an elite force (and one of the best goal scorers of all-time).

 

[The Panther]

Can I just say that the last 2 posts above (Dingo and Boxscore's) are the best in this rather silly thread?

I wish people would stop the narrative of choosing their favorite of two highly comparable players and pretending that one is way superior. That's main board stuff.

 

[wetcoast]

Can I just say that the last 2 posts above (Dingo and Boxscore's) are the best in this rather silly thread?

Fully agree 2 excellent posts here.

I wish people would stop the narrative of choosing their favorite of two highly comparable players and pretending that one is way superior. That's main board stuff.

I think it does rank here because it's historic in nature and scope.

 

[Boxscore]

I think it does rank here because it's historic in nature and scope.

I "think" what Panther meant was the hyperbolic "so and so is better an it ain't even close" nonsense is usually on display on the main board, but the history board is more practical, level-headed, and generally refrains from such outlandish talk.

 

[The Panther]

I "think" what Panther meant was the hyperbolic "so and so is better an it ain't even close" nonsense is usually on display on the main board, but the history board is more practical, level-headed, and generally refrains from such outlandish talk.

That's right.

 

[feffan]

14/15 OV quite clearly had the better season and was the better player. 3 less pts but 25 more goals. Finished 2nd in hart voting to Crosby's 5th.

17/18 was also OV. Crosby wasn't even top 15 in hart voting.

It's mostly becsuse as I see it by this time Crosby and Ovechkin where more like the versions of them selfes that other posters try to backtrack to their early careers. With Crosby reaching a more complete game. But I can see your point.

 

[WingsFan95]

He isn't..........

What's funny is when people bring up playoffs, Ovechkin is .504 goals average while Crosby is .412

Only thing Crosby has is 2 additional rings and the Gold medal winning goal in 2010. I mean really.

 

[Hobnobs]

He isn't

 

[Michael Farkas]

Solid bumps...serious.

 

[Hobnobs]

Solid bumps...serious.

I didnt see it was an old thread. However, would you rather had the bumper create a new thread?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Nah, I'd rather just not have things bumped with a rather disingenuous, zero value-add...but that's exactly what happened. Entonces, people think it's a new thread...say nothing of value and/or recycle points that were already made/beaten to death...it's a bad time for all...