What's Up With Dylan Larkin?

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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It's a message board, though, Kliq - not an academic peer review.

Someone can say Larkin is a 2C at best. That's not exactly an earth-shattering opinion.
Last year he played like a 1C.
But this year's stats look like 2C stats - despite first line, first PP minutes.

I think Larkin is a 1C - by necessity. Not an ideal 1C, though. And probably not a 1C on a good team.
For all the assists he gets, I don't really see him as a classic puck distributing center.
Put I see him as the best player on this team today, so what are you going to do?

I hoped Veleno might be that guy who could become a 1C, but that doesn't seem likely given where he is in D+2 and where Larkin was at the same age.

Saying hes a 2C at best is trolling considering we've seen his best and it was at the level of a first line center already in his young career. At his age, 2C at best implies that hes not even a 2C right now.

I think hes blatantly, ridiculously obviously a 2C right now at least, not at best. Anyone that wants to argue he isnt at the very least a second line center right now are out to lunch.
 

Flowah

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Nov 30, 2009
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Saying hes a 2C at best is trolling considering we've seen his best and it was at the level of a first line center already in his young career. At his age, 2C at best implies that hes not even a 2C right now.

I think hes blatantly, ridiculously obviously a 2C right now at least, not at best. Anyone that wants to argue he isnt at the very least a second line center right now are out to lunch.
Why do you guys keep leaving out a key clause in that guy's post? He specified on a good NHL team.

Is Larkin a top 31 center in the league? I haven't looked around but I'm sure he is. Is he a top15 center in the league? No he's not. You really couldn't name like 10 teams with better centers than Larkin, which would push him to the 2C spot on a "good NHL team?"

Come on guys. At least be honest with the position you're arguing against instead of strawmanning it.
 
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MBH

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Saying hes a 2C at best is trolling considering we've seen his best and it was at the level of a first line center already in his young career. At his age, 2C at best implies that hes not even a 2C right now.

I think hes blatantly, ridiculously obviously a 2C right now at least, not at best. Anyone that wants to argue he isnt at the very least a second line center right now are out to lunch.

Disagreeing with you isn't trolling.
Larkin is having a pretty tough season.

He's playing top line minutes - for sure.
In terms of goal production/60, Larkin ranks 136th.
In points production/60, he ranks 135th.

These are for Centers who've played 250 or more minutes according to Natural State Trick.

His points/60 has fallen from 2.27 to 1.94 to 1.4 over the last 3 years.
His goals/60 are down from .64 and .76 to .53.

It's hard not to see the decline this year.

Obviously, that's just one metric.
And this season is just one season.

My personal belief is that Larkin is ideally a solid 2C on a good or even great team. So it's tough for me to accept that 2C at best is "trolling."
If Larkin is your #1 C, unless you've got a real close 1A/1B situation, you're probably not a very good team.

Last year he played 22 minutes a night. This year he's at 21:04.
That's asking an awful lot of the guy.
 
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kliq

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You missed a key part: "on a good NHL team."

How many centers are ahead of him right now around the league? A lot. On some teams they have 2 centers I'd put ahead of Larkin. So yeah, he'd be a 2C on most of those good teams with better centers. Just off the top of my head: Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Eichel, McDavid, Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Matthews, Seguin, Bergeron, Barkov. I know I haven't named everyone.

I don't see how that compares at all with saying AA is either not an NHL player (who somehow put up 30 goals) or is a Hart candidate. Larkin is a 2C on contenders = realm of possibility. AA is not an NHLer/Hart candidate = insane.

I can see why you would post this after reading my post without any context.

For the record, I agree Larkin is likely a 2C on a contender.
 

Henkka

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I can see why you would post this after reading my post without any context.

For the record, I agree Larkin is likely a 2C on a contender.

Would be interesting to see Larkin with a winger like Marian Hossa in a contender. And winger like Saad/Ladd on the other side. And also interesting to see him having Patrick Kane -level winger on another line.
 

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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Why do you guys keep leaving out a key clause in that guy's post? He specified on a good NHL team.

Is Larkin a top 31 center in the league? I haven't looked around but I'm sure he is. Is he a top15 center in the league? No he's not. You really couldn't name like 10 teams with better centers than Larkin, which would push him to the 2C spot on a "good NHL team?"

Come on guys. At least be honest with the position you're arguing against instead of strawmanning it.

