Speculation: What will Canes do at deadline?

[Finlandia WOAT]

IDK, on the one hand, this reminds me of the same kind of logic from people who think gorillas on skates will "protect the young guys", which one can sufficiently plug and replace with "protect our egos". Brassard cost too much, they didn't want to carry a 3rd goalie (side note: which is dumb, since one of the goalies at the moment is an auto loss and a putative, albeit vicariously diagnosed, headcase) and everyone else either didn't fit or was a depth player. At the core, the Hurricanes need a starting goalie and a center/elite scoring talent. Getting Maroon for a 3rd doesn't solve that (though he'd be a perfect Peters player/character guy).

OTOH, it's a bad look to the locker room, on which I cannot comment, and to the fanbase, on which I can comment, that management has decided to throw in the towel, if it works out, great, but we're not expecting it. That's loser talk. That's rationalization. Florida, New Jersey, Islanders, CBJ, all of them could have come up with excuses to do nothing, but they chose otherwise.

You can't control the deals available in the NHL, but you can control your attitude to the deals that crop up, and Francis' attitude was so obviously defeatist that it concerns me.

I haven't turned on Francis yet, but this is loser talk, and faking it until you make it is well worth a 4th.

On a side note: if the 'Canes can get Quenneville, Peters is gone. Sorry Pastor Bill, you did your best. I haven't given up on Francis, but if they re-sign Ryan, he needs to go.

On another side note: Peters has shown that, if he thinks a guy can play, he'll give him all the minutes he (the kid) can take. Pesce/Slavin, Hanifin as an 18 year old, McGinn, Darling. So, re: Wallmark, it could be that Peters has seen Wallmark in practice, has listened to the scouting reports and concluded that he is not enough of an upgrade over Ryan to give Wallmark Ryan's minutes. And I haven't really seen anything from Wallmark to indicate otherwise. I wanted to get this out there because it seems people are starting to form a narrative that Peters won't play young guys unless forced, which isn't true.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Bull****. I guarantee they would have been as much, if not more damning. We would have heard: "LOL, Francis too scared to make a big deal." "Great, when other teams are adding real talent, we're going dumpster diving." "We need a top 6 playmaking center, and Francis spends a 7th round pick on a 4th liner." and "Great, more waiver wire trash keeping Zykov, Saarela, Foegele, Wallmark from coming up and helping this team." etc, etc, etc...

I have no issue with the complaints. People are rightfully frustrated. Francis didn't fix the goalie situation (again), and didn't give this team enough talent to not be in this position at the deadline in the first place. But let's not act like if Francis traded a 7th round pick for Shore, we wouldn't have heard as much, if not more complaining, because we all know it would have been the case.

You're right, we would have heard a lot of "LOL, Shore for a 7th is all he could do" type comments. And like I said, those would seem valid for people who would rather go in the direction of a major trade. But there would be a simple and equally valid rebuttal: "The big trades involved trading core assets, and we aren't in a position to do that." And we would go round and round for a couple of days.

But instead, we see Francis unwilling to move a 4th for a middling roster player; unwilling to move a 7th for a replacement level player like Shore; unwilling to make a simple waiver claim on Stewart. You can generalize that out to a distressing conclusion; that Francis really wasn't willing to do anything to make this team better in the short term, even moves with effectively zero risk. That he basically just froze up like Scott Darling on a slapshot. What's the defense for that? What do you even say to a guy like Justin Williams, who signed here specifically with the expectation that this was a team ready to make the jump? Or to the 20-year STM who's about to get a meaningless playoff invoice in the mail? How do you look those people in the eye and tell them you're confident in your decision to just sit there and let rival teams control the day?

That's where it becomes much more damning to just sit there and do nothing. You can't even claim you were trying to hit the target and missed. You didn't even take a shot. Who actually wants to play for someone like that?

