Why didn't the 2010-2013 Calgary Flames win more?

Nerowoy nora tolad

Registered User
May 9, 2018
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Gladstone, Australia
So time for your daily "Why didnt <team> win more" post, now that the 2010-2013 Calgary Flames era is old enough to be considered history.

So anyways, the Flames had their miracle year in 2003-04, the lockout happens, and the 2006-2009 version of the team loses four straight reasonably close first round playoff series to Anaheim, Detroit, San Jose, and a young Blackhawks team one year away from winning its first cup. Obviously a deeper playoff run would have been nice in one of those years, but the Flames just had the misfortune of drawing a very difficult matchup every time.

What always confused me at the time though, was how they managed to then miss the playoffs for four years straight from 2010 to 2013. The Flames of that era had a good if not great goaltender in Kiprusoff, a regular 30-50 goal scorer in Iginla, lots of scoring depth in players like Jokinen, Conroy, Glencross, Langkow, etc, a reasonably strong D corps including a young Giordano (cant seem to recall if he was considered a top defenseman in the NHL like he was 2-3 years ago), and Bouwmeester, who I recall was not considered quite elite, but still above average for defencemen in that era. If my memory serves me correctly, the 2010-13 Flames were also considered quite tough for the time, and I cant pick out a glaring weakness at any position. What was it with those Flames? I wouldn't have considered them true cup contenders at the time, but they seemed like they should have been more than capable of scraping into the playoffs in at least one of those years.
 

Rangediddy

The puck was in
Oct 28, 2011
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Most of the names you mentioned as being good quality depth were on the decline. Jokinen had like 3 games where he looked like the star he was in Florida (probably the first 3 games as a Flame if I remember correctly). Conroy never was a star player, just a good guy to have on your team, but also at the end of his career (probably a great 3rd line center that had to play as a 1st liner). Langkow had career years after the lockout, but like you said, Flames ran into great teams in playoffs), Glencross was a great role player but never a world beater. Giordano wasn't a regular until 2009 and even then he was bottom 4 player. Bouwmeester couldn't thrive in the systems the coaches made him play in so he was hardly a factor.

At the end of the day, the Flames ran into the Ducks with Getzlaf, Perry, Neidermeyer, Selanne, Andy MacDonald & Giguere. Then Detroit with prime Datsyuk & Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Lang, Franzen, Kronwall, even Hasek! Khabibulin had the Flames number since jump street so there goes that playoff round against the Hawks.

Mix in about 37 coaching changes and multiple stints for Conroy, Jokinen, Cammaleri, Tanguay & Lundmark and the team just never could find the identity it had in 2003/2004, nor could Iginla & Kipper carry them through the other solid teams in the West.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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What’s this now? Curtis Glencross? Glencross did nothing.

And while I know O. Jokinen scored quite a bunch of goals in Florida, and even had a 90 points season, he’s obviously not a guy you would want even as your 2C if you’re in for a serious run at the Cup.

The only team winning Cups lately with a somewhat suspect C depth is probably Chicago, but they still had Bolland for two years who was a great playoff performer (obviously levels over Jokinen).
 
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ESH

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Jun 19, 2011
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Terrible drafting during the 2000s meant that the Flames had no good young players on cheap contracts to fill out the depth
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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Wasn't a Flames fan, so I can't really contribute anything real precise. However, from an outsiders perspective I seem to remember that the "insiders" constantly pointed to not having a good enough center to park next to Iginla as the main thing holding them back. Which is what lead to a somewhat revolving door with the acquisitions of guys like Olli Jokinen, Matt Stajan and Brendan Morrison.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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The Flames of that era had a good if not great goaltender in Kiprusoff,

I cant pick out a glaring weakness at any position. What was it with those Flames? I wouldn't have considered them true cup contenders at the time, but they seemed like they should have been more than capable of scraping into the playoffs in at least one of those years.

Between the lockout and end of 12-13, I always found the Flames depth behind Kiprusoff comical. I always looked at teams opening rosters and wondered if the Flames front office even considered the possibility that Kiprusoff might get hurt longterm and they'd have to rely on the cheap warm body they signed simply to sit on the bench and start once every few weeks. Phillippe Sauve, MacLennan, McIlhinney, etc etc.

Look at 2011-12.... In the 14 games that Kiprusoff didn't start, Leland Irving and Henrik Karlsson each had ONE regulation win (Karlssons not coming until game #82...) and netted the Flames 9 of a possible 28 points... They missed the playoffs by 5 points.

