What you lose when you join the ECHL

[Off da post and in]

Johnstown has a history of hockey dating back to 1950. We are a hockey town with very knowledgeable fans . If the current NAHL was anything like Hoodaha is describing, the Johnstown Tomahawks would not be averaging well over 2,000 fans per game for the third consecutive season.

Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.

However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.

Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.

However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.

Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.

That's basically some of the towns in this league. An Elmira or Wheeling places like those and so on.

 

[Off da post and in]

Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.

However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.

Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.

STFC, you're a good example of the above villager when you make comments like, "the NAHL is equal to NCAA D3 hockey", or "Junior hockey is more talented than the AHL".

 

[Sal]

Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.

Exactly Sal, well said. It is about the entertainment. Also the effort put forth.

Recall back to the 1973-77 NAHL, offshoot from the EHL. I believe that the NAHL failed because it touted itself as the top development league for the WHA. The first 2 years were great, mostly because the remnants of the EHL. The last 2, not so good. It seemed that nearly every player here thought they deserved to be in Indianapolis or Toronto. Sure, there were exceptions but it was plain to see that most didn't want to be here. Hence, unless the Dusters or Jets with the Carlson's came to town, the games were NOT ENTERTAINING. "DEVELOPMENTAL" HOCKEY !!

Got off track but it goes back to what you said. I want to be entertained. Been watching hockey for 50 years and I am still not inspired by boring hockey or guys that give little or no effort.

 

[Off da post and in]

Exactly Sal, well said. It is about the entertainment. Also the effort put forth.

Recall back to the 1973-77 NAHL, offshoot from the EHL. I believe that the NAHL failed because it touted itself as the top development league for the WHA. The first 2 years were great, mostly because the remnants of the EHL. The last 2, not so good. It seemed that nearly every player here thought they deserved to be in Indianapolis or Toronto. Sure, there were exceptions but it was plain to see that most didn't want to be here. Hence, unless the Dusters or Jets with the Carlson's came to town, the games were NOT ENTERTAINING. "DEVELOPMENTAL" HOCKEY !!

Got off track but it goes back to what you said. I want to be entertained. Been watching hockey for 50 years and I am still not inspired by boring hockey or guys that give little or no effort.

Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.

When talking of what entertains you it's not for me to debate. However, STFC's comments spoke to the level of skill, talent, and play which is a different point. One can't defend the comment that today's NAHL is equivalent to NCAA D3, nor that Juniors are more talented than the AHL.

BTW, STFC was referring to the current NAHL (Juniors) not the EHL offshoot 1973-77 version of the minor pro NAHL.

 

[JackalsKnuckles]

Within around 60 miles of Johnstown, we have the NHL, two Division I programs, ACHA and Midget Major hockey. Without a doubt, the skill level of the individual players is much higher in the ECHL than the NAHL. What I am referring to is the entertainment value. We had the ECHL. The early years were great. The last few years was like watching paint dry. It became nothing but watching potential AHL 4th liners putting their time in; with minimum effort, waiting for the AHL call. The NAHL players give 100% all the time and they have enough skill to play a very intense and entertaining style of play. Having the young players getting very involved with the community also creates a bond with the fans. If you would poll the fans in Johnstown, I think the vote would be overwhelming in favor of the NAHL over the ECHL just for the entertainment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Right now we prefer the hustle and effort of the NAHL over the half-assed, non-caring attitude from the ECHL players that we last witnessed here. When we want to see highly skilled hockey, we can just watch the nearby Penguins.

Good points and all points I agree with. I live in an ECHL city (well 25 miles away) and had season tickets for 8 years, and have the same opinion of the play that you do. So far this year I've seen games on road trips in the QMJHL, LNAH, QJHL, Quebec Junior B, FHL, NAHL, OHL, EHL and NCAA D3. Not all were great, but the compete level and intensity of the games in most of these leagues is good enough to offer entertainment, and in most cases more fun to watch than the ECHL. I'm not missing the ECHL, and am not sure if I will be back to my local arena this year or not. Sure the ECHL can "develop" players, it is just not very exciting when compared to other leagues out there.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

When talking of what entertains you it's not for me to debate. However, STFC's comments spoke to the level of skill, talent, and play which is a different point. One can't defend the comment that today's NAHL is equivalent to NCAA D3, nor that Juniors are more talented than the AHL.

BTW, STFC was referring to the current NAHL (Juniors) not the EHL offshoot 1973-77 version of the minor pro NAHL.

I know that, was just using the developmental theme. Another argument against the 30/30/30 and what we watch in the ECHL now.

As far as the Junior NAHL vs D#, I don't see enough of either to comment.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Johnstown has a history of hockey dating back to 1950. We are a hockey town with very knowledgeable fans . If the current NAHL was anything like Hoodaha is describing, the Johnstown Tomahawks would not be averaging well over 2,000 fans per game for the third consecutive season.

