What's Your Prediction for Athanasiou's Future?

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Jul 6, 2012
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If he is not going to get a top 4 D or high draft pick then why bother trading him? No point trading him for a 3rd round pick because the chances of that player being a better NHLer are slim. Also, his 4th round pick wasn't necessarily his "stuff that got him traded". He didn't light it up his draft year (a stacked Knights team) and with a returning team, he asked for a team closer to a team near his Toronto home.

I am not going to go in length about how you just said that Abdelkader and Helm stat's are comparable, unless your counting penalty minutes, then yes Abby has better stats! Not even remotely similar at the age AA is.

Even though you don't see him bouncing back, I do not see a reason to not have him on the opening roster next year unless he publicly asks for a trade, because with the roster we have back next year we might be celebrating goals rather then wins next year....

Because if I don't think he'll improve from where he sits now (and unless he has an hitherto unforeseen change in his approach, I don't), what do I gain by holding on to him?

And again, I don't care about what age they were at when they did it. The issue is... Helm and Abdelkader (and others on the roster, they're just among the guys with the worst reps for play) in the middle of their contracts where they are essentially deadweight that we couldn't move for half of a puck and are decried as being worthless are within 5 points of him. Helm is comparatively less scoring time per game.

A young guy won't just improve because he's a young guy and he gets older. AA in three years does the same exact things he's always done. He has the same mental lapses and lack of interest in backchecking that he's always had.

It's like if you had two students both getting C grades. One you can see is putting in extra hours studying, asking questions, and you can see that they really want to get better at the things you're telling them. The other aces a mid-term, but hand in assignments late during the year and ****s off during lectures and continues doing exactly that for the majority of the time.

Which one would you have more faith in getting better? If I saw any consistent game-in, game-out improvement in what he does, I'd be willing to pay attention to keeping him around and nurturing him. If he's going to end up as the same 35-40 point winger who plays no defense and coasts around... what the hell is the point? I'll get excited when he gets a breakaway like he can do something with it... but if you're actually honest with yourself and you want the Wings to really become a good team again, you move on from AA and let another team try to coax the points out of him and deal with the fallout if/when the leopard doesn't change his spots.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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If one student is 33 and the other is 23, the younger one you still have more hope to correct their mistakes and become better. AA being more productive at a far younger age speaks to his higher offensive ceiling. I'm not saying AA will right his ship, or that I wouldn't deal him. But I wouldn't give him (or Gator or Helm) away just to free up a roster spot or whatever.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
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Checked some contract comparables for Athanasiou and found Connor Brown (2.1M), Radek Faksa (2.4M) and Josh Anderson (1.8M).

2.1M contract extension isn't far away from the truth, arbitrator or not.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
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Tampere, Finland
I think a pick is much more likely. However I came up with this story in my mind to create a long shot I told you so.

Basically Brandon Guhle likely lost his spot to one Rasmus Dahlin, and I have a feeling Brandon Guhle is someone KH really likes. KH said in that press conference he needs to trade a roster player, and it's not hard to imagine which one.

Yeah, it will be Xavier Ouellet.
 

Nut Upstrom

You dirty dog!
Dec 18, 2010
3,206
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Checked some contract comparables for Athanasiou and found Connor Brown (2.1M), Radek Faksa (2.4M) and Josh Anderson (1.8M).

2.1M contract extension isn't far away from the truth, arbitrator or not.

If he signs without going through arbitration that would, in my eyes, show that he's worth holding on to; it would show to me that he is not trying to get out of Detroit as badly as I think he wants to. If AA wants to be here then I want us to hold onto him for at least a few more years and let him work out his overall game in that time.
If he drags the team into arbitration and asks for more than he's worth again it makes me continue to question his character and/or tells me that he simply does not want to be in Detroit, at which point the team would be wise to get max return for him before he can skip away for nothing.
 

masta8

Registered User
Apr 26, 2018
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Because if I don't think he'll improve from where he sits now (and unless he has an hitherto unforeseen change in his approach, I don't), what do I gain by holding on to him?

