What would break HF? Crosby winning the Hart or the Selke?

[daver]

I think both would myself.

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[NeverForget06]

Do you mean this season?

 

[Midnight Judges]

If his 2016 Conn Smythe didn't, nothing will.

 

[tony d]

The Selke

 

[GlitchMarner]

Hart. You can get into 5 on 5 play or how good Kucherov's team is or advanced stats that the voters won't care about, but there is no precedent of a forward being outscored by more than 25 points in a relatively healthy season (only missed three games) and winning the Hart Trophy dating all the way back to 1991. Since 1996, usually when a forward wins the Hart and his team is in the playoffs, he is also the Art Ross winner.

Hart winners since 1991:

2018: Taylor Hall - trailed the Art Ross winner by 15 points (McDavid's team missed the playoffs)
2017: Connor McDavid - won Art Ross and Pearson
2016: Patrick Kane - won Art Ross and Pearson
2015: Carey Price - goaltender
2014: Sidney Crosby - won Art Ross and Pearson
2013: Alex Ovechkin - won Rocket Richard and trailed Art Ross winner (St. Louis) by four points
2012: Evgeni Malkin - won Art Ross and Pearson
2011: Corey Perry - won Rocket Richard and trailed Art Ross winner (Daniel Sedin) by six points
2010: Henrik Sedin - won Art Ross
2009: Alex Ovechkin - won Rocket Richard and Pearson and trailed Art Ross winner (Malkin) by three points
2008: Alex Ovechkin - won Art Ross, Rocket Richard and Pearson
2007: Sidney Crosby - won Art Ross and Pearson
2006: Joe Thornton - won Art Ross
2004: Martin St. Louis - won Art Ross and Pearson
2003: Peter Forsberg - won Art Ross
2002: Carey Price - goaltender
2001: Joe Sakic - won Pearson and trailed Art Ross winner (Jagr) by three points
2000: Chris Pronger - defenseman
1999: Jaromir Jagr - won Art Ross and Pearson
1998: Dominik Hasek - goaltender
1997: Dominik Hasek - goaltender
1996: Mario Lemieux - won Art Ross and Pearson
1995: Eric Lindros - won Pearson and tied Art Ross winner (Jagr) in points but lost Art Ross due to tie-breaker
1994: Sergei Fedorov - won Pearson and Selke and trailed Art Ross winner (Gretzky) by ten points (Gretzky's team missed the playoffs)
1993: Mario Lemieux - won the Art Ross and Pearson
1992: Mark Messier - won Pearson and trailed Art Ross winner (Lemieux) by 24 points
1991: Brett Hull - won Pearson and led the NHL in goals (with 86 goals) and trailed Art Ross winner (Gretzky) by 31 points


If I was a Penguins fan, I'd just want him to end up a finalist because if he actually gets the Hart, the majority is going to consider it an extremely tainted win and start the narrative that the hockey media panders to Crosby (whether it's right or wrong, that's what will happen). It will be like what happened with Toews when he was considered a hockey media darling.

 

[ESH]

He’s not deserving of either this season, but who really even cares about the Selke?

 

[GlitchMarner]

He’s not deserving of either this season, but who really even cares about the Selke?

Doesn't he have good enough advanced stats to warrant a Selke?

I mean, at least it wouldn't seem totally random and out of nowhere, right?

If he was Kopitar or Couturier and coming off the season he had, there wouldn't be any serious discussions on whether he would or may win the Hart.

 

[NoName]

I don’t get it... when did the Selke just become the consolation prize for being the second best forward? I thought it was for the best defensive forward? While Crosby is a superstar and had a great regular season, I don’t think anyone can say he is the best two-way forward in the NHL.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I don’t get it... when did the Selke just become the consolation prize for being the second best forward? I thought it was for the best defensive forward? While Crosby is a superstar and had a great regular season, I don’t think anyone can say he is the best two-way forward in the NHL.

Yes you easily can

 

[JasonRoseEh]

He has no case for either.

 

[Mickey Marner]

If he popped a bottle of champagne into a glass perched atop his giant ass, whilst wearing latex garb.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Neither.....Its Pittsburgh

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don’t get it... when did the Selke just become the consolation prize for being the second best forward? I thought it was for the best defensive forward? While Crosby is a superstar and had a great regular season, I don’t think anyone can say he is the best two-way forward in the NHL.

The interpretation of award criteria often changes with the eras, and clearly the award has been skewed more to offense-oriented players as the years go on, possibly because of the rise of possession stats. Same with the Norris. Langway won the Norris in '83 and '84 with 32 and 33 points - think that could ever happen now? If prime Vlasic couldn't do it, I doubt it.

Crosby's work ethic, skill, and hockey IQ allow him to clean up messes in his own zone quickly, get it 200 feet from his net efficiently, and keep it there as well or better than anyone. That helps limit opposition chances considerably while creating his own (borne out by the stats), which is a pretty fair measuring stick for defense.

 

[Aladyyn]

He has no case for either.

He has a good case for both. In fact I'd consider him the leading Selke candidate, given how the voters think. He should win it this year.

 

[Rpenny]

Oilers getting a first overall pick

 

[JasonRoseEh]

He has a good case for both. In fact I'd consider him the leading Selke candidate, given how the voters think. He should win it this year.

If you consider him the leading Selke candidate you aren't looking at any of the statistics that matter and he has zero case for the Hart.

 

[Silky mitts]

I wouldn't need the feel to complain online if he won the Selke

 

[SlickHands]

Giving the Hart to anyone but Kucherov would be one of the biggest award snubs I can think of. It's not like there's some Selke candidate that just blew the rest of the league away with their arbitrarily defined two-way play.

 

[dr robbie]

He has absolutely no reason winning the Hart this year, so I'd go with that. There would be so many "Canadian bias" threads it would shut HF down.

Selke isn't really a major award and most people would just put it down as a footnote on his resume. Only the people with extreme love/hate for Crosby would care.

 

[NoName]

Yes you easily can

Ahead of players like Bergeron or Barkov? No. Crosby is still a fantastic forward, but he isn’t the best defensive forward in the game.

 

[Future GOAT]

He won't win either of them, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

neither would. If Matthews did, on the other hand...

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Ahead of players like Bergeron or Barkov? No. Crosby is still a fantastic forward, but he isn’t the best defensive forward in the game.

You can add Coutiere and Monahan pretty confidently here as well. Like I said, Crosby has no case for the Selke other than Pens fans going gaga, but that doesn't mean he hasn't been awesome this year at both ends.

The Hart is Kucherov in a landslide and the rest really don't matter.

 

[Drew4u]

What makes Barkov better defensively than Crosby? Any actual stats?

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

Do you talk about anything other than Crosby?