What's going on in Sweden? Part 1

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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Here in Uppsala I saw maybe 1 in 10 wearing masks in march-april, 1 in 50 wearing a mask in the summer and maybe 1 in 20 now in september. Mask wearing isn't a thing here really.

Same here in Stockholm.

I've worked from inside the geriatric care here and not even the workers wore/wear masks while traveling to work, or when at neutral floor inside the work place, unless they wanted/want too, which is a really low number. At the beginning everyone ran around with their heads cut off like chicken, it felt like. People were really hot on the hand alcohol thing. Then after a while plastic face shields and sanitary kits were introduced for workers in direct contact with patients. A number of colleagues got it, and a number of patients died. I could hand over a lot of extra info, but I guess that would be in the semi realm of confidentiality.
 

theVladiator

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May 26, 2018
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so you can't address my post other than "ya well, people died!"...like this is the first time people have died from a virus ever

Well, pardon me for trying to keep it focused on the important things. How was I to expect that you were just going to trivialize people dying? What a stunning move, my jaw is on the floor.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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Well, pardon me for trying to keep it focused on the important things. How was I to expect that you were just going to trivialize people dying? What a stunning move, my jaw is on the floor.
People die; life is a death sentence.
It’s the loss of life, that could otherwise be averted that’s tragic.
Sweden, like every country (especially us in Canada) tragically had horrible loss of life in nursing homes. Sweden is doing great now, and has been for months. It’s like their plan had initial struggle (like we all did) and then they did great. Lots of other countries did poorly in the beginning and are still doing poorly. It’s great Sweden is doing so well now. Good for them.
 

Fatass

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Same here in Stockholm.

I've worked from inside the geriatric care here and not even the workers wore/wear masks while traveling to work, or when at neutral floor inside the work place, unless they wanted/want too, which is a really low number. At the beginning everyone ran around with their heads cut off like chicken, it felt like. People were really hot on the hand alcohol thing. Then after a while plastic face shields and sanitary kits were introduced for workers in direct contact with patients. A number of colleagues got it, and a number of patients died. I could hand over a lot of extra info, but I guess that would be in the semi realm of confidentiality.
I know Canada (where I am) has 82% of Covid deaths the elderly in nursing homes. We had a serious problem with employees working in multiple nursing homes, and transmitting the virus from one home to another. Did you in Sweden have a similar issue?
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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I know Canada (where I am) has 82% of Covid deaths the elderly in nursing homes. We had a serious problem with employees working in multiple nursing homes, and transmitting the virus from one home to another. Did you in Sweden have a similar issue?

I know of colleagues who work other/multiple nursing home jobs, yes. I haven't read much about it though, regarding overall numbers, because it's not a general interest of mine.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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I know of colleagues who work other/multiple nursing home jobs, yes. I haven't read much about it though, regarding overall numbers, because it's not a general interest of mine.
Once most infectious diseases get into a nursing home population it’s really bad. In Canada there’s a commission looking into the 82% number. It was really bad here. I read Sweden had 70% of their Covid 19 related deaths in nursing homes, so figured transmission from home to home was similar.
 

CantHaveTkachev

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People like to say this, but we invest billions into trying to prevent exactly that.

Maybe it isn't as trivial as you think it is.
sure but death comes to us all in various ways and we "risk" death everyday by the choices we make daily
there was 2.8 million people who died in the U.S alone in 2017...heck, the death rate has been climbing since 2010 for various reasons
United States of America Death rate, 1950-2019 - knoema.com
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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sure but death comes to us all in various ways and we "risk" death everyday by the choices we make daily
there was 2.8 million people who died in the U.S alone in 2017...heck, the death rate has been climbing since 2010 for various reasons
United States of America Death rate, 1950-2019 - knoema.com
Society spends countless amounts of money and puts huge amounts of effort into reducing most of the common causes of death. To continually bring up car accidents, cancer, heart disease, influenza, etc. as a comparison for COVID while advocating for limited to no measures for COVID is disingenuous. In fact, using these example is evidence that an aggressive and widespread response to reducing COVIDdeaths is not only warranted, but should be an obligation of society.
 

dortt

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Sep 21, 2018
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Society spends countless amounts of money and puts huge amounts of effort into reducing most of the common causes of death. To continually bring up car accidents, cancer, heart disease, influenza, etc. as a comparison for COVID while advocating for limited to no measures for COVID is disingenuous. In fact, using these example is evidence that an aggressive and widespread response to reducing COVIDdeaths is not only warranted, but should be an obligation of society.

Yes, we should mitigate the deaths from this virus

Just not at the expense of the economy. Thus, Sweden's approach overall has been the best so far
 

Blender

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Dec 2, 2009
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Yes, we should mitigate the deaths from this virus

Just not at the expense of the economy. Thus, Sweden's approach overall has been the best so far
Sweden's economy was heavily impacted. It's a myth that it wasn't, and it's a fantasy to think any option included no economic impact.

Do you think we should not be pumping money into other mitigation efforts like cancer or the flu in order to maximize economic benefits?
 

BahlDeep

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Sweden's economy was heavily impacted. It's a myth that it wasn't, and it's a fantasy to think any option included no economic impact.