 

[The Stranger]

But I’ll reply to the Brassard question. I think the return from the Canes would have been a bit different, don’t you? A conceivably better 1st rounder than the Pens would have negated the impressiveness of the prospect. Maybe it could have been a 2nd if the prospect was BETTER than the Pens’. And the roster player was a throw in, Pittsburgh knew that Ottawa was flipping Cole. That was a salary cap thing. Point is, I’m just curious if the effort was made on Brassard, as he is an inexpensive and fairly decent 2C that was locked up for another year. And you could flip him next deadline for some good assets if it didn’t work out the way you thought.

After the Sens flipped Cole for 3rd...cancelling out 3rds and contracts, it was effectively Brassard for a late 2018 1st, a prospect (drafted 55 in 2016), and 3rd round pick.

It's a fair question though...was RF in on Brassard and if so, what did he offer.

I’m guessing an effort was made, Ottawa wanted a 1st, Francis wanted to lottery protect it, they said no and that was that. Brassard is exactly the kind of player they should have been in on.

This is a good guess.

 

[GoldiFox]

The best decision is the right decision. The next best decision is the wrong decision. The worst decision is indecision.

Seems like a whole lot of indecision going around. I can't accept that their final decision yesterday was "Literally nothing available can make this team better long or short term" when every other Metro franchise made some decision in some direction. Sitting on your hands in perpetuity is not a strategy. Francis's comments on Darling were "Sometimes goalies follow up bad years with good years". Oh really? So that's the plan? I'm a bit tired of the "wait and see" approach.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

We'll just not agree on this Tarheel. If he trades a 7th for Shore or make a waiver claim, it's signifies absolutely nothing to the team. These guys know which guys will and won't help their team and know what the needs are. A move like that doesn't even move the needle and they know it. That's the definition of "doing something just to do something."

Also, we have people saying "Why didn't we at least trade Ryan or Stempniak for a pick then?!!!" Wouldn't that be even more damning for the players on the team? Wouldn't trading a roster player for a pick signify even more that he's thrown in the towel than not trading a 7th round pick for Shore?

Anyhow, as I said, I get the frustration and understand the complaints, just disagree that going after some of the players you mentioned just to "do something".

 

[Stickpucker]

RF gave up...RF is clueless...HFCanes is a tough crowd.

If you were RF, would you have sent the Canes 2018 1st, a prospect, and a roster player for Brassard?

The prices weren't that high...really...1st rounders for basically anyone half-decent...seems like standard TDL price premiums to me....a 1st 2nd and 3rd for Tatar...oy vey...he's just a bishop.

We're a tough crowd? If anything were gentle with these f***ing pantywaists. We suck. We've sucked longer than the entire rest of the league. We've seen no progress and have no high end talent to show for it.

I see even seen Rangers fans harder on their management than we are and they've been at least 6 tiers above us for the last decade!!!!

 

[Stickpucker]

What good would any of those guys have done? Mrazek maybe but I doubt they had any interest in carrying 3 goalies.

The Canes don’t have a problem with lack of marginal players, they have a problem of a lack of really good players. None of those guys are difference makers and difference makers are what they need.

You realize Vanek would be the 3rd leading score on this squad and only cost 1.6m and an ahl player? PDG for 41 point winger would be a godsend to this team.

 

[DaveG]

I've always said this about JR. I've never particularly liked his season by season "GMing" but he was a masterful in his approach to taking advantage of the introduction of a salary cap. He saw an opportunity and played it to a Stanley cup.

I felt Francis had a similar opportunity, albeit lesser, with expansion. I'm not sure it was his own inactivity or if we just couldn't make deals due to Vegas aggressively colluding with teams to prevent trades but it's his greatest missed opportunity. It's even more high-lighted when you look at the rare quality of tenders and we left with an expensive-ass backup.

This may have been what he was counting on that ended up not playing out because of the way Vegas was doing business. Smart move on GMGM's part but if that's the case you need to have a backup plan so you don't shoot yourself in the dick when it comes to fixing what arguably the biggest (and undoubtedly at worst 2nd biggest) hole on the team heading in to the season.

 

[geehaad]

Outside of Mrazak, if Francis had gone after one of those guys listed, this thread would still be filled with complaints, just different complaints.

