What's the difference? Phaneuf or Barker by the numbers....
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I see Phaneif being a better prospect for the Flames right now. They have the defenseman who can skate and move with the puck, and stickhandle with Leopold, than to a lesser extent Lydman and Ference. Phaneuf for the Flames replaces gautheir huge hits BUT also adds the big shot for the PP that we have been lacking since we traded Morris. With Phaneuf we absically fill 2 holes with 1 hell of a player.
Regher, Leopold, Phaneuf look pretty damn good to me for the future.
Regher, Leopold, Phaneuf look pretty damn good to me for the future.
Remember 18 is pretty young in the development of a D-man.Phaneuf really jumped
as a prospect at the world juniors last year. I think we should give Barker the same
opportunity before we underestimate his potential.All three players talked about
here should be great players.We'll know in a few years if one of these guys is
going to be head and shoulders above the others but my guess is that all three
will have top flight careers and that there will only be a marginal difference in how
good they'll be.
as a prospect at the world juniors last year. I think we should give Barker the same
opportunity before we underestimate his potential.All three players talked about
here should be great players.We'll know in a few years if one of these guys is
going to be head and shoulders above the others but my guess is that all three
will have top flight careers and that there will only be a marginal difference in how
good they'll be.
pei fan said:
Shea Weber has the same size, just as mean, hits just as hard and as often, and puts up similar points.
edit
(From reports I've heard. I cannot watch Weber play, so my opinions are only that of a true homer)
Yup. Only a Nashville fan would put Shea Weber on the same level as Dion Phaneuf.triggrman said:
MrMastodonFarm said:
Ok, tell me why he isn't?
Oh, wait, because scouts around the world have said Dion is the best.....
Having see both Dion Phaneuf and Cam Barker play. And and also having been the computer tech that reformatted the laptop for the Lethbridge Hurricanes Coach when he was gassed last year. When I discussed this with coach Makela he said that in his experience in the WHL (which is more than any of us here) he said Phaneuf we at another level as far as dmen in the WHL were concerned. So that would include Barker.
But really you are comparing two different things. It would be the same as comparing a finesse forward with a power forward. Phaneuf is a power dman. He is aggressive and powerful in every aspect of the game, skating, shooting, hitting etc... with Barker and Bouwmeester you are looking at more finesse types of players. That isn't to say they have no physical game it just isn't as well developed as Phaneuf.
I would say the big difference for me is that Barker has found his stride as far as consistency goes. He shows up most nights but on the odd night he just is not a factor. Phaneuf is a factor every night because if he isn't scoring he is hitting. That consistency will come though. With Bouwmeester you can't compare him to Phaneuf at all they are two different players entirely.
So in the end it is like asking what type of ice cream is better chocalate or strawberry....it is more about what you like not about which one is better but which one you prefer. In the calgary system with sutter as the coach that is gonna be Phaneuf every time in the Florida system it is Bouwmeester.
Only time will tell where each will end up.
But really you are comparing two different things. It would be the same as comparing a finesse forward with a power forward. Phaneuf is a power dman. He is aggressive and powerful in every aspect of the game, skating, shooting, hitting etc... with Barker and Bouwmeester you are looking at more finesse types of players. That isn't to say they have no physical game it just isn't as well developed as Phaneuf.
I would say the big difference for me is that Barker has found his stride as far as consistency goes. He shows up most nights but on the odd night he just is not a factor. Phaneuf is a factor every night because if he isn't scoring he is hitting. That consistency will come though. With Bouwmeester you can't compare him to Phaneuf at all they are two different players entirely.
So in the end it is like asking what type of ice cream is better chocalate or strawberry....it is more about what you like not about which one is better but which one you prefer. In the calgary system with sutter as the coach that is gonna be Phaneuf every time in the Florida system it is Bouwmeester.
Only time will tell where each will end up.
bertld said:
Well just my opinion, but i dont' think its really that they are so greatly different. I mean they play different, but does that mean we can't compare lidstrom to lets say rob blake or chris pronger? Obviously jbo is different than lidstrom, blake and pronger. But the comparison that lidstrom plays a much smoother game than blake and pronger. So are you saying you can't compare those guys? I certainlly think you can. Pronger is the most dominant out of the three. Lidstrom is the most consistent and blake is the worst out of the 3. Personally i'd take lidstrom, but pronger comes AWFUL close.
So why can't we compare phaneuf and bouwmeester? Sure bouwmeester is more finesse, but we have seen bouwmeester put up fantastic hits along with smooth beautiful skating plays. To me i pick bouwmeester because i think he has a higher celing and is already vastly far ahead even when throwing in age.
No I am not suggesting that you can't compare them at all but they are vastly different in style of play. That will effect any comparison you make. For instance I could say that Scott Stevens is no better a dman than Andy Delmore because their offensive stats from the past three seasons are very comparable. It would be a ridiculous argument but I could make it.
