What's the underlying problem?

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

The bottom six has been on the ice when goals are going in the net and assisting on said goals.

How many goals have the bottom six scored the past three games?

 

[SEALBound]

What is your opinion on the Penguins being better at home with the Sullivan having the last change?

That shouldn't matter much too be honest. At least, not to the extent that it's sinking a coach's ability to coach and win a game. With Sullivan...boy I don't know.

At 5 on 5 this year, Evgeni Malkin has 0 goals, 2 assists, and is a -3 in 8 games.

In the same 8 games at 5 on 5, Sidney Crosby has 0 goals, 2 assists, and is a -4.

When favorite player is every bit as anemic at 5 on 5 as the lazy Russian Man Bad, talent may not be as issue, but productivity certainly is . . . and it starts at the very top.

BTW, Letang at 5 on 5 has 0 goals, 2 assists, and is only a -2, so technically he's the least noxious of the three headed shit show.

Yeah, scoring 5v5 is certainly a problem, especially from our stars but as far as the top 6 goes, it's not like the talent isn't there. If we were flanking Sid with Brian Gibbons and Conor Sheary, I could understand. If Malkin was being flanked by Cooke and Kennedy, I could understand. But the fact that they both surrounded by good sets of wings no matter how you divvy them up, it signals larger issues. Plural. Like I said elsewhere I think it's a combo of their decline, team structure, how Sid and Geno drive the play in the o-zone, and then what the wings do in response to all of that.

I just start to wonder how long Geno and Sid (in particular) is willing to let that run before they wave the white flag on themselves.

 

[Gurglesons]

But you said Yohe assured us today that Sid is trying, and it's just Russian Man Bad and Stupid But Pretty Frenchie who are the issues in terms of individual play.

Yohe is what people think Rossi is.

Rossi is a good reporter, he's just an awful writer and was likely a thespian in high school.

 

[vodeni]

At 5 on 5 this year, Evgeni Malkin has 0 goals, 2 assists, and is a -3 in 8 games.

In the same 8 games at 5 on 5, Sidney Crosby has 0 goals, 2 assists, and is a -4.

When favorite player is every bit as anemic at 5 on 5 as the lazy Russian Man Bad, talent may not be as issue, but productivity certainly is . . . and it starts at the very top.

BTW, Letang at 5 on 5 has 0 goals, 2 assists, and is only a -2, so technically he's the least noxious of the three headed shit show.

neither one is setting the world on fire, but the numbers are what the numbers are...

 

[KIRK]

View attachment 390053
neither one is setting the world on fire, but the numbers are what the numbers are...

Analytics say Crosby sucks and Malkin sucks worse. Production says the both suck. There isn't enough alcohol to complete the eye test for either sober. I can agree with that . . .

 

[Gurglesons]

View attachment 390053
neither one is setting the world on fire, but the numbers are what the numbers are...

Crosby's xGF% shows he should be producing. Malkin is just awful right now.

 

[KIRK]

That shouldn't matter much too be honest. At least, not to the extent that it's sinking a coach's ability to coach and win a game. With Sullivan...boy I don't know.



Yeah, scoring 5v5 is certainly a problem, especially from our stars but as far as the top 6 goes, it's not like the talent isn't there. If we were flanking Sid with Brian Gibbons and Conor Sheary, I could understand. If Malkin was being flanked by Cooke and Kennedy, I could understand. But the fact that they both surrounded by good sets of wings no matter how you divvy them up, it signals larger issues. Plural. Like I said elsewhere I think it's a combo of their decline, team structure, how Sid and Geno drive the play in the o-zone, and then what the wings do in response to all of that.

I just start to wonder how long Geno and Sid (in particular) is willing to let that run before they wave the white flag on themselves.

The point here is that it isn't just one of them. And it's not just both of them. It's pretty much everyone. One trade doesn't fix that. Sullivan 'getting tougher' no longer matters. They're a dead team skating until the coaching change, and from there they can figure out what can be salvaged and what isn't part of the solution (and as I've said a couple of times, that MAY include Malkin, but there's no way to know without a fresh set of eyes and a fresh voice behind the bench, just like 2015). It's a shame, but this is the circle of life for a coach in hockey, and Sullivan's in Pittsburgh is at an end. Only question is when it becomes official and whether it's for the better or for the worse.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

The problem the past few years is a combination of things:

The veteran talent on this team gets complacent with coaching around the 3 year mark.

There is a lack of young talented fresh legs that are hungry injected into the lineup to give energy and enthusiasm to the rest of the team.