Abso-f***ing-lutely.

 

[Joe McGrath]

You realize Vanek would be the 3rd leading score on this squad and only cost 1.6m and an ahl player? PDG for 41 point winger would be a godsend to this team.

You realize Vanek is an older Skinner who plays zero defense on a team that can’t afford to shelter another LW. Vanek is kind of interesting but there’s a reason he gets traded for next to nothing despite the talent he has.

 

[Stickpucker]

I would have traded PDG for Vanek
Picked up Stewart from waivers
Waived Darling to AHL and paid 3rd 4th picks for Mrazek

Keep defense the same

Forwards:
TT Staal Williams
Aho Lindy Vanek
Skinner Rask Stewart
McGinn Ryan Stempy

Goalies
Mrazek
Ward

I think that looks much better than what we have today and cost nothing of value.

 

[Stickpucker]

You realize Vanek is an older Skinner who plays zero defense on a team that can’t afford to shelter another LW. Vanek is kind of interesting but there’s a reason he gets traded for next to nothing despite the talent he has.

So then we score more than 1 goal a game while giving up more. What does it matter we aren't making the playoffs....at least it would have given us a reason to watch games while cost in nothing of value.

I also realize Vanek is not a Peters type player....but neither is 75 percent of the roster.

 

[The Faulker 27]

The TDL of 2018. A day which will live in infamy. At least there'll be something else to piss, and moan about after tonight's game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The TDL of 2018. A day which will live in infamy.

Can you imagine the state of this board if we had been able to actually make posts through all of that?

 

[Bub]

Can you imagine the state of this board if we had been able to actually make posts through all of that?

LOL right? We'd be down a few members today due to rage-strokes.

 

[The Jerk Store]

I would have traded for Hartman. Because our bottom six, with the exception of McGinn, are a bunch of candy-asses.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I would have traded for Hartman. Because our bottom six, with the exception of McGinn, are a bunch of candy-asses.

Hartman got a 1st round pick+ from Nashville. No way we should have attempted to match that.

 

[GoldiFox]

William Karlsson was a bottom-6er on Columbus before Vegas took him. I’m not saying Hartman is going to be a 30+ goal scorer, but he’s young enough to grow into a top-6 forward. Plus he plays with a nasty disposition. He’s a nastier, better Brock McGinn.

I think Chicago might have been valuing Nashville’s 1st similar to Carolina’s. If it was a requirement without conditions then Francis would have been silly to trade his 1st this year given how bad the team currently is.

 

[The Faulker 27]

It'd be awesome if we kept up with all the players we should have acquired, for the rest of the season. Ya know, so when they do great things on other teams we get to slip deeper and deeper into the pit of despair.

 

[NotOpie]

So many metaphors!!!!

They were so bad, you have to classify them as Metathrees.

The Canes don’t have a problem with lack of marginal players, they have a problem of a lack of really good players.

The Canes problem is lack of scoring and marginal to bad goaltending....well, okay, just bad goaltending. I bitched and moaned a bit about not considering making a move for Mrazek, but I didn't expect that.

I would, however, have likely made the Vanek move, because as I've said, the cost wasn't particularly high, the message sent to the room would have been more of one that says, "we went out and got a guy who was better, so you'd better be better", and it would have upgraded our scoring.

I might have even done the Tatar deal as I believe we could have offered a comparable, but different set of assets, for a pretty decent scoring threat, who has more term and could help us longer term. I'm not sure it would have required a 2018 1st if we would have added a good young prospect (which we have a few); I think we could have offered a 2019 1st, a prospect like Kuokkanen and another 2nd rounder and that would have been a very competitive bid. Even if we didn't make the playoffs this season, we'd be more skilled going into next season.

