What's going on in the US? Part 8 [Mod note in OP]

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bleedblue1223

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Isn’t that because obese people often have other health issues connected to their being obese (like: type 2 diabetes, hypertension, etc.) which are known to make Covid 19 symptoms worse? It’s kind of common sense that being grossly overweight is unhealthy.
I’m interested to see if there is a more concerted effort by governments to promote healthy weight, especially now we see how Covid takes its toll on obese people. Sadly, our culture has developed this “magic pill” attitude towards health, and when something so terrible as SARS Cov 2 hits us, and there is no “magic pill” we see the disastrous consequences.
That would be my logical assumption.
 

Mick Riddleton

“A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.”
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Over 200,000 deaths in six months, and still there's no coherent national strategy for dealing with this virus.
I remember hearing awhile back by the Prez that if they keep it under 100,000 then they did a good job. So sad to see it double and no collective answer.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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A damning statement.
Does the US system of state governments allow for implementation of a national plan?
New York has double the deaths of these other horribly hit states:
New Jersey
California
Texas

I remember hearing awhile back by the Prez that if they keep it under 100,000 then they did a good job. So sad to see it double and no collective answer.
That wasn’t happening, especially when New York State has 1/3 of 100,000 deaths by itself.
 
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Big Muddy

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why not? whats the big deal? hospitalizations are down in Texas
TMC Daily New Covid-19 Hospitalizations - Texas Medical Center

Its never been a big deal according to some, yet there have been around 200,000 deaths in the U.S.

Does the US system of state governments allow for implementation of a national plan?
New York has double the deaths of these other horribly hit states:
New Jersey
California
Texas
The U.S. government found a way of getting things done during a war at a national level I think ......

Over 200,000 deaths in six months, and still there's no coherent national strategy for dealing with this virus.
Cases have been going back up, although there are assertions (from some) that cases aren't important.

C-19 has never been a big deal according to some. I'm still hearing that even lately.

Just heard someone comparing to H1N1 thinking that H1N1 in 2009 was worse. Claims of this nature are so easily verified. From the CDC website:

"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus."

2009 H1N1 Pandemic
 
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Sojourn

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Does the US system of state governments allow for implementation of a national plan?
New York has double the deaths of these other horribly hit states:
New Jersey
California
Texas

A cooperative national effort doesn’t need to be an enforced national plan. It could just mean a plan that is laid out and put together that states can then implement. You know, instead of doing almost nothing and passing the buck to the states entirely. Is it really surprising that the responses were so all over the place?

And not sure what New York has to do with this. They got hit super hard early on, and were a super high risk location. Think about how much they could have done if the administration had been more upfront with what we were dealing with?

That’s where a combined effort comes in. Communication, and information gathering would have been huge.
 
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Fatass

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A cooperative national effort doesn’t need to be an enforced national plan. It could just mean a plan that is laid out and put together that states can then implement. You know, instead of doing almost nothing and passing the buck to the states entirely. Is it really surprising that the responses were so all over the place?

And not sure what New York has to do with this. They got hit super hard early on, and were a super high risk location. Think about how much they could have done if the administration had been more upfront with what we were dealing with?

That’s where a combined effort comes in. Communication, and information gathering would have been huge.
I agree that a national plan is smart, but it’s like each state fights for control with the National government. That’s why I mentioned New York State. They have double the deaths of any of the other worst hit states. Maybe there is s national plan, but the states refuse (foolishly and at the obvious horrible cost of lives) to follow?
 

JacketsFanWest

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Counties are at absolute war with the state health departments. A national plan is impossible since there is such a variety of areas in the country and plans primarily cover the large cities and don't take into account other considerations - like counties which have prisons with outbreaks are resulting in businesses having to close and stay closed because of what's going on at the prison.

Some California counties have gone ahead and opened up in defiance of the state.

Imagine if there was one plan for all of Europe. Would people in rural Poland accept the same rules as people in London? No. It's not practical for the US to have one set of guidelines because they simply aren't fair.

You can look at the number of cases in many areas as being high and there's X cases in that county, state or country but frequently these are concentrated to one area. The zip code I live in has had 19 cases in the last two weeks. A zip code 5 miles away has had 147 and it's simply a function of how many free tests are given out as to how many more there are. The numbers don't seem to ever go down.

Yet, the zip code I live in can't reopen. The number of cases are too high in the county due to one area. More small businesses and restaurants are closing. More people are leaving the state entirely. And there is no hope because the situation in that other zip code and the surrounding area will never get the coronavirus under control.
 

Devilsfan992

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Its never been a big deal according to some, yet there have been around 200,000 deaths in the U.S.


The U.S. government found a way of getting things done during a war at a national level I think ......


Cases have been going back up, although there are assertions (from some) that cases aren't important.

Its never been a big deal according to some. I'm still hearing that even lately.

Just heard someone comparing to H1N1 thinking that H1N1 in 2009 was worse. Claims of this nature are so easily verified. From the CDC website:

"From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus."

2009 H1N1 Pandemic

Tests are also going back up as well. I didn't calculate the percent positive but that has something to do with it. College testing is a big reason. Hospitalizations are still going down.
 