On what good teams is Larkin a 2C at best though? He said at best, implying he isnt even a 2C on a lot of good teams. Even if we want to act like throwing in he isnt a leader wasnt an attempt at a troll job I would like to see what teams hes at best the second line center. Even on a good team, saying at best a 2C means hes more than likely a third line center on a lot of teams. After the season he had last year thats just downright stupid. Hes played at a good 2C level 2 years ago, and had a legit top 20ish season (give or take a couple spots0 as a center in the NHL last year.

Hes the third best center on the pens, leafs, caps and lightning. And honestly anymore with the caps supporting cast, on the same team he probably gives Backstrom a run for his money as the 2C.

He could be arguably the first line center on the Isles, Flames, Columbus, Vegas and Arizona talking about good teams.

Saying hes the 2nd line center at best on good teams is a lie. He has without a doubt solidified himself as a guy who would be a great second line center on almost every team in the NHL. he would be the first line center or part of a 1A/1B combo on several good teams in the NHL. So yeah, saying at best a second line center on a good team then throwing in jabs at not being a winner or a leader is clearly an attempt to troll. Hes playing on probably the worst team in 20 years and I bet will still hit 60 points depsite the team being riddled with injuries and him facing top lines every single night.

Hes not at best a second line center on a good team, hes shown hes a player that is at worst a second line center in the NHL.
 
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Flowah

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He said at best, implying he isnt even a 2C on a lot of good teams.
If he can't be a 1C on a good team, he is LOGICALLY SPEAKING, a 2C at best. Duh?

He'd be a 3C in Washington. Is he slotted above Kuzy and Backstrom? Hell no. How about in Pittsburgh?
Hes not at best a second line center on a good team, hes shown hes a player that is at worst a second line center in the NHL.
He's both.
Even on a good team, saying at best a 2C means hes more than likely a third line center on a lot of teams.

That's a super weird way of reading it.
 
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jkutswings

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According to HSJ's article today, Holland intended to name Larkin captain before this season:

How will Steve Yzerman shape the Detroit Red Wings at trade deadline

"Larkin has been groomed since his rookie season to be the next captain, and the plan under Holland was to make that announcement before the start of this season. Larkin is a local guy (Waterford), and he wants to be the guy who leads the Wings out of the rebuild. Again, unless Yzerman wants someone who he brought on board, Larkin is the favorite to succeed Henrik Zetterberg."
 

haulinbass

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Mar 6, 2014
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Agree that if Larkin is your 1C you are in a lot of trouble unless you have a combination of elite defense, very good wingers, a 2C just as good as Larkin.

Its not easy putting all those things together to overcome not having an elite center.
 

lilidk

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Mar 4, 2008
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Yes Larkin has bad season , his worst as Red Wings, but who doesn't. It could be because we have bad coaching or Yzerman trying do something that I don't understand. It's been 7 coaches got fired, but not the one from NHL worst team. Worst part is that I start cheering for opposite team, that's how bad thing are here.
 

Inspiration

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Jul 10, 2013
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Yes Larkin has bad season , his worst as Red Wings, but who doesn't. It could be because we have bad coaching or Yzerman trying do something that I don't understand. It's been 7 coaches got fired, but not the one from NHL worst team. Worst part is that I start cheering for opposite team, that's how bad thing are here.
This is nowhere near Larkin's worst season as a Red Wing (see '16-'17).
 

golffuul

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Oct 24, 2011
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I don't even bother looking at this season for most of our team, because of all the injuries. Larkin being forced to center folks like Abdelkader, Glendening, and Helm on a regular basis is not even fair for a team that is struggling to score goals. Larkin's face-off % is already amazing at 52+% and being on one of the worst teams in NHL history is even more incredible. Suffice it to say that Larkin has had to reel his offensive game in, just to try and hold the other teams' best lines from scoring on every trip down the ice.

Larkin gets an easy pass from me, this season, and if he can learn to bring the team out of this maelstrom, then everyone will point to this year as the year he earned the "C".
 
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Mlotek

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On what good teams is Larkin a 2C at best though? He said at best, implying he isnt even a 2C on a lot of good teams. Even if we want to act like throwing in he isnt a leader wasnt an attempt at a troll job I would like to see what teams hes at best the second line center. Even on a good team, saying at best a 2C means hes more than likely a third line center on a lot of teams. After the season he had last year thats just downright stupid. Hes played at a good 2C level 2 years ago, and had a legit top 20ish season (give or take a couple spots0 as a center in the NHL last year.

Hes the third best center on the pens, leafs, caps and lightning. And honestly anymore with the caps supporting cast, on the same team he probably gives Backstrom a run for his money as the 2C.