I'm not ready to give up on Francis and not calling for Peters' head. But some things need to change both player personnel-wise as well as player utilization/system-wise. While I think there remains too much complacency and too much acceptance of failure, this team would still remain a huge long shot to make this season's post-season. I just don't like the appearance of accepting that outcome with 20 games left.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think they identified areas of weakness last year, and addressed them in the off season. Some worked and some didn’t. I suspect the same process will happen this year and we’ll see the changes we expected now in the off season. The deadline is the worst place to make the moves we need. Tatar was the only real type of player we should be making “big” moves for, and look at his price! That’s a deadline price and there’s no reason to pay it.

If they make few moves in the offseason (if they aren’t fired) that make sense I’m way more likely to join you guys with the pitchforks. Moves are made in the summer, and you are likely stuck with the consequences all season. I wouldn’t have traded for Kane unless he arrived with a new contract. That’s likely the reason we weren’t involved, he probably would never sign with us at all let alone now. There was no space for Mrazek and the whole “demote your 4 million dollar goalie to the Ahl” is comical and smacks of some over expectations of our new owner. That isn’t Francis “not being creative” or “sitting on his thumbs”, that’s him playing his best two goalies and knowing spending millions more on a third goalie is neither financially responsible nor something his owner will think highly of.

He demoted Kruger, he isn’t afraid to make necessary moves. Darling is something we are stuck with until buyout or someone gives us an equally shitty contract back in a trade.

The over reaction here has been impressive even by our standards. This was exactly what was always going to happen. Even if we were contending I doubt Rf would give up a first or big prospects at the deadline. Maybe further down the line but not yet.

 

[sheriff bart]

I think they identified areas of weakness last year, and addressed them in the off season. Some worked and some didn’t. I suspect the same process will happen this year and we’ll see the changes we expected now in the off season. The deadline is the worst place to make the moves we need. Tatar was the only real type of player we should be making “big” moves for, and look at his price! That’s a deadline price and there’s no reason to pay it.

If they make few moves in the offseason (if they aren’t fired) that make sense I’m way more likely to join you guys with the pitchforks. Moves are made in the summer, and you are likely stuck with the consequences all season. I wouldn’t have traded for Kane unless he arrived with a new contract. That’s likely the reason we weren’t involved, he probably would never sign with us at all let alone now. There was no space for Mrazek and the whole “demote your 4 million dollar goalie to the Ahl” is comical and smacks of some over expectations of our new owner. That isn’t Francis “not being creative” or “sitting on his thumbs”, that’s him playing his best two goalies and knowing spending millions more on a third goalie is neither financially responsible nor something his owner will think highly of.

He demoted Kruger, he isn’t afraid to make necessary moves. Darling is something we are stuck with until buyout or someone gives us an equally ****ty contract back in a trade.

The over reaction here has been impressive even by our standards. This was exactly what was always going to happen. Even if we were contending I doubt Rf would give up a first or big prospects at the deadline. Maybe further down the line but not yet.

I just have to disagree with your opinion on the goalie situation. Mrazek was owed $500k the rest of the year. Darling's $4M is there no matter where he is playing (AHL or NHL). Is a $500k increase the rest of the year worth it to try to avoid several auto losses with the way Darling is playing now? I think it would be for ticket sales alone. I know that I have no interest in attending any more games this season, even at $97 for all the remaining home games.

I agree with you on the major deals. This is the wrong time of the year to do that.

 

[sfksfk]

I would have traded PDG for Vanek
Picked up Stewart from waivers
Waived Darling to AHL and paid 3rd 4th picks for Mrazek

Keep defense the same

Forwards:
TT Staal Williams
Aho Lindy Vanek
Skinner Rask Stewart
McGinn Ryan Stempy

Goalies
Mrazek
Ward

I think that looks much better than what we have today and cost nothing of value.

not getting mrazek, or even trying broke the team.

 

[GoldiFox]

I think they identified areas of weakness last year, and addressed them in the off season. Some worked and some didn’t. I suspect the same process will happen this year and we’ll see the changes we expected now in the off season. The deadline is the worst place to make the moves we need. Tatar was the only real type of player we should be making “big” moves for, and look at his price! That’s a deadline price and there’s no reason to pay it.