Big Muddy

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A national plan is impossible since there is such a variety of areas in the country

How did the U.S. respond to WW2? Did they do it state by state, with each state deciding what planes, tanks, etc. they would manufacture, how many of each, etc. Or, was there some strategy and coordination at the national/federal level?
 

Big Muddy

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Tests are also going back up as well. I didn't calculate the percent positive but that has something to do with it. College testing is a big reason. Hospitalizations are still going down.
Hopefully hospitalizations will continue to go down.

On the percent positive front, several countries in Europe & Israel have seen increases in percent positive which has led to some hospitalizations & death. Would be good to monitor the situation in those locations to see if there's any applicable trends worth noting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...f750ac-f6c2-11ea-85f7-5941188a98cd_story.html
 

dortt

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How did the U.S. respond to WW2? Did they do it state by state, with each state deciding what planes, tanks, etc. they would manufacture, how many of each, etc. Or, was there some strategy and coordination at the national/federal level?

The Constitution says foreign policy is the domain of the federal government.

The coronavirus response is the responsibility of the individual states
 

adsfan

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The Constitution says foreign policy is the domain of the federal government.

The coronavirus response is the responsibility of the individual states


Because the US Federal Government has absolutely no responsibility for health in the US? (Ignore CDC, NIH, FDA..)

National Institutes of Health (NIH)

I have always been under the impression that the US Federal Government is responsible for a domestic policy.

The 200,000 deaths in the US so far, are way too many for a country that spends so much on health care.

A certain presidential advisor was stealing private purchase PPE that was coming into the US from other countries for the Federal stockpile, which was not given to the states that needed it, like New York, when it was promised that they would do so. So the Feds big footed it and made things worse by suppressing state efforts to control COVID-19 as they drove up the purchase prices for PPE and ventilators by making the states compete against each other to buy up the decreasing supply while the Feds hoarded and hid items that they did not purchase! The Feds were also accused of not reimbursing the companies and hospitals that were purchasing the items.
 

Big Muddy

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The Constitution says foreign policy is the domain of the federal government.

The coronavirus response is the responsibility of the individual states

Not quite as simple as what you have stated, but your statement is largely correct with exceptions.

Who Calls the Shots During a Pandemic, the U.S. Government or States? Q&A with RAND Experts

It needs to be a combination. The federal government and the states have different proficiencies and different powers they can bring to bear that are relevant to this crisis.

The federal government should be taking a lead in terms of any interstate travel, or virus-spread risks, and they do have power to do that. The CDC has quarantine power (under Title 42), for example. Also, in terms of coordinating supplies, personal protective equipment, ventilators, those sorts of things, that's a federal jurisdictional area, so we don't have states competing.

In terms of economic stimulus, as we've seen, that's a federal response because states don't have the funds to be dealing with this.

Sadly, the virus doesn't respect state lines. Looking at parallel situations, there are federal activities like FEMA funding for state responses and National Guard deployments. There is cooperation around ports of entry, where there's a necessary working relationship between the Coast Guard, Customs & Border Protection, and local law enforcement.

Intelligence and public health surveillance resides at the federal level.

So, to reemphasize what was stated earlier, it needs to be a combination. What is needed is a brain trust. The idea is that expertise is easily identified in a central place in a way that can be pushed out to all communities across the country, with guidelines that are consistent with evidence. That was quite helpful, for example, with Zika, from CDC. And NETEC, a network that was set up for Ebola, with expertise concentrated in New York at Bellevue, in Atlanta at Emory, and in Nebraska.

Those experts were able to share protocols about how to treat patients. They set up a central institutional review board, so that research could be instituted quickly and in real time.

We can see lessons learned from other countries. Taiwan and South Korea have had much more aggressive physical distancing measures and contact tracing. Early evidence suggests these things seem to work when centrally coordinated. If the federal government uses its leverage to do things that are evidence-based, and in accordance with sound advice from the CDC and others, it should work well.
 

JacketsFanWest

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How did the U.S. respond to WW2? Did they do it state by state, with each state deciding what planes, tanks, etc. they would manufacture, how many of each, etc. Or, was there some strategy and coordination at the national/federal level?

That's coordinating efforts to build necessary war goods.

The local response to WWII was entirely different and varied depending on area - such as air raid practices, blocking of lights along coasts and so forth. The federal government put in place the plan for what they needed and there wasn't a one-size-fits-all approach to defense.

The federal government is coordinating the manufacturing of vaccines and distribution necessities - like how to handle distributing the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines which require cold storage facilities with freezers with lower temperatures than used for other vaccines or cold chain storage. Entire networks of distribution are being worked out with UPS to create a freezer farms necessary and the requirements for these networks are being established by the CDC.

Moderna and Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine candidates require ultra-low temperatures, raising questions about storage, distribution
Pfizer may win the COVID vaccine race. But distributing it could be another matter.