And again, I don't care about what age they were at when they did it. The issue is... Helm and Abdelkader (and others on the roster, they're just among the guys with the worst reps for play) in the middle of their contracts where they are essentially deadweight that we couldn't move for half of a puck and are decried as being worthless are within 5 points of him. Helm is comparatively less scoring time per game.

A young guy won't just improve because he's a young guy and he gets older. AA in three years does the same exact things he's always done. He has the same mental lapses and lack of interest in backchecking that he's always had.

It's like if you had two students both getting C grades. One you can see is putting in extra hours studying, asking questions, and you can see that they really want to get better at the things you're telling them. The other aces a mid-term, but hand in assignments late during the year and ****s off during lectures and continues doing exactly that for the majority of the time.

Which one would you have more faith in getting better? If I saw any consistent game-in, game-out improvement in what he does, I'd be willing to pay attention to keeping him around and nurturing him. If he's going to end up as the same 35-40 point winger who plays no defense and coasts around... what the hell is the point? I'll get excited when he gets a breakaway like he can do something with it... but if you're actually honest with yourself and you want the Wings to really become a good team again, you move on from AA and let another team try to coax the points out of him and deal with the fallout if/when the leopard doesn't change his spots.

You also got to understand that not every player on a team is going to be a 2 way player. AA will never have the defensive and backchecking ability you want him to be, but if he still scores 20 goals and puts up 45 points in a top 9 role then what is the issue?
Too many times last year we would get scored on and have to play catch up the rest of the game.. who can we rely on to make things happen? Looking at our roster not too many options to choose from, but AA certainly is one. If were going to be rebuilding the next years I at least want to be remotely entertained too, not have Helm and Glendening playing 15 minutes per game on our top 9.
 

masta8

Registered User
Apr 26, 2018
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If he signs without going through arbitration that would, in my eyes, show that he's worth holding on to; it would show to me that he is not trying to get out of Detroit as badly as I think he wants to. If AA wants to be here then I want us to hold onto him for at least a few more years and let him work out his overall game in that time.
If he drags the team into arbitration and asks for more than he's worth again it makes me continue to question his character and/or tells me that he simply does not want to be in Detroit, at which point the team would be wise to get max return for him before he can skip away for nothing.
Well said.
 

Nut Upstrom

You dirty dog!
Dec 18, 2010
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Florida
You also got to understand that not every player on a team is going to be a 2 way player. AA will never have the defensive and backchecking ability you want him to be, but if he still scores 20 goals and puts up 45 points in a top 9 role then what is the issue?
Too many times last year we would get scored on and have to play catch up the rest of the game.. who can we rely on to make things happen? Looking at our roster not too many options to choose from, but AA certainly is one. If were going to be rebuilding the next years I at least want to be remotely entertained too, not have Helm and Glendening playing 15 minutes per game on our top 9.


I disagree with you here, or at least, in AA's case, I don't see it as the player lacking the ability or the talent to be defensive or to back check; I think the real issue is that AA just doesn't put in the effort to do those things on a consistent basis. I think that, with his skill set, if he put in the work he could be a pain in the ass pitbull of a back checker. He's done some time killing penalties and looks pretty solid at times without even considering the SH scoring chances he can generate.

Now, if the idea of playing defensive hockey and back checking just never reaches him for some reason, I'm totally ok with holding on to him if he wants to be here. He's fun to watch as he is right now, but I'd love for him to become the player he could be if he decides to work his ass off and commit to becoming a more complete player. At the end of the day, my personal opinion is that he wants out, and going on that assumption, my prediction is that he gets traded within the next year. I don't know enough to speculate as to whether a new coach would change his mind about that or if his reasons go deeper.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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You also got to understand that not every player on a team is going to be a 2 way player. AA will never have the defensive and backchecking ability you want him to be, but if he still scores 20 goals and puts up 45 points in a top 9 role then what is the issue?
Too many times last year we would get scored on and have to play catch up the rest of the game.. who can we rely on to make things happen? Looking at our roster not too many options to choose from, but AA certainly is one. If were going to be rebuilding the next years I at least want to be remotely entertained too, not have Helm and Glendening playing 15 minutes per game on our top 9.

If a guy is going to be a one way player... I want him scoring more than 20 and 45. I mean, that's the production I would expect from a good two way player.

