What would you like CBJ management to do?

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Your rational for value is understandable and I appreciate the great feedback from both of you. I would tend to agree the price is a bit on the steep side. Where does a package around Jost land us in terms of trying to gauge value.

Is this before or after reading the thread dedicated to him on your team's HF forum?

 

[Perratrooper]

Is this before or after reading the thread dedicated to him on your team's HF forum?

I think there's a bit of an over reaction on our (Ave) board based on his play not lining up with his hype. I think if you take him for what he is he's a solid third line center that has had his development stunted and not been provided with any consistency throughout his time here. I would personally say his value would be slightly more than what Pulj is, but I could be out to lunch on that.

 

[majormajor]

Currently a 28 year old right handed defenseman. This year and one more remaining at a cap hit of 4.5 million.

David Savard gave an outstanding account of himself in the Tampa series, and probably a bit less so in the Boston series last year. But the play was none to rich for him. If you were looking for a deal now, it would probably be a first round pick and a prospect. At the trade deadline, it is probably similar assuming nothing major changes in his health or game.

A first round pick might sound rich, but the Blue Jackets are dealing from a position of strength. They don't need to trade him. Through six games, the only need is more offense. But all advanced stats seem to point to a lack of finish, not a lack of chances. I think the team is willing to wait for a larger sample size, unless a "blown-away" offer lands on the desk. We assume that's not what would be offered. Like DSL above, its difficult to say what it would take. The team has graduated 4 prospects to the roster (Gavrikov, Bemstrom, Texier and Merzlikins). (actually 5 - forgot Lilja, but leave it at 4 in case Dubinsky comes off IR). While I doubt there are 4 jobs available over the next couple years, the draft picks are needed to acquire more prospects to develop.

A 1st from Colorado is probably 25-31st, and I'd say less than half of Savard's value at present.

The club has no reason to trade him now. He's not a replaceable piece like Nutivaara might be, there's just not as many Savard types to be had, internally or around the league. I'd argue Savard is worth more than a 1st+.

If I remember correctly, you're fine with treating this year like a development year, but I don't think it is yet, not from the club's perspective. They're going to try to win and re-evaluate later in the year. If they're not above .500 at mid-year, then they'll listen to offers. But it would have to be more than this, probably closer to the Leafs package for Muzzin - a late 1st and two B+ prospects (that was close in value to the Duchene price, btw).

In any case, Colorado doesn't need anything so badly right now that they can't wait until February when more teams will be sellers. The prices would be too high right now.

 

[koteka]

I could see us trading Savard at the deadline if we are out of it. I don’t think we will be willing to pay what it takes to resign him after next year, and Peake should be ready to replace him. We won’t be protecting him in the expansion draft. But there is no reason to trade him now for the same kind of package we could get for him at the deadline.

 

[EDM]

Right now the FO should do just what it is doing, sit patiently and see how things develop. I think we will be a low scoring but competitive team that will hang on the fringe of playoff contention until Jarmo makes a big trade deadline move to add offense by trading from our defensive surplus.

 

[EspenK]

Right now the FO should do just what it is doing, sit patiently and see how things develop. I think we will be a low scoring but competitive team that will hang on the fringe of playoff contention until Jarmo makes a big trade deadline move to add offense by trading from our defensive surplus.

I don't see that happening at that point in time. If we are trading with a contender they are not giving up top offensive players. If we are trading down to a lottery team it could happen but I see those teams more looking for picks and prospects. At some point I hope you're right but I don''t see it at the TDL?

 

[Viqsi]

Honestly, I don't think adding Yet Another Offensive Player is going to do much for this team at this point. We've got quite a few already. We've seen this phenomenon before, and used to go on and on about how we needed a game-breaking forward as we had literally everything else covered - and, frankly, we're back to that.

On the positive side, the last time we were here we did put up a 100+ point season. Keep doing the right thing and good results will come, and all that. And we have a few kids who just might learn to become game-breakers if we're fortunate. So.

 

[majormajor]

I won't comment on the PP, but the 5 v 5 shooting percentage is 6.28%. That's going to come up naturally. No team had a figure that low last year. And for those who think that's just the level the Jackets are at without Panarin, they topped 8% when he wasn't on the ice last year. Something between 7.5% to 8% seems more likely I think.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I won't comment on the PP, but the 5 v 5 shooting percentage is 6.28%. That's going to come up naturally. No team had a figure that low last year. And for those who think that's just the level the Jackets are at without Panarin, they topped 8% when he wasn't on the ice last year. Something between 7.5% to 8% seems more likely I think.

I think your projection seems more than reasonable.

 

[majormajor]

Honestly, I don't think adding Yet Another Offensive Player is going to do much for this team at this point. We've got quite a few already. We've seen this phenomenon before, and used to go on and on about how we needed a game-breaking forward as we had literally everything else covered - and, frankly, we're back to that.