He could be arguably the first line center on the Isles, Flames, Columbus, Vegas and Arizona talking about good teams.

Saying hes the 2nd line center at best on good teams is a lie. He has without a doubt solidified himself as a guy who would be a great second line center on almost every team in the NHL. he would be the first line center or part of a 1A/1B combo on several good teams in the NHL. So yeah, saying at best a second line center on a good team then throwing in jabs at not being a winner or a leader is clearly an attempt to troll. Hes playing on probably the worst team in 20 years and I bet will still hit 60 points depsite the team being riddled with injuries and him facing top lines every single night.

Hes not at best a second line center on a good team, hes shown hes a player that is at worst a second line center in the NHL.


So here is a list of some top NHL teams and their top 1 or 2 centers. The question is, which team do you slot Larkin in over their current #1C.



Boston - Do you play Larkin over Bergeron?
Tampa - I don't even know who their top centers are, Stamkos and Point? Even Cirelli is performing at Larkin's level this year.
Florida - Do you play Larkin over Barkov?
Toronto - Do you play Larkin over Tavares or Matthews?
Washington - Do you play Larkin over Backstrom or Kuznetsov?
Pittsburgh - Do you play Larkin over Crosby and Malkin?
NYI - Do you play Larkin over Barzal?
St. Louis - Do you play Larkin over O'Reilly?
Colorado - Do you play Larkin over Mackinon?
Dallas - Do you play Larkin over Seguin?
Winnipeg - Do you play Larkin over Scheiffle?
Edmonton - Do you play Larkin over Draisaitl or McDavid?
Vegas - Do you play Larkin over W. Karlsson



This exercise is NOT a knock on Larkin, it is to demonstrate why some people believe Larkin is a #2C on good teams.
 

Claypool

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Anyone saying this team doesn't have elite talent, or that it's current talent is playing above where they should be, should not argue against tanking.
 

Pavels Dog

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So here is a list of some top NHL teams and their top 1 or 2 centers. The question is, which team do you slot Larkin in over their current #1C.



Boston - Do you play Larkin over Bergeron?
Tampa - I don't even know who their top centers are, Stamkos and Point? Even Cirelli is performing at Larkin's level this year.
Florida - Do you play Larkin over Barkov?
Toronto - Do you play Larkin over Tavares or Matthews?
Washington - Do you play Larkin over Backstrom or Kuznetsov?
Pittsburgh - Do you play Larkin over Crosby and Malkin?
NYI - Do you play Larkin over Barzal?
St. Louis - Do you play Larkin over O'Reilly?
Colorado - Do you play Larkin over Mackinon?
Dallas - Do you play Larkin over Seguin?
Winnipeg - Do you play Larkin over Scheiffle?
Edmonton - Do you play Larkin over Draisaitl or McDavid?
Vegas - Do you play Larkin over W. Karlsson



This exercise is NOT a knock on Larkin, it is to demonstrate why some people believe Larkin is a #2C on good teams.
Mckinnon was a 50 point player when Colorado was a team on Detroit's level.

And tbh you can pick out several of those names and ask the same question... how many guys do you take O'Reilly over? How many do you take Toews over? Those are cup winners. It's not all about the point-scoring capacity of your #1C.

That said we just need to see how things shake out. We need elite talent, whether it's elite wingers around Larkin/Veleno or an elite center ahead of Larkin/Veleno matters less imo.
 

HIFE

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I will say the same thing about Larkin that I said about AA. Both of these guys started the season injured and never really got back to their 18/19 form. At their absolute bests this season they are well, well off their best play from 18/19 and I think you can link it almost exclusively to a lack of explosiveness in their skating. Something is wrong with these two physically (personally my money is on groin issues). Your skating doesn't fall off a cliff at their ages absent injury.

Yeah it's a shame. Clearly they've both been struggling with something physical. There's no other reason why the (possibly) 2nd and 3rd fastest hockey players in the world are showing only above average speed.

I hope Larkin takes a break from the World Championships this year and gets a good rest instead. Next season will be an important transition, we need Larks 100%. I'd rather they shut him down now but we know that's not happening.
 

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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So here is a list of some top NHL teams and their top 1 or 2 centers. The question is, which team do you slot Larkin in over their current #1C.