But particularly with a guy who has AA's measureables. Maybe I'm being unfair to him in my expectations... but he's just seemingly so much more skilled than an okay top 9 forward.

It's basically something if he's only going to be as good as Dan Cleary in 2008 (who was a good player mind you), he's eminently replaceable and I don't have any desire in putting up with his contract nonsense. If he shows any inclination at getting better at the little things, I change my mind on him. Until he does so... He's a dime a dozen player who will always tease you with more. I want my third line players to be rock solid, steady guys I can throw out there and will play low-event, team hockey while my best players clean up. I'd love if a motivated AA is one of my best players. I think he should be based on what he can do in short spurts.
 
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Mlotek

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Feb 28, 2017
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Backchecking is always a question of will. Not really a question of skill.

That being said, if you think an AA player is worth $2 million a year, your estimation is little off.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
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You also got to understand that not every player on a team is going to be a 2 way player. AA will never have the defensive and backchecking ability you want him to be, but if he still scores 20 goals and puts up 45 points in a top 9 role then what is the issue?
Too many times last year we would get scored on and have to play catch up the rest of the game.. who can we rely on to make things happen? Looking at our roster not too many options to choose from, but AA certainly is one. If were going to be rebuilding the next years I at least want to be remotely entertained too, not have Helm and Glendening playing 15 minutes per game on our top 9.

If its having a one dimensional offensive forward in the top 9 who scores 20 goals/45 points or having a two way or gritty forward that scores 15/35 I'd rather take the two way or gritty forward. Providing anemic offense only isn't anything special. At least with a Helm/Abby type players they bring other skills with them. And the issue is that other teams love playing what amounts to 5v4 hockey once every 4 shifts a game. Its better to have someone who provides 35 points and helps prevent the other teams scoring 10 goals a season than it is to have a 45 point player whose inability to give a shit leads to the other teams scoring extra 10 goals a season.
 
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Winger98

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35 points is something we might be pretty hard pressed to pull from Helm or Gator. Helm's never done it, and Gator rode an insane November to it this year. I don't necessarily disagree with the concept of taking the gritty, two way as long as they actually produce that, but I'm not sure we have those guys. At least not with Gator and Helm.
 

masta8

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Apr 26, 2018
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If a guy is going to be a one way player... I want him scoring more than 20 and 45. I mean, that's the production I would expect from a good two way player.

But particularly with a guy who has AA's measureables. Maybe I'm being unfair to him in my expectations... but he's just seemingly so much more skilled than an okay top 9 forward.

It's basically something if he's only going to be as good as Dan Cleary in 2008 (who was a good player mind you), he's eminently replaceable and I don't have any desire in putting up with his contract nonsense. If he shows any inclination at getting better at the little things, I change my mind on him. Until he does so... He's a dime a dozen player who will always tease you with more. I want my third line players to be rock solid, steady guys I can throw out there and will play low-event, team hockey while my best players clean up. I'd love if a motivated AA is one of my best players. I think he should be based on what he can do in short spurts.

You have high hopes for the Red Wing's pal... this is 2018 not the 2008 Detroit Red Wings... We only had one guy score 20+ and 45+ this year (Mantha) so yes I would love for AA to become a 20 goal and 45 guy which I think is a realistic expectation imo.
 

SoupGuru

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Vegas is rewriting the handbook.

If you want to play and you want to give it your all, we can go places.

If you only show up every other game, gtfo and let someone take your spot that's hungry.
 
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Invictus12

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-I didn't think he was worth the money then. I've always seen AA as Ysebaert 2.0 (and I've said that several times). He's fast, fun, but not some top 6 gem.

-Like it was with Datsyuk? Seems to stand in opposition to a committed rebuild.

-In the sense that he consistently errs conservatively with young guys, sure. Most of us, myself included, just want to see him apportion his conservative approach to the elder contracts. I think it's great that he doesn't break the bank for bridges... but the Datsyuk trade, Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, DeKeyser, and other veteran contracts stand in opposition to a tethered rebuild philosophy.