The next year Kiprusoff has a rough start to the season and then goes down longterm and they've got less than 10 games of NHL experience in Irving and AHL lifer Danny Taylor before they have to turn to Joey MacDonald on waivers...
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

Registered User
May 9, 2018
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Gladstone, Australia
Between the lockout and end of 12-13, I always found the Flames depth behind Kiprusoff comical. I always looked at teams opening rosters and wondered if the Flames front office even considered the possibility that Kiprusoff might get hurt longterm and they'd have to rely on the cheap warm body they signed simply to sit on the bench and start once every few weeks. Phillippe Sauve, MacLennan, McIlhinney, etc etc.

HEY HEY HEY

Watch it. McElhinney is bae

In all seriousness thats a pretty good point though
 
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DJJones

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Nov 18, 2014
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Drafting was probably league worst. No number 1 center. And they settled for mediocrity rather than rebuild sooner
 

Hoser

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Aug 7, 2005
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What always confused me at the time though, was how they managed to then miss the playoffs for four years straight from 2010 to 2013. The Flames of that era had a good if not great goaltender in Kiprusoff, a regular 30-50 goal scorer in Iginla, lots of scoring depth in players like Jokinen, Conroy, Glencross, Langkow, etc, a reasonably strong D corps including a young Giordano (cant seem to recall if he was considered a top defenseman in the NHL like he was 2-3 years ago), and Bouwmeester, who I recall was not considered quite elite, but still above average for defencemen in that era. If my memory serves me correctly, the 2010-13 Flames were also considered quite tough for the time, and I cant pick out a glaring weakness at any position. What was it with those Flames? I wouldn't have considered them true cup contenders at the time, but they seemed like they should have been more than capable of scraping into the playoffs in at least one of those years.

What afflicted the Flames of those years is what has afflicted most mediocre teams: miserable consistency and a lack of meaningful depth.

The "reasonably strong D-corps" you speak of was not particular strong at all, post-2007. To put it into perspective in '05-'06—easily the best year they've had since 2004—they likely had the stingiest D in the NHL, with Robyn Regehr, Jordan Leopold, Roman Hamrlik, rookie Dion Phaneuf, Rhett Warrener and Andrew Ference. In reality neither Phaneuf nor Ference were actually very good on defence, but with Miikka Kiprusoff behind them they were bailed out often. Kipper was... just amazing; so, so great. That team was screwed without him; he covered a preposterous amount of gaffes and brain farts.

Up front they weren't really all that great either. Iginla was far and away the best forward on the team, with Daymond Langkow a pretty clear no. 2 and Kristian Huselius no. 3, but past that was a jumble of players who really weren't much more than third-liners at best. Lots of mediocre players like Chuck Kobasew, Matthew Lombardi, and Shean Donovan filling out the middle six, with pretty good defensive guys like Stephane Yelle and Marcus Nilson slotted in there where they honestly didn't belong. Fourth liners were goons like Chris Simon and Darren McCarty.

The bench was short, very short. On defence Hamrlik, Warrener and Regehr missed 66 games between them, and the gaps were filled with old-man Bryan Marchment, Robyn Regehr's little brother Ritchie, and cups of coffee from a decrepit Cale Hulse, Steve Montador and some kid named Giordano. Up front Huselius, Lombardi and centre Steve Reinprecht missed lots of time, pressing the likes of Jason Wiemer, Mike Leclerc, Jamie Lundmark and AHLer Craig MacDonald into service. Goaltending depth was laughable, with Kipper being backed up by Phil Sauve and an atrocious Brian Boucher.

Fast forward to the next year and Jim Playfair replaced Darryl Sutter as coach, and he employed a much more open strategy and style of play. Goal-scoring jumped quite a bit, but so too did goals against. Jordan Leopold was traded to Colorado for Alex Tanguay, adding much needed scoring punch but creating a gaping hole in the defensive corps. Leopold was replaced by Andrei Zyuzin, who wasn't much of a factor at either end of the ice and played bottom-pairing minutes. The team relied heavily on Phaneuf and Hamrlik, and Phaneuf had to rely heavily on Hamrlik to cover his poor positioning and decisions. Sutter acquired Brad Stuart from the Bruins, giving up Andrew Ference and Chuck Kobasew to do so, and it didn't substantially help. Up front Tanguay added another offensive weapon to the team but past that, again, the middle-six were quite barren. Matthew Lombardi had peaked as a 45-50 point player, and from there you had a hodge-podge of 'meh': old-and-busted Tony Amonte and Jeff Friesen, Jamie Lundmark, Dustin Boyd, David Moss... They weren't putting up much in the way of scoring and were terrrrrrrrrible liabilities otherwise.

The next year Mike Keenan comes in as coach and the team plays an even more fast and loose game. The once powerful defence is populated by the likes of Anders Eriksson and Jim Vandermeer. Cory Sarich is also brought in, but he's slow and essentially a poor man's carbon copy of Regehr. Iginla, Langkow, Tanguay and Huselius continue to be the only consistent offensive weapons, while the rest of the forward corps continues to consist of the likes of Lombardi, old-and-busted Craig Conroy and Owen Nolan, David Moss, Dustin Boyd, Eric Nystrom and Wayne Primeau. Curtis McElhinney began his long tenure as Kipper's seldom-used backup.