My point is that when you are looking at vastly different styles of play it is hard to apply the comparables to them. If you or your team wants a top end physical dmen with a hard shot then you take Phaneuf if you want a guy who is more dynamic offensively but isn't up to Phaneuf in the defensive aspect or the physical aspect you take Barker. Again when comparing them the difference between may actally be quite trivial. Phaneuf for instance has a better shot on the PP than either Barker or Bouwmeester and very likely will get more goals than either at the NHL level because of that. But he probably won't put up as many points because he doesn't have the same first pass ability.
Though I would guess a lot of the people that want to make this comparison are not from the WHL area and have not seen much of Phaneuf or Barker play, so than the argument will degenerate into "well this is what I heard" or "this is what I read" or "some one one the message board said this" which is more about trying to justify your favourite rather than making the comparison.
And yes Bouwmeester had leveled some hard hits. But I saw Phil Housley throw the occasion hard hit as well, though they were few and far between. There is a difference between hitting being a part of your game like Phaneuf or Scott Stevens and coming up with the occasion hit. Bouwmeester is not known around the league for his ability to hit whether you want to admit it or not.
My point is that when you are looking at vastly different styles of play it is hard to apply the comparables to them. If you or your team wants a top end physical dmen with a hard shot then you take Phaneuf if you want a guy who is more dynamic offensively but isn't up to Phaneuf in the defensive aspect or the physical aspect you take Barker. Again when comparing them the difference between may actally be quite trivial. Phaneuf for instance has a better shot on the PP than either Barker or Bouwmeester and very likely will get more goals than either at the NHL level because of that. But he probably won't put up as many points because he doesn't have the same first pass ability.
Though I would guess a lot of the people that want to make this comparison are not from the WHL area and have not seen much of Phaneuf or Barker play, so than the argument will degenerate into "well this is what I heard" or "this is what I read" or "some one one the message board said this" which is more about trying to justify your favourite rather than making the comparison.
And yes Bouwmeester had leveled some hard hits. But I saw Phil Housley throw the occasion hard hit as well, though they were few and far between. There is a difference between hitting being a part of your game like Phaneuf or Scott Stevens and coming up with the occasion hit. Bouwmeester is not known around the league for his ability to hit whether you want to admit it or not.
Sammy said:
Yeh, if only we could talk to scouts around the world.
it was all sarcastic, no I do not believe Weber is equal to Dion, but he's not as far off as Flames fans would like to think.
lol, please... this is more hockey fans then Flames fans. Do you ever sit up at night and wonder why you happen to think so highly of Shea Weber.. could it be that he was selected by your favourite team?triggrman said:
Did it ever occur to you there is a reason why Dion Phaneuf was selected to Team Canada last year, then was named to the tournament all star team, and was named WHL defencemen of the year, and then CHL defencemen of the year, while Shea Weber got diddlesquat.
Phaneuf is an elite prospect, Shea Weber is not, not even close. You saying they are close is like me saying Tim Ramholt is equal to Ryan Suter.
Oh, they are not equal, but Ramholts not as far off as Preds fans would like to think.MrMastodonFarm said:
bertld said:
ah i see what you mean. Well as for phaneuf scoring more goals? I don't think so. He doesn't have the puck skills of bouwmeester or the pinching sense, which i think will hold him back. A big shot doesn't always guarantee loads of goals.
As for bouwmeester's hits? Yeah, but my point was that he is developing and learning how to throw harder hits more consistently. Showing he can beat you smoothly and he's learning how to punish you as well.
People said the same of MacInnis when he came into the league. You can learn position you can learn better passing but some guys can shoot and other can't.
For instance though I am a flames fan and I don't speak for them all or even any part of them, most see Jordan Leopold as our savvy puck passing offensive dman with offensive skill. Too me Leopold is very underwelming. It doesn't matter that he can pass on the power play cause he can't shoot so the opposing players just pressure him at the point. When he does shoot it is rarely on net and has little to no power. Phaneuf on the other hand can't be pressured at the point because if you do he will shoot the hell out of the puck and he gets the puck through ALOT and is very accurate. Phaneuf will score more goals than the other two. It is the nature of the NHL now most goals scored by dman are on the power play.
Phaneufs offensive game has developed much faster than Bouwmeesters physical game. But I think it just comes down to the fact that people in florida will be thrilled to have Bouwmeester for years to come ( I see him as a Wade Redden type with better offense and thats a compliment) I see Phaneuf as more an Ed Jovonovski type guy with slightly less offense do to poorer passing ability. Though you have to give Bouwmeester the edge at this point because he is in the NHL already but I would definitely give Phaneuf the edge over Barker at this point but the difference in every category are miniscule.