Talent is highly concentrated in certain players and when they aren't on the team lacks others to turn it on and pick them up. They are very top heavy and have been at their best when they've had a strong 3rd line to wear down the other team and give them competitive advantage against the other team's defensive pairings.

 

[vodeni]

Analytics say Crosby sucks and Malkin sucks worse. Production says the both suck. There isn't enough alcohol to complete the eye test for either sober. I can agree with that . . .

no question. Sid's line has OK underlying numbers, its jake who's killing this line, the old Jake as you or someone else mentioned used to have ability to get lost...and score, also he was underrated forchecker, none of which he exhibits any more.
anyways...they suck as a sum of all shit...from Jarry to Janko....when that happens we all agree you can't just bench the entire team, you change the coaching staff...Move one...hire a f***ing PP coach with full authority, than go from there

 

[KIRK]

Crosby's xGF% shows he should be producing. Malkin is just awful right now.

I must have misread it then.

Either way, there's a reason analytics are limited in terms of their helpfulness, because neither passes the eye test or the smell test or the production test at 5 on 5 any way you slice it.

Only times I remember it being this bad with Crosby are right before coaching changes.

 

[vodeni]

Crosby's xGF% shows he should be producing. Malkin is just awful right now.

Sid is not good one on one...he is also moving to Joe Thornton teritory, however Jake is the one who's killing this line in terms of production...pre injury Jake and we don't have this conversation

 

[KIRK]

The problem the past few years is a combination of things:

The veteran talent on this team gets complacent with coaching around the 3 year mark.

There is a lack of young talented fresh legs that are hungry injected into the lineup to give energy and enthusiasm to the rest of the team.

Talent is highly concentrated in certain players and when they aren't on the team lacks others to turn it on and pick them up. They are very top heavy and have been at their best when they've had a strong 3rd line to wear down the other team and give them competitive advantage against the other team's defensive pairings.

Jules, kudos to you on the second point, the lack of young fresh legs. And by extension I'd say the energy and attitude that comes with finally getting your shot. You saw that in 2016 when Sullivan's gang came with him and then 2017 with Jake. Last three years? Outside of Marino, not at all.

 

[KIRK]

no question. Sid's line has OK underlying numbers, its jake who's killing this line, the old Jake as you or someone else mentioned used to have ability to get lost...and score, also he was underrated forchecker, none of which he exhibits any more.
anyways...they suck as a sum of all shit...from Jarry to Janko....when that happens we all agree you can't just bench the entire team, you change the coaching staff...Move one...hire a f***ing PP coach with full authority, than go from there

You need someone from the outside. Fresh eyes. Fresh voice. No biases. Sullivan may have started 2015 in WBS, but for all intents and purposes, he was from the outside. Similar with Bylsma. Same for Therrien (different situation, but he was a 180 from anything that anyone who was with them to start 2015 had seen.

Fair to Sullivan? Probably not, but as almost everyone recognizes, such is the way of things throughout the league when everyone from top to bottom looks this out of sorts.

 

[SEALBound]

The point here is that it isn't just one of them. And it's not just both of them. It's pretty much everyone. One trade doesn't fix that. Sullivan 'getting tougher' no longer matters. They're a dead team skating until the coaching change, and from there they can figure out what can be salvaged and what isn't part of the solution (and as I've said a couple of times, that MAY include Malkin, but there's no way to know without a fresh set of eyes and a fresh voice behind the bench, just like 2015). It's a shame, but this is the circle of life for a coach in hockey, and Sullivan's in Pittsburgh is at an end. Only question is when it becomes official and whether it's for the better or for the worse.

I agree with you. The only thing I was getting at, more so, was that I don't think a simple coaching change fixes the issue - or rather, I don't think a change in coaching alone turns us back into a cup contender. If you take the team right now with the structure in place, I don't think an extra 10% of effort from a jazzed up Sid or Geno is going to overcome the issues that we see. I think it's a multi-tiered problem and multi-tiered solutions are needed. Coaching change, yes. With that coaching change needs to come structure, both offensively and defensively. With that structure has to come a little bit of submission by Sid and Geno to that system and structure in pursuit of the greater good. If a good system is implemented, Jake and Rust should play to that system, not necessarily what Sid always wants. Right now, Jake and Rusty are passengers reading and reacting to Sid and if they don't do well, Sid tries to straighten them out. I'm suggesting that style of play is no longer sustainable so Sid and Geno, more than anyone, need to adopt a new system and style of play. One that accepts their regression and looks to cover the spread by communal efforts. Maybe then we get the team to start playing as a 5 man unit. Not 1 center, two passenger wings, and 2 dmen that watch and help.