Get your facts straight: Johnstown has a history of barely supporting hockey teams back to 1950. It's a town with about 1,000 die hards and 1,000 casual fans and 2,000 that can be convinced to show up once or twice a year. The average attendance has been between 2,000 and 3,000 since the late 1950s. The Jets were always in danger of folding (until they did), the Red Wings and Wings drew right around 2,300/game, and so did the Chiefs.

The Tomahawks attendance of 2,300 is right about where the Chiefs were, and they only dropped (barely) below that mark the last two ECHL seasons. The only reason that the NAHL is getting by in Johnstown is because they don't have to pay the players. The same people are showing up. No one has "come back," and no new fans seem to have been created.

 

[MrWilson*]

You're describing a perfect hockey town. Sounds like 2-3000 fans have consistently attended since 1950. Find me another NAHL team that can do that every game or has that history. There aren't many.

 

[Sal]

Get your facts straight: Johnstown has a history of barely supporting hockey teams back to 1950. It's a town with about 1,000 die hards and 1,000 casual fans and 2,000 that can be convinced to show up once or twice a year. The average attendance has been between 2,000 and 3,000 since the late 1950s. The Jets were always in danger of folding (until they did), the Red Wings and Wings drew right around 2,300/game, and so did the Chiefs.

The Tomahawks attendance of 2,300 is right about where the Chiefs were, and they only dropped (barely) below that mark the last two ECHL seasons. The only reason that the NAHL is getting by in Johnstown is because they don't have to pay the players. The same people are showing up. No one has "come back," and no new fans seem to have been created.

What fact did I not get straight? I never claimed that hockey has always been a financial success in this town. But what other town the size of Johnstown can claim to have had a hockey team almost every year since 1950? Unless you live here, how would you know who attends the games? I live here. I have been supporting all of our hockey teams for over forty of those years. The fan base for the NAHL team IS much younger than the ECHL years; so yes, many new fans ARE being created. And yes, many of us long time hockey fans from back in the Jets days are attending too. In addition to Johnstown, just about every other team they ever played in minor pro were also always in danger of folding. Just about every team struggled financially one time or another.

Why does it seem to bother some people that Johnstown now enthusiastically supports junior hockey over minor pro? As if Johnstown is the only team that doesn't pay their Junior players. Those are the NCAA rules. There are many larger cities in both the NAHL and USHL; and guess what, they don't pay their players either!

 

[PCSPounder]

Our beloved village, a few miles outside a large metropolis, has a history of eating at a singular restaurant dating back to to 1830. Our hamlet has very knowledgeable hungry diners. If the old historic burger joint was anything like the restaurant guidebook describes, the diner would not be crowded every meal time hour every day.

However, if our village had some other eateries in the immediate vicinity such as a steakhouse, an Italian Ristorante, or a Chinese Buffet that greasy burger joint would be less congested.

Whether hockey or food, if the local patrons have no alternatiive they're a 'captive audience', and build a misguided loyalty for the lone available product. Therefore, your endorsement of the NAHL is not convincing for those of us that have a range of levels from mites to the NHL.

At present, certain cups of coffee that you might be buying from a national chain are more expensive than a gallon of gas. But how long will that last?

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Get your facts straight: Johnstown has a history of barely supporting hockey teams back to 1950. It's a town with about 1,000 die hards and 1,000 casual fans and 2,000 that can be convinced to show up once or twice a year. The average attendance has been between 2,000 and 3,000 since the late 1950s. The Jets were always in danger of folding (until they did), the Red Wings and Wings drew right around 2,300/game, and so did the Chiefs.

The Tomahawks attendance of 2,300 is right about where the Chiefs were, and they only dropped (barely) below that mark the last two ECHL seasons. The only reason that the NAHL is getting by in Johnstown is because they don't have to pay the players. The same people are showing up. No one has "come back," and no new fans seem to have been created.

What fact did I not get straight? I never claimed that hockey has always been a financial success in this town. But what other town the size of Johnstown can claim to have had a hockey team almost every year since 1950? Unless you live here, how would you know who attends the games? I live here. I have been supporting all of our hockey teams for over forty of those years. The fan base for the NAHL team IS much younger than the ECHL years; so yes, many new fans ARE being created. And yes, many of us long time hockey fans from back in the Jets days are attending too. In addition to Johnstown, just about every other team they ever played in minor pro were also always in danger of folding. Just about every team struggled financially one time or another.

Why does it seem to bother some people that Johnstown now enthusiastically supports junior hockey over minor pro? As if Johnstown is the only team that doesn't pay their Junior players. Those are the NCAA rules. There are many larger cities in both the NAHL and USHL; and guess what, they don't pay their players either!