I have yet to see a coherent explanation as to why any of those contracts in anyway hamper a rebuild. Hell, if we're looking to make the playoffs next season (Lets say kids really step up) You kind of want to make the best of it. Try and go as far as you can. When we don't he looks to get pick for expiring contracts. Seems like he's playing it both ways.

Have you also considered that Holland simply didn't view Chychrun all too highly? Certainly, quite a few GMs didn't either. Again though, how in any way does Nielsen hamper the rebuild? He either helps move the needle or he doesn't. Since he seems to be not, he doesn't hamper anything. You still have to put out a roster you know. At the same time, wouldn't you want your kids play with an experienced vet as oppose to an AHL player that can't and won't in anyway provide any meaningful insight on what you can do and look out for?

Also, how is it that people scorn contracts on players that before those contracts, actually showed up and played with consistent effort, (Mind you, they were all young and promising at some point) versus a player that have yet to do the same but has the potential to do so.

I said last year and I'll say the same, the reality is that if you really want to fit someone in the lineup, you can always adjust. Via trade, waivers or whatever options are available. Just because folks can't bend their minds here doesn't mean GMs can't.

Last and most importantly, what was ultimately the position of half the folks here is that Holland somehow should of let a RFA kid, who had no leverage and no pedigree to demand unreasonable amount from the team to literally hold him hostage on contract negotiations. What Holland did was make moves in accordance with assuming Athanasiou could be sitting the year out.
 

Hen Kolland

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Feb 22, 2018
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I have yet to see a coherent explanation as to why any of those contracts in anyway hamper a rebuild.

Because cap flexibility is king. It's not to say that these contracts are 100% hurting the rebuild, but the practice of signing yourself to the cap ceiling with contracts at top 6 F/top 2 D $$ for bottom 6 F/bottom pair D type of players is a bad practice to have. Artificially propping up performance by getting a costly, declining veteran who is still more productive than a cheap, up and coming rookie does hurt the rebuild. If Holland goes out and re-signs Green for $8M/2 years this offseason and it keeps Hronek or Cholowski (whoever is next in line) in the minors, you have no problem with that?
 

JoesuffP

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You’re speaking in hypotheticals just for the sake of argument. Yes, if Nielsen was blocking a young center from playing that was good enough it would be bad but we don’t sooo who cares. Meanwhile Rasmussen is almost guaranteed on the team next year along with Neilson so what are you really arguing about
 

Invictus12

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Because cap flexibility is king. It's not to say that these contracts are 100% hurting the rebuild, but the practice of signing yourself to the cap ceiling with contracts at top 6 F/top 2 D $$ for bottom 6 F/bottom pair D type of players is a bad practice to have. Artificially propping up performance by getting a costly, declining veteran who is still more productive than a cheap, up and coming rookie does hurt the rebuild. If Holland goes out and re-signs Green for $8M/2 years this offseason and it keeps Hronek or Cholowski (whoever is next in line) in the minors, you have no problem with that?

If you're rebuilding, going through the draft, I seriously don't see how you need to be very flexible on cap when rebuild pretty much implies nothing but entry-level contracts. For that you actually have to draft a player and often develop him into a competent NHL player. Usually takes a few years... Hence, when we actually need the money, the contracts in question are just about up, one by one year by year plus the fact that the cap going up.

Lets be reality... Cholowski and Hronek aren't going to replace Green on the line up. You know very well that the guys that will get bumped down are Jensen, Ouelette, Hicketts... If they can't beat those guys out of the spot, what does it matter if Green is in the line up or not? Having a young player on the roster just for the sake of youth, to me is illogical in every sense. You might as well put a 12 year old on the ice because he has potential. They either show they're ready in training cap or the team will deem they need time in the AHL to learn more.

Those contract might be slightly higher then they worth (Some) but lets no exaggerate too much here.
 
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odin1981

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Mar 8, 2013
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So London traded him to Barrie for kicks?

When guys as talented as AA fall into the 4th... it's because there is something intangibly wrong with them that other teams are worried they can't fix. How in the world are you not getting this?

You add in stats to show how good he is in comparison to these 1st rounders... and all it does it set in concrete that there was something wrong with him that teams didn't like. Guys with 1st round talent and similar stats to 1st rounders don't just fall to the 4th round for S's and G's.