Boston - Do you play Larkin over Bergeron?
Tampa - I don't even know who their top centers are, Stamkos and Point? Even Cirelli is performing at Larkin's level this year.
Florida - Do you play Larkin over Barkov?
Toronto - Do you play Larkin over Tavares or Matthews?
Washington - Do you play Larkin over Backstrom or Kuznetsov?
Pittsburgh - Do you play Larkin over Crosby and Malkin?
NYI - Do you play Larkin over Barzal?
St. Louis - Do you play Larkin over O'Reilly?
Colorado - Do you play Larkin over Mackinon?
Dallas - Do you play Larkin over Seguin?
Winnipeg - Do you play Larkin over Scheiffle?
Edmonton - Do you play Larkin over Draisaitl or McDavid?
Vegas - Do you play Larkin over W. Karlsson



This exercise is NOT a knock on Larkin, it is to demonstrate why some people believe Larkin is a #2C on good teams.

I took more issue with saying at best hes a 2C on a good team. At best is what seemed like a knock on his game. Hes a clear 2C on 90% of the teams in the league whether theyre good or not, hes a 1C on some other teams as well. Hes having a bad season this year but hes on a horrendous team that got a bunch of injuries on top of already being projected dead last but hes as talented as a couple guys on this list I think. Saying Cirelli is performing comparably to Larkin this year is just blatantly stat watching. Stick Larkin over on Tampa and hes an 80 point player.

I think he would arguably be the 1C on the Islanders. Barzal isnt the all around player that Larkin is and the offense isnt all that far off overall. Yes Barzal had his big rookie year as a 2C but since then and moving forward I think they impact games on around the same level. Larkin being the more well rounded player and Barzal having better offense. I would take Larkin over William Karlsson for sure though. Honestly, a lot of people arent going to agree with me here but I think Larkin can play at the same level as Backstrom as well in Washington if he has those players around him. I dont expect a lot of people to agree with that one and its not really a hill I'll die on but I watch a lot of Washington and I think if Larkin gets to feed the puck to Ovechkin hes going to be considered a Backstrom level player.

But yes, looking at the Islanders and Golden Knights I could easily say that Larkin could arguably be the first line center on a good team and use those 2 as examples. Hes definitely not the 2C at best on those teams and theyre good. Larkin this year is on the worst team in 20 years at this point but last year on a bad team he had a bonafide first line center type of season. But like I said, I might just be taking issue with the words"at best" way too much. To me that sounds like a person is saying hes actually more of a third line center on a good team which is complete bs. If Larkin is your clear number 2 center youre really set at the center position and he would be one of the best 2Cs in the league. Its not at best a 2C.
 

Borlag

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I'd like to see what we have in our forwards when our back end is even mediocre in comparison to the rest of the league. Right now our defense pretty much can't defend, nor can they really support in the offensive side either. Start by fixing that and then we can see what we really have in terms of forwards and even goalie. Even if we'd be dead last as the worst defensive team around, at least get guys in that could be considered as someone who should play their position, and not a pairing or two too high.
 

Hockey Know it all

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Mar 10, 2019
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What’s wrong with Larkin? NOTHING, he just isn’t as good as people made him out to be.
That is the truth and most logical wings fans would agree. Most people only liked him(some do still) because he’s “homegrown”.
For the value where we selected him, he’s been good. For what people think he can become, that’s not realistic.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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Ehhh... Larkin isn't our problem. The team depth is.

Had a bad season start, thanks to early injury, but 11 points in last 12 games. Points in 10 of latest 12 games. Very consistent scoring. But when others won't help, we'll lose. He'll still fight and will be the consistent self.

Only our bad power-play will keep him under a rate of not scoring over a point/game.

EDIT:

5+7 = 12 points in last 12 games.

EDIT2:

5+8 = 13 points in last 12 games.
 
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KillerMillerTime

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Saying hes a 2C at best is trolling considering we've seen his best and it was at the level of a first line center already in his young career. At his age, 2C at best implies that hes not even a 2C right now.

I think hes blatantly, ridiculously obviously a 2C right now at least, not at best. Anyone that wants to argue he isnt at the very least a second line center right now are out to lunch.

Larkin last year is w/o question #1C. I have watched a lot
of Larkin's NHL career even though I am a B's fan and no doubt in my mind he is playing injured. Put him with Boston and in 2021-22 he is the #1C and centering Pastrnak and all of a sudden he is more impactful than
any center beside McDavid, Crosby,Malkin, Eichel, McKinnon, Matthews, Point and Barkov.
 
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TheOtherOne

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Jan 2, 2010
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I think people forget that IF Larkin were the #1C on a contender, he would have a really damn good winger to play with. How many assists would he have on a line and top PP unit with a guy like Pastrnak, Kucherov, Ovechkin? It's a shame we can't look at a parallel universe to find out.
 
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