The idea of the federal government telling businesses to shut down or when to reopen is not practical. That needs to be left to local areas. The entire idea of a one-size-fits-all solution isn't working. These lockdowns need to be in smaller areas than even counties. NY putting a fence around a 1 mile perimeter of the synagogue in New Rochelle NY back in early March is actually a more practical approach to localized outbreaks which many of these are now. More serious containment zone style lockdowns to areas with very high number of cases and blocking them off from the rest of the city/county/state.

But logistics for how to distribute a vaccine which needs facilities to store it that don't exist - that's a job for the federal government. They need to deal with the "stuff" local areas need because the local areas competing with each other and outbidding for PPE or medical equipment isn't fair.
 
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Big Muddy

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That's coordinating efforts to build necessary war goods.

The local response to WWII was entirely different and varied depending on area - such as air raid practices, blocking of lights along coasts and so forth. The federal government put in place the plan for what they needed and there wasn't a one-size-fits-all approach to defense.

The federal government is coordinating the manufacturing of vaccines and distribution necessities - like how to handle distributing the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines which require cold storage facilities with freezers with lower temperatures than used for other vaccines or cold chain storage. Entire networks of distribution are being worked out with UPS to create a freezer farms necessary and the requirements for these networks are being established by the CDC.

Moderna and Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine candidates require ultra-low temperatures, raising questions about storage, distribution
Pfizer may win the COVID vaccine race. But distributing it could be another matter.

The idea of the federal government telling businesses to shut down or when to reopen is not practical. That needs to be left to local areas. The entire idea of a one-size-fits-all solution isn't working. These lockdowns need to be in smaller areas than even counties. NY putting a fence around a 1 mile perimeter of the synagogue in New Rochelle NY back in early March is actually a more practical approach to localized outbreaks which many of these are now. More serious containment zone style lockdowns to areas with very high number of cases and blocking them off from the rest of the city/county/state.

But logistics for how to distribute a vaccine which needs facilities to store it that don't exist - that's a job for the federal government. They need to deal with the "stuff" local areas need because the local areas competing with each other and outbidding for PPE or medical equipment isn't fair.

See #992 for (a lot) more info. Sadly, a pandemic doesn't respect state or county borders, so there's that issue & challenge. Yes, I also noticed the (widely available) news for ultra-cold storage requirements for some of the C-19 vaccines a few days ago.

Odd (and/or ironic) that the need for weapons of war & vaccines seem to have some parallels in terms what response is required as you have (inadvertently?) pointed out. As a pure aside, maybe that's what someone had in mind when he called himself a wartime president?
 

lorwood

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Nov 3, 2008
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I have been thinking about this for some time. I don't think this is to far off topic. Hope the mods agree.

If covid should teach us anything going forward it's how the lack of a national healthcare plan within the U.S. makes us extremely vulnerable and now healthcare for all should now be viewed as a matter of national defense /security.

This virus has exposed to the world a great weakness within the U.S. Everything from the lack of drugs and PPE domestically produced to inadequate healthcare for a large portion of the essential work force.

After living through this pandemic I shudder to think of what an even more deadly strain could do to this country.
 

JacketsFanWest

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See #992 for (a lot) more info. Sadly, a pandemic doesn't respect state or county borders, so there's that issue & challenge. Yes, I also noticed the (widely available) news for ultra-cold storage requirements for some of the C-19 vaccines a few days ago.

Odd (and/or ironic) that the need for weapons of war & vaccines seem to have some parallels in terms what response is required as you have (inadvertently?) pointed out. As a pure aside, maybe that's what someone had in mind when he called himself a wartime president?

The question is how much of people's rights to go about their daily lives should be taken away when there is little risk? There has to be enough risk for rights of people to support and feed their families be taken away and that risk is not sufficient when there are so few cases in the vast majority of counties.

2 of the 58 counties in California have not had a SINGLE case of the coronavirus reported. Another 2 have less than 10 total cases. 9 counties haven't recorded a single death. 23 counties (39.7% of counties) have 10 or fewer deaths.

This is the reason there were protests in many areas like Michigan when people in rural counties weren't allowed to buy necessary goods to maintain their properties because stores were closed when there wasn't a single case in their area and it was essentially people in Detroit financially destroying the lives of people in rural communities.

It's a little different in California since rural communities on the border are being overrun with people with the virus coming in from Mexico, rural farm communities are also heavily impacted, and areas with prisons have high number of cases.

To what degree should people in areas without cases be financially destroyed to stop this virus? This is why there shouldn't be one size fits all rules applied across the country nor are people in areas without cases going to be happy when there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop the spread since they are being punished for the actions of others.

After six months, if these rural counties have so few cases, then there isn't going to be spread to them. The idea of treating the world like the air is toxic and everyone could have the virus is wrong. It's spreading through certain communities. No one will call this out so entire states and counties have to be punished and financially ruined for it.
 
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Loopy0ne

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They should've said f*** your feelings in February - every person coming here from out of the country must quarantine for 2 weeks. If they did that to everyone from airports and boats, i think we could've nipped alot of this in the bud. But, at the time, people said it was racist for Trump to do that.

Meanwhile, any other country that an American goes to enforces 2week quarantine...if they even let us in at all.
 
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