For instance though I am a flames fan and I don't speak for them all or even any part of them, most see Jordan Leopold as our savvy puck passing offensive dman with offensive skill. Too me Leopold is very underwelming. It doesn't matter that he can pass on the power play cause he can't shoot so the opposing players just pressure him at the point. When he does shoot it is rarely on net and has little to no power. Phaneuf on the other hand can't be pressured at the point because if you do he will shoot the hell out of the puck and he gets the puck through ALOT and is very accurate. Phaneuf will score more goals than the other two. It is the nature of the NHL now most goals scored by dman are on the power play.
Phaneufs offensive game has developed much faster than Bouwmeesters physical game. But I think it just comes down to the fact that people in florida will be thrilled to have Bouwmeester for years to come ( I see him as a Wade Redden type with better offense and thats a compliment) I see Phaneuf as more an Ed Jovonovski type guy with slightly less offense do to poorer passing ability. Though you have to give Bouwmeester the edge at this point because he is in the NHL already but I would definitely give Phaneuf the edge over Barker at this point but the difference in every category are miniscule.
I dunno where you watch hockey but you got it all backwards. If a guys is a good puck handler/passer what generally happens is the defensive team likes to cut off his passing lanes & not pressure him cause they will get burnt. Conversly, with a shooter on the point you generally try to pressure him cause you cant/shouldnt give him time to let it go from the point.bertld said:
There are all sorts of guys who can pound it from the point, but really arnt that effective back there cause they dont have the puck skills to do anything else so they just get pressured & cant do anything about it.
I have not seen Barker, only seen Phaneufs WJC, and Jbo at the NHL and WC.
But Ive always been hearing...
JBO=Pronger style
Phaneuf=Stevens Style
Barker=Blake/Brewer style
whose style do you prefer?
But Ive always been hearing...
JBO=Pronger style
Phaneuf=Stevens Style
Barker=Blake/Brewer style
whose style do you prefer?
bruins4777 said:
Quite often a huge, accurate shot from the point on the PP will net a ton of PP goals. IE - Souray. The guys hands are average at best but his shot is unbelievable and look at last year as an example. He doesn't need top notch puck handling hands to shoot the puck, just like Phaneuf. Phaneuf will have a guy like leopold (great hands) feeding him the puck and setting him up.
Senor Rational said:
In their primes, I take Stevens. In all those defenseman in their prime, Stevens has had the biggest impact.
I have spent 20 years watching Al MacInnnis playing. And when you have a heavy shot like he does it backs the pker off the point. If no one on the point can shot accurately you just make the dmen pass the but between them which is easily accomplished when you play the box on the pk. It would make it necessary to have an effective player on the half boards (like Marcus Naslund) and there aren't a lot of them around. MacInnis never needed to be an excellent passer, he is good at it and so is Phaneuf granted poorer at passing than Barker and Bouwmeester but still not awful. Phaneuf will get more goals on the powerplay then Barker or Bouwmeester because of his shot. Leopold, Lydman or Ramholt will be the Suter to Phaneufs, MacInnis.
Believe after watching the Flames have one of the most horrendous powerplays in the league for at least a half decade I think I can safely say that having the big shooter on the point if he is accurate gives the defence more room on the powerplay as long as he gets it off quickly enough. Phaneufs offensive game is overshadowed by his defense and physical play and is often underestimated.
Believe after watching the Flames have one of the most horrendous powerplays in the league for at least a half decade I think I can safely say that having the big shooter on the point if he is accurate gives the defence more room on the powerplay as long as he gets it off quickly enough. Phaneufs offensive game is overshadowed by his defense and physical play and is often underestimated.
Since Phaneuf's shot is being discussed, I have to mention that I don't think MacInnis is a good comparison in terms of shot. It's not the power of his shot that makes it so effective as it's probably low 90s in velocity. But his accuracy and quickness of release are what make it a good tool.
Phaneufs shot is comparable. When talking to the ex-coach of the Lethbridge Hurricanes he compared Phaneuf and Brent Seabrook who plays for the Hurricanes. He says Phaneuf just seems to have the ability to get his shot through. He said some dmen can't do that and that it was a talent.
Phaneuf probably doesn't have as hard of a shot because few do but he does have a very good shot it is also very accurate as his 11 goals in 18 games can attest.
I am not comparing Phaneuf overall game to MacInnis just that he will likely score more goals than Barker at the NHL level because of his prowess as the shooter on the powerplay, while likely having fewer points than Barker overall.
Phaneuf probably doesn't have as hard of a shot because few do but he does have a very good shot it is also very accurate as his 11 goals in 18 games can attest.
I am not comparing Phaneuf overall game to MacInnis just that he will likely score more goals than Barker at the NHL level because of his prowess as the shooter on the powerplay, while likely having fewer points than Barker overall.
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