He's not a bust... but I am not interested in the edification of Andreas Athanasiou or providing him with the top 6 role you think he deserves unless that role also helps Detroit as a team. I do not care about any one particular player.

Guess what, Justin Abdelkader is a top 6/9 winger who scores 20 goals and 45 points and people give him 29.75 million yards of ****. If AA with all of his talent and lack of defensive responsibility can't outscore ****ing Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader (in terms of counting stats, not rate, because he's already shown that his P/60 rate won't hold up if he's given more minutes), I don't want to hear about how he's being misused.

Justin Abdelkader is not a top 6 forward. He barely put up 40 points a year attached to a ppg Z or Datsyuk. He is a career bottom 6 winger who is overpaid because our teams GM has lost his touch with old age. Also both Helm and idiot #8 where given more ice time because anyone with offensive potential is put into positions to impede their offensive production because we are tanking (aside from Larkin and Mantha).

Abby has next to no hockey IQ, takes incessant stupid penalties, and when he dusts the gloves off he gets his ass kicked 80%+ of the time so he lets the opposing team get adrenal edges and adds to their momentum. His best and only good trait is that he can pk however you have to take that with a grain of salt because his propensity to take a stupid penalty further increases the chances of the pk being a 5 on 3 instead of just remaining a 5 on 4.
 

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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35 points is something we might be pretty hard pressed to pull from Helm or Gator. Helm's never done it, and Gator rode an insane November to it this year. I don't necessarily disagree with the concept of taking the gritty, two way as long as they actually produce that, but I'm not sure we have those guys. At least not with Gator and Helm.

Helm hit 31 pts this year, with 0 minutes of power play time, and not put in offensive situations at all. AA had 33 pts with tonnes of PP times and nothing but offensive opportunities. Easy to see how Helm puts in 40 pts every year, with just a tiny amount of time, playing with Zetterberg or Larkin or getting even a little PP time. Obviously he is better suited to the 3rd line and PK, and he is at this point, infinitely more important to our team than lackadaisical AA. Helm won't get us game winning goals, or assists all that often, but he actually competes every night and does lots of little things that don't go on the scoresheet.
 

Winger98

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Helm hit 31 pts this year, with 0 minutes of power play time, and not put in offensive situations at all. AA had 33 pts with tonnes of PP times and nothing but offensive opportunities. Easy to see how Helm puts in 40 pts every year, with just a tiny amount of time, playing with Zetterberg or Larkin or getting even a little PP time. Obviously he is better suited to the 3rd line and PK, and he is at this point, infinitely more important to our team than lackadaisical AA. Helm won't get us game winning goals, or assists all that often, but he actually competes every night and does lots of little things that don't go on the scoresheet.

Helm got between 40 seconds and 1.5 minutes of PPTOI for four seasons in a row and put up a high of seven points. At least once he put up zero points, which I'm not sure how you do if you get 40 seconds of PP time a night for 50+ games. I don't think anyone questions the other stuff he brings but putting up 35 points? He's never done it. Even the other half of it, the 15 goals, he's done only once.

This isn't a huge knock on Helm. I think he can be safely penciled in for ~12 goals and ~25 points. If he gets some luck, he can put up another five or so points on top of that. I just don't see 35 points being a realistic expectation at this point.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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Because cap flexibility is king. It's not to say that these contracts are 100% hurting the rebuild, but the practice of signing yourself to the cap ceiling with contracts at top 6 F/top 2 D $$ for bottom 6 F/bottom pair D type of players is a bad practice to have. Artificially propping up performance by getting a costly, declining veteran who is still more productive than a cheap, up and coming rookie does hurt the rebuild. If Holland goes out and re-signs Green for $8M/2 years this offseason and it keeps Hronek or Cholowski (whoever is next in line) in the minors, you have no problem with that?

Those contracts you're referring to were signed when the team was still trying to compete for the playoffs. That is no longer the case. Holland has already stated sever young players (2-5) are moving onto the roster as early as next season.

There's nothing wrong with Cholowski spending a year in Grand Rapids, either.
 

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