On the positive side, the last time we were here we did put up a 100+ point season. Keep doing the right thing and good results will come, and all that. And we have a few kids who just might learn to become game-breakers if we're fortunate. So.

I think it's worth discussing who is "yet another offensive player" and who is a genuine upgrade. We do want upgrades, don't we?

What do you mean by "yet another offensive player"? More of what we have?

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

I could see moving one of the top 4 to acquire a goal scorer and to give our 5-8 D more ice time. However Seth Jones is not available imo. I can also see sitting tight trying to win low scoring games and letting your young offense develop.

 

[Viqsi]

I think it's worth discussing who is "yet another offensive player" and who is a genuine upgrade. We do want upgrades, don't we?

What do you mean by "yet another offensive player"? More of what we have?

Anyone who isn't some kind of magic superstar.

See, here's the thing. Folks may say we need goal scorers, but we have many very good quality goal scorers. Folks may say we need playmakers, but we have several really good quality playmakers. Folks may say we need to create chances, but we DO create chances, frequently. Folks may say we need to get more shots on net, but we're doing just fine in that regard. Folks might rant about the coaching staff, but we were playing exactly this same way before and we were getting goals. Folks may point out that we've abandoned "safe is death" - but we're still creating chances, so that hasn't gone away. So what the hell is it?

I honest to G-d defy anybody to point out whatever it is that is keeping this team from scoring other than some empty thought-killing "mumble mumble talent level" statement. By every objective measure and every dispassionate observation they are doing everything right 5-on-5, with plenty of personnel that have repeatedly demonstrated all the necessary capability and more besides, and yet The Puck Still Will Not Go In consistently.

When you're seemingly doing everything right, what the hell can you add? Nobody has been playing particularly poorly, unless you count Cam's slowdown. We're not stuck with eleventy billion third liners, unless one wants to take the absurd notion that everybody's been "overperforming" for the last three years. We're not making more mistakes than any other NHL team. We have honest to G-d weapons on the blueline. We haven't been crippled by injury - just Anderson is missing. So what the hell else can be done?

We have occasional daydreams about guys like Trocheck and Connor and the like. But what skills do they add to this team that we don't already have? What will they do that everybody else we have somehow inexplicably cannot? What is it that makes them the solution to our problems, and why is it suddenly impossible to get that out of the many players we already have?

I want an explanation other than "they're just better somehow", because if we can't identify what it is that's wrong, then we have no hope of making sane trades that will actually help. Grass-is-greener syndrome does not fix things. I want fixes, not blind rote action. But so far all I've seen is "well, we need guys who can score goals" without any conception of what it is they're supposed to be doing to make that happen.

 

[EspenK]

Anyone who isn't some kind of magic superstar.

See, here's the thing. Folks may say we need goal scorers, but we have many very good quality goal scorers. Folks may say we need playmakers, but we have several really good quality playmakers. Folks may say we need to create chances, but we DO create chances, frequently. Folks may say we need to get more shots on net, but we're doing just fine in that regard. Folks might rant about the coaching staff, but we were playing exactly this same way before and we were getting goals. Folks may point out that we've abandoned "safe is death" - but we're still creating chances, so that hasn't gone away. So what the hell is it? I don't see many very good goal scorers, Who exactly are the several really good playmakers?

I honest to G-d defy anybody to point out whatever it is that is keeping this team from scoring other than some empty thought-killing "mumble mumble talent level" statement. By every objective measure and every dispassionate observation they are doing everything right 5-on-5, with plenty of personnel that have repeatedly demonstrated all the necessary capability and more besides, and yet The Puck Still Will Not Go In consistently. I haven't seen a lot of quality chances. On breakaways its been Foligno or Jenner many times and their finishing abilities are suspect


When you're seemingly doing everything right, what the hell can you add? Nobody has been playing particularly poorly, unless you count Cam's slowdown. We're not stuck with eleventy billion third liners, unless one wants to take the absurd notion that everybody's been "overperforming" for the last three years. We're not making more mistakes than any other NHL team. We have honest to G-d weapons on the blueline. We haven't been crippled by injury - just Anderson is missing. So what the hell else can be done?

We have occasional daydreams about guys like Trocheck and Connor and the like. But what skills do they add to this team that we don't already have? What will they do that everybody else we have somehow inexplicably cannot? What is it that makes them the solution to our problems, and why is it suddenly impossible to get that out of the many players we already have? Well Connor for one would give us a proven top 6 LW>

I want an explanation other than "they're just better somehow", because if we can't identify what it is that's wrong, then we have no hope of making sane trades that will actually help. Grass-is-greener syndrome does not fix things. I want fixes, not blind rote action. But so far all I've seen is "well, we need guys who can score goals" without any conception of what it is they're supposed to be doing to make that happen.

Expand quote for specific replies.

Although this is nebulous I think we need a coaching change. Look at LA under a new coach with a new offensive system. And I believe the team needs to be evaluated as a team and not individual players. We have an abundance of RW's and are weak at LW. We also lack a Panarin like player who can put the team on his back and carry it with a full arsenal of tools, passing, entering the zone, shooting, scoring. We have no one who can do that.