Sullivan is not the man to do that. Honeslty...I wish Quinnville was available. Perhaps even Gallant after showing his stuff in Vegas with a team of riffraffs.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'll say again: any "system" that is predicated on Sid and Geno being able to play at a level like they did when they were in their 20's in order for it to be effective, and which completely falls flat if they are a step slower than in the past, is a flawed "system".

That's where my issue with Sullivan is. He seems to stick to a system that requires every player to play a certain way 100% of the time, with no deviation. He doesn't seem to make adjustments for situations where either the players aren't playing at a certain speed or can't play at that speed for a full 60 minutes.

 

[KIRK]

I agree with you. The only thing I was getting at, more so, was that I don't think a simple coaching change fixes the issue - or rather, I don't think a change in coaching alone turns us back into a cup contender. If you take the team right now with the structure in place, I don't think an extra 10% of effort from a jazzed up Sid or Geno is going to overcome the issues that we see. I think it's a multi-tiered problem and multi-tiered solutions are needed. Coaching change, yes. With that coaching change needs to come structure, both offensively and defensively. With that structure has to come a little bit of submission by Sid and Geno to that system and structure in pursuit of the greater good. If a good system is implemented, Jake and Rust should play to that system, not necessarily what Sid always wants. Right now, Jake and Rusty are passengers reading and reacting to Sid and if they don't do well, Sid tries to straighten them out. I'm suggesting that style of play is no longer sustainable so Sid and Geno, more than anyone, need to adopt a new system and style of play. One that accepts their regression and looks to cover the spread by communal efforts. Maybe then we get the team to start playing as a 5 man unit. Not 1 center, two passenger wings, and 2 dmen that watch and help.

Sullivan is not the man to do that. Honeslty...I wish Quinnville was available. Perhaps even Gallant after showing his stuff in Vegas with a team of riffraffs.

Fair point, which is why I've said a few times that a coaching change doesn't guarantee things go in the right direction, but it's a prerequisite for there to be a chance of it.

In the end, though, whether it's enough or not, you need to do it as a first step to identifying what can be fixed and what isn't part of a solution.

 

[JRS91]

Our talent is fine. The offense issues aren’t because of talent.

Our bottom-six has been non-existent in the playoffs for the past three years.

 

[KIRK]

Our bottom-six has been non-existent in the playoffs for the past three years.

Only fair since our top 6 has been non-existent in the playoffs for the last two.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Jules, kudos to you on the second point, the lack of young fresh legs. And by extension I'd say the energy and attitude that comes with finally getting your shot. You saw that in 2016 when Sullivan's gang came with him and then 2017 with Jake. Last three years? Outside of Marino, not at all.

Exactly. I remember watching Sid go through the motions and then when Sheary, Jake, and Rust came up he picked up his game to a new speed because the young guys were outskating him.

That's one reason I liked the pickup of Kapanen. On the other hand this is why I was hoping one of Legare or Poulin would make the team. I think if we're keeping Sid/Geno for the long haul, we're going to have to get a few young hungry guys who don't want to go back to WBS to pick up the team.

We also need to build a third line that is young/hungry to wear the other team down even if they aren't scoring. This team really needs Blueger to step up and take it to the next level or somehow find a 3C who can do that.

The defense of this team is a mess in itself. We need to quit making shit deals like the Hornqvist one by getting out of one issue and getting into another. Gambling on talented players that are problems are still gambles and why do that, sign Ceci, and others when you have POJ close to staying up or use that cap space on a legitimate quality impact player instead of getting multiple bodies whose cap space adds up and could've been a legit player.

The problem is the next GM needs to do some surgery and there aren't many tools for them to work with. He's gotta hit on a trade, young guy we have, and/or replace the coach in the mean time because the way this team plays/constructed this isn't it and management isn't going to want to waste a year of Crosby/Malkin.

 

[66-30-33]

We definatly need a new voice, Sullivans breath stinks now so new coach must carry breath mints.

 

[Lukin1978]

I don't see many positives watching this team they just look lazy their compete level just isn't there.

 

[Pens x]

First Ferragamo shoes, now this.

Second look at @Pens x?

cc: @ColePens, @Honour Over Glory

Maybe @ColePens will let me start liking posts again since that privilege was revoked.

 

[KIRK]

Maybe Cole will let me start liking posts again since that privilege was revoked.

I'd think after yesterday's Ferragamo shoes revelation that it would've been done already.

 

[DatGuy]

Star players are not stars anymore, but they are paid like ones....it’s pretty simple, no?

 

[EightyOne]

Star players are not stars anymore, but they are paid like ones....it’s pretty simple, no?

Huh?