Let me explain this to you: an average of 2,300 people now attending an NAHL game is the same as an average of 2,300 people attending an ECHL game 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and so on. Johnstown supports the NAHL no more enthusiastically than they've ever supported hockey going back to when the War Memorial was built in 1950. Do I live in Johnstown? No, but I did, and I visit quite often. The same people that have always gone continue to go. Nothing has changed but the league, and to a small extent, the financial model. But with a dwindling, aging population that's closer to poverty than ever, they're going to have to create a lot more new fans from outside Johnstown to keep the team viable - and that's just not going to happen.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

You're describing a perfect hockey town. Sounds like 2-3000 fans have consistently attended since 1950. Find me another NAHL team that can do that every game or has that history. There aren't many.

Not the perfect hockey town, atleast in the pro ranks. In the pris you aren't making money with that attendance. Makes me wonder how teams like Elmira, Wheeling and Johnstown survived so long.

 

[Affiliate Watcher]

There's a lot of complaining and comparing going on on the board and I'm not sure why. If you are lucky enough to have a team in your town, then boast about it, don't hack on the level of play. If you're on here you probably already have an idea of what you're getting for your money.
I live in Brampton, unofficially considered part of the Greater-Toronto-Area. This is probably one of the most hockey mad parts of North America and at the same time a wasteland for anything that isn't NHL.
We've lost our OHL team because of lack of support. Our neighbours in Mississauga have been put on notice that if attendance doesn't get better in 3 years they will lose their OHL team as well.
Basically it seems that unless it's the Leafs, no one cares about what else is out there unless their kid is in it.
We got our CHL Brampton Beast last year, shortly after the Battalion left. Even I was skeptical and didn't even attend one game (I was still bitter about losing an OHL team). This year the merger happened, and because the ECHL is a more legitimate league I hopped on board and purchased seasons ticket.
I don't care how we compare to the AHL or the NHL, I don't care that we don't even have an affiliate anymore. When I go to the games I get to watch hockey, LIVE and IN PERSON! Nothing on tv will ever compare to being in the seats. I've been told that attendance for this year is up over last year and that gives me hope. I like cheering for, and supporting, the team from my city.

I guess all I'm trying to post is that you need to appreciate what you've got, because if you don't and (even worse) if you belittle what you do have you'll lose hockey in your town. Please don't talk down about your local franchise to others, minor-pro leagues don't need that. We need to get more fans out to the games not convince others not to "waste" their money. I've taken my Dad and my nephews out to several games and the smile on the face of a 5 year old, and the time I get to spend with my Dad are worth every penny I spend on a season ticket. And comparatively, my out of pocket expense for a Beast game wouldn't even buy a beer at a Leafs game.

 

[Hoodaha]

There's a lot of complaining and comparing going on on the board and I'm not sure why. If you are lucky enough to have a team in your town, then boast about it, don't hack on the level of play. If you're on here you probably already have an idea of what you're getting for your money.
I live in Brampton, unofficially considered part of the Greater-Toronto-Area. This is probably one of the most hockey mad parts of North America and at the same time a wasteland for anything that isn't NHL.
We've lost our OHL team because of lack of support. Our neighbours in Mississauga have been put on notice that if attendance doesn't get better in 3 years they will lose their OHL team as well.
Basically it seems that unless it's the Leafs, no one cares about what else is out there unless their kid is in it.
We got our CHL Brampton Beast last year, shortly after the Battalion left. Even I was skeptical and didn't even attend one game (I was still bitter about losing an OHL team). This year the merger happened, and because the ECHL is a more legitimate league I hopped on board and purchased seasons ticket.
I don't care how we compare to the AHL or the NHL, I don't care that we don't even have an affiliate anymore. When I go to the games I get to watch hockey, LIVE and IN PERSON! Nothing on tv will ever compare to being in the seats. I've been told that attendance for this year is up over last year and that gives me hope. I like cheering for, and supporting, the team from my city.

I guess all I'm trying to post is that you need to appreciate what you've got, because if you don't and (even worse) if you belittle what you do have you'll lose hockey in your town. Please don't talk down about your local franchise to others, minor-pro leagues don't need that. We need to get more fans out to the games not convince others not to "waste" their money. I've taken my Dad and my nephews out to several games and the smile on the face of a 5 year old, and the time I get to spend with my Dad are worth every penny I spend on a season ticket. And comparatively, my out of pocket expense for a Beast game wouldn't even buy a beer at a Leafs game.

Yep. mediocre live hockey is 10x better than high level hockey on TV. As a fan, I am happy having a team, no matter what.

By the way, anyone saying that ECHL hockey isn't exciting didn't see the Bakersfield Condors teddy bear toss game this weekend. With 7 minutes left, down 5-3, the home team scores two to tie it and then scores in OT to win on a beautiful individual effort in front of 8,500 fans. Seeing 7,300 teddy bears thrown after the first goal wasn't half bad either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BwmNTODb4&feature=youtu.be