 

[Dumais]

2C

Someone like Anze Kopitar (on the high end) or a Veteran C (on the low end) of centers. Someone who excels at leading a team. Not the dude carrying the puck from end to end. But the center who is "smart" enough to come back to his own end when a breakout is occurring and the defense are joining the rush. Especially when theirs a player behind the defense; rather than joining in the rush up ice. Maybe someone who can help PLD with their own personal experiences and little things that he can do to be better. Oh and someone he can count on...like when teams keep taking runs at him (wait till PLD goes down...then we will know exactly who we need) like they have been the last couple games. That kind of center wouldn't just fill a hole (lol) but would help bring this team together. This team lacks identity and the kind of bond that teams like Detriot had in the late 90s-early 2000s. That's what this team is missing in my opinion.

Just a veteran 2c, but I think someone like Barzal from last night might be helpful in other ways as well.

 

[LoveCBJ]

Personally, I think our passing is pathetic. We don't set up good scoring plays but rely on getting a rebound. Werenski is a player who could get us a real 1c. My opinion. Go Jackets.

 

[majormajor]

Expand quote for specific replies.

Although this is nebulous I think we need a coaching change. Look at LA under a new coach with a new offensive system. And I believe the team needs to be evaluated as a team and not individual players. We have an abundance of RW's and are weak at LW. We also lack a Panarin like player who can put the team on his back and carry it with a full arsenal of tools, passing, entering the zone, shooting, scoring. We have no one who can do that.

Can't see goal scorers? 5 guys coming off of 20+ goal seasons. It's not that hard to see goal scorers. [MOD]

 

[EspenK]

Can't see goal scorers? 5 guys coming off of 20+ goal seasons. It's not that hard to see goal scorers. [MOD]

I believe I said good goal scorers not goal scorers. Guys like Laine, Ovechkin, those kind of goal scorers not the kind we have who wait for a loose rebound or lucky carom. [MOD]

 

[Cowumbus]

A new coach would be a good start. Nothing against Torts, just time to move on IMO.

 

[majormajor]

I believe I said good goal scorers not goal scorers. Guys like Laine, Ovechkin, those kind of goal scorers not the kind we have who wait for a loose rebound or lucky carom. [MOD]

So you meant by "good goal scorers", "generational goal scorers"? I think I see where our misunderstanding lies.

[MOD]

 

[koteka]

We have been able to acquire 2 great players through trades in the last few years, but those were both strange situations.

Jones was buried on the team with the deepest defensive unit in the league. We traded a 4th overall pick for a 4th overall pick straight up and won that trade.

Panarin was a talented player on a team that had won cups, but he hadn’t been along for the cups. Chicago was facing cap hell and couldn’t trade any of the beloved guys who had brought them championships. Panarin was signed for only 2 more years and Chicago knew they couldn’t afford him after that. So they traded him for a former Hawk (who made the All Star team with the CBJ) who had had chemistry with Toews and had a contract they could absorb which they hoped would keep their championship window open.

I don’t see a trade we can make like those two. But, then again, nobody expected either of those trades, so we don’t know what is possible. But the likely cost for a serious impact player is a top of the draft pick (PLD) or all star (Cam, Zach? - he was an all star but as a replacement for Jones).

 

[Viqsi]

Ease up on the personal attacks, folks. It's not helping.

* * *​

I believe I said good goal scorers not goal scorers. Guys like Laine, Ovechkin, those kind of goal scorers not the kind we have who wait for a loose rebound or lucky carom. [MOD]

This is part of what I was referring to with the "mumble mumble talent level" gripe. We do have guys who have demonstrated the capability to score outside of those situations. Bjorkstrand's done it. Atkinson's done it. Anderson's done it. And so on. They're all very good. The two examples you're giving are a budding star and a generational-level first-ballot HoF superstar. That's like saying our defense isn't good enough because we don't have Bobby Orr. It's excessive.

 

[cslebn]

Ease up on the personal attacks, folks. It's not helping.

* * *​

This is part of what I was referring to with the "mumble mumble talent level" gripe. We do have guys who have demonstrated the capability to score outside of those situations. Bjorkstrand's done it. Atkinson's done it. Anderson's done it. And so on. They're all very good. The two examples you're giving are a budding star and a generational-level first-ballot HoF superstar. That's like saying our defense isn't good enough because we don't have Bobby Orr. It's excessive.

I think part of the contention it's you just listed our RWs and no LWs.

 

[Viqsi]

I think part of the contention it's you just listed our RWs and no LWs.

Fair point. Although Nyquist could also be so listed, albeit as more of a playmaker.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think part of the contention it's you just listed our RWs and no LWs.

True enough but the left-right thing isn't the contention that was made.

 

[BluejacketNut]

If the Dallas slide continues, i'd love to see if we could land Seguin