Do you think we should not be pumping money into other mitigation efforts like cancer or the flu in order to maximize economic benefits?

They barely took any debt compared to their GDP, you keep on saying this but it's absolutely false when you look at it on a relative basis, which is how you should look at it.
 

theVladiator

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May 26, 2018
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Yes, we should mitigate the deaths from this virus

Just not at the expense of the economy.
Thus, Sweden's approach overall has been the best so far

Something to put this in perspective for you.

I want you to imagine a loved one. Now imagine telling them that it's ok that they die, if it means that the economy doesn't wobble a little bit.

Or better yet, imagine a guy telling you that one of your loved ones should die. Actually, that you do not have to imagine. That guy, currently, is you.
 

BahlDeep

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Something to put this in perspective for you.

I want you to imagine a loved one. Now imagine telling them that it's ok that they die, if it means that the economy doesn't wobble a little bit.

Or better yet, imagine a guy telling you that one of your loved ones should die. Actually, that you do not have to imagine. That guy, currently, is you.

Or imagine you lose the business you worked all your life to build, then you get depressed, then you commit suicide.

These story lines are terrible and do nothing to help the debate. Reality is we need to protect the vulnerable and let the rest carry the economic burden.
 

theVladiator

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Or imagine you lose the business you worked all your life to build, then you get depressed, then you commit suicide.

These story lines are terrible and do nothing to help the debate. Reality is we need to protect the vulnerable and let the rest carry the economic burden.

I think it's very helpful for the debate. It's unconscionable to suggest that people die to save some economic trouble. Well, sometimes people forget that there are real lives behind numbers. I have tried to help the other poster understand the real cost of human life by putting a face on it. There is always a face behind every death. I am trying to help him/her remember that.

Your counterexample I think is useful, since it deals in comparable terms to COVID damage - loss of life. There is one thing missing though - the scale. I know the scale of COVID damage as it is, and how much worse it could have been in some countries. Can you help me understand how serious the terrible situation you are describing really is, by telling me how many people are you talking about? How many cases like that (lost business due to lockdown -> suicide) are there?
 

dortt

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Sep 21, 2018
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Something to put this in perspective for you.

I want you to imagine a loved one. Now imagine telling them that it's ok that they die, if it means that the economy doesn't wobble a little bit.

Or better yet, imagine a guy telling you that one of your loved ones should die. Actually, that you do not have to imagine. That guy, currently, is you.

Yes, I would accept that.

The overall good of the country comes before my personal needs.

200,000 deaths, many of whom may have died anyways, is not worth an economic depression. No cost-benefit analysis would show that
 

Jussi

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BahlDeep

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I think it's very helpful for the debate. It's unconscionable to suggest that people die to save some economic trouble. Well, sometimes people forget that there are real lives behind numbers. I have tried to help the other poster understand the real cost of human life by putting a face on it. There is always a face behind every death. I am trying to help him/her remember that.

Your counterexample I think is useful, since it deals in comparable terms to COVID damage - loss of life. There is one thing missing though - the scale. I know the scale of COVID damage as it is, and how much worse it could have been in some countries. Can you help me understand how serious the terrible situation you are describing really is, by telling me how many people are you talking about? How many cases like that (lost business due to lockdown -> suicide) are there?

What is the scale?
 

BahlDeep

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Economy dropped just as much as their neighbors. Plus they're going to be taking debt in order to stimulate the economy. Curiously enough, in climate friendly ways that could help Finnish economy as well.

The % of the debt/GDP is what I am referring too. Sweden took only about 5%, most countries took much more then that to keep their economy afloat. Who's going to pay for all of this debt? To think that the economic consequences are only on the short term while ignoring all this debt is completely ignorant. Finland took on 8% (As of June) which is respectable but can explain why their GDP fared better then Sweden by a couple of points.

There's 2 questions now:
1) Will Sweden avoid a second waive because they might be close to herd immunity?
2) Will Finland avoid a second waive while having restrictive measures?
 

Jussi

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The % of the debt/GDP is what I am referring too. Sweden took only about 5%, most countries took much more then that to keep their economy afloat. Who's going to pay for all of this debt? To think that the economic consequences are only on the short term while ignoring all this debt is completely ignorant. Finland took on 8% (As of June) which is respectable but can explain why their GDP fared better then Sweden by a couple of points.

There's 2 questions now:
1) Will Sweden avoid a second waive because they might be close to herd immunity?
2) Will Finland avoid a second waive while having restrictive measures?

We don't really have that restrictive measures right now.
 

Jussi

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Feb 28, 2002
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If numbers start to rise, they're will be more

Some Europeans countries have started to do it, same for Canada.

We're dealing with new cases locally. Test, trace, isolate. We "closed" the Swedish and Estonian border already, meaning no access without quarantine. Other measures are likely to be local, should the need arise.
 

BahlDeep

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We're dealing with new cases locally. Test, trace, isolate. We "closed" the Swedish and Estonian border already, meaning no access without quarantine. Other measures are likely to be local, should the need arise.

Okay. Not sure what the debate is than.
 
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