If they make few moves in the offseason (if they aren’t fired) that make sense I’m way more likely to join you guys with the pitchforks. Moves are made in the summer, and you are likely stuck with the consequences all season. I wouldn’t have traded for Kane unless he arrived with a new contract. That’s likely the reason we weren’t involved, he probably would never sign with us at all let alone now. There was no space for Mrazek and the whole “demote your 4 million dollar goalie to the Ahl” is comical and smacks of some over expectations of our new owner. That isn’t Francis “not being creative” or “sitting on his thumbs”, that’s him playing his best two goalies and knowing spending millions more on a third goalie is neither financially responsible nor something his owner will think highly of.

He demoted Kruger, he isn’t afraid to make necessary moves. Darling is something we are stuck with until buyout or someone gives us an equally ****ty contract back in a trade.

The over reaction here has been impressive even by our standards. This was exactly what was always going to happen. Even if we were contending I doubt Rf would give up a first or big prospects at the deadline. Maybe further down the line but not yet.

Seems like you are at odds with yourself.

the whole “demote your 4 million dollar goalie to the Ahl” is comical and smacks of some over expectations of our new owner.

Darling is something we are stuck with until buyout

You think demoting Darling to the AHL for the rest of the year and giving a pending UFA a try would be "comical" because it expects too much from our owner, but a buyout of Darling's contract is the likely end-game? Isn't that essentially the same outcome?

I don't see how paying Mrazek ~$1 million to finish the year here (to see if he could take over as starter next year) relates to whether Darling is demoted or bought out. I could see your stance if you were on the side of "Darling will be our starter next year", but it appears you aren't saying that? What's the difference if Darling is sent down right now and bought out vs. sitting in the press box for 20 more games and being bought out? Both will be very expensive for Dundon. Signing a bust to a massive contract is always expensive. That doesn't really have anything to do with testing out Mrazek's mettle.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t feel at odds with myself because I don’t think he’s getting bought out. At all. I think he’s here to stay to tell the truth. I’m just saying that he’s here until one of these other resolutions happens or Ward moves so the talk of another goalie is pretty moot. I don’t think at this point they were ever even considering a third goalie. I agree with it too.

Another factor is the effect of having three goalies heading into next year would have on his value. I mean that in general not just Mrazek who’s obviously FA. Right now the only way to move Darling is to take it on the chin. Heading into next season with three goalies would make his value even less as everyone know we are desperate to move one prior to the season.

Mrazek is an interesting case as it is. He apparently had a lot of attitude over the last couple of years as his ascent went sideways. They were pretty desperate for him to take over and his play didn’t suffice and his attitude made him someone they were completely comfortable walking away from - when they need a new goalie at least as bad as we do. Peters would know him well. It’s not surprising they wouldn’t touch him with a ten foot pole. A lot of teams wouldn’t I’m sure. In fact they left him for expansion and offered him to the league and no one bit. Philly took a chance NOW due to injuries in a year they feel they can make a run once they’re in. There’s little reason to think we can make the same run based on what I’ve seen.

Trading futures for an iffy goalie when we already have two with this team seemed highly unlikely so I don’t get the hand wringing.

Luke himself a month ago tore this organization up and down in a way I don’t think I’ve seen before, and at it’s core was RF’s lack of player for player trades and general lack of aggressiveness. The day before the deadline Luke himself said nothing was happening and he agreed that it was exactly the right choice. This was the guy most likely to rage away if we did nothing, and he was totes cool with it. Yet we’re freaking out because we think there was something big on the table for us? I don’t view Luke as any be all end all resource but he generally agrees with all who are upset these last few months, yet he doesn’t agree with those on the deadline at all. I agree with him. The deadline had little to nothing to offer us, and the prices are the major reason for that.

If the cost of a 20 goal guy who’s signed past next year is the first three picks in this draft - we shouldn’t be acquiring a guy like that right now. To me the goalie issue was never even on the table. They weren’t picking one up, and they probably never thought highly of Mrazek. His success likely has as much to do with the fact he’s playing behind a much better team as anything else.