By '09-'10 things get desperate and Keenan is replaced by Darryl Sutter's brother Brent, who reinstitutes a tighter defensive game. Scoring correspondingly drops. They become a boring dump-and-chase team. Consistent scoring depth behind Iginla is non-existent; the team is reliant on terribly inconsistent players like Olli Jokinen, Curtis Glencross, Rene Bourque and Nigel Dawes. Dion Phaneuf's poor positioning and decision-making are finally jettisoned in a piss-poor trade for a smorgasbord of players the Flames didn't need, and Matt Stajan is put on the top line as the next contestant for "centre-who-has-chemistry-with-Iginla" (guess what? he doesn't); Jokinen gets the boot to the Rangers. Jay Bouwmeester, their biggest acquisition in the off-season, does not play Sutter's dump-and-chase game well and any semblance of the player he was in Florida is gone. Giordano, Bouwmeester and Regehr are the only half-way decent defencemen on the team; Sarich, Ian White and Adam Pardy round out the top six. Kipper was night-in-night-out the Flames' best player, keeping the team somewhat respectable in the standings.

In '10-'11 they mercifully put Stajan further down the lineup, but replace him with... Olli Jokinen. :huh: Alex Tanguay is brought back too, and they bring in old'n'busted Brendan Morrison. The other players acquired in the trade for Phaneuf—Niklas Hagman and White—are tire fires. (Thankfully they let Jamal Mayers walk in the off-season.) Tanguay regains some of his past form with Iginla but neither Jokinen nor Morrison are "the answer" at centre on the top line. (Langkow is hurt all year, but hadn't been in top form for a couple years at that point anyway.) Bourque and Glencross continue to anchor a supremely inconsistent second line with boat anchors like Ales Kotalik and goons like Tom Kostopoulos and Tim Jackman dotting the rest of the lineup. On defence Bouwmeester quietly anchors a mediocre corps with Giordano (who was already the best defenceman on the team as of the year before), now very slow and ineffectual Regehr and Sarich, and Steve Staios and Anton Babchuk (whom they acquired for Ian White).

Brent Sutter continues to force the team to play a style that the players simply aren't good at playing (especially Bouwmeester) for the next couple seasons and Darryl Sutter continues to plug the holes in the lineup with players who are not really the solution to their problems. Giordano and Bouwmeester are the only good defencemen on the team; Regehr was traded to Buffalo for Chris Butler (who reeeeeeeeeeeeeally never merited the second-pairing minutes he got), and they're complemented with a very young T.J. Brodie, very old Scott Hannan, and very slow Cory Sarich. The forward depth gets even more shallow, with players like Lee Stempniak and Blake Comeau filling out the second line and a dog's breakfast of crap like Hagman, David Moss and Blair Jones the rest. Kipper playing god-mode can't save this team from ending up .500ish and just shy of a playoff berth.

'12-'13 was a tire-fire of a season. Bob Hartley replaced Brent Sutter and vets like Iginla, Kiprusoff and Tanguay clearly didn't want to be there anymore. In the 33 games under Hartley that Bouwmeester played it's the only time we see a shadow of the player he once was before coming to Calgary; in a panic move to get something for him as they begin The Rebuild® new GM Jay Feaster offloads him to St. Louis for peanuts. The first forward line ends up consisting of Mike Cammalleri, Curtis Glencross and Lee Stempniak. (Yeesh!) New acquisitions like Jiri Hudler and Dennis Wideman seem alright, but "best-player-not-in-the-NHL" Roman Cervenka is a dud on arrival, and beyond Mikael Backlund the forward corps is garbage.



In retrospect it's almost miraculous how close they were to making the playoffs in 2010, '11 and '12, given how mediocre the team as a whole was. The difference-maker was Miikka Kiprusoff: they were nothing without him. I don't mean to drag the "Was Kiprusoff really as good as he was pegged?" thread into this, but in short: no...


... he was better.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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What went wrong with the post-Lock Out Calgary Flames? They lacked depth, just as they had during their otherwise successful 2003-04 season and Cup run.

Why did they lack depth? Partly, they were still recovering from unfair League economics of the pre-Lock Out, which had crippled them financially. But also they were into long-term suffering of many bad moves by management.

Consider the Flames of 1999-2000, four years before the Cup run. This squad, which produced .470 hockey and missed the playoffs, had on its roster:
- Jarome Iginla, 22
- Valeri Bure, 25
- Marc Savard, 22
- Martin St.Louis, 24
- Jean-Sebastian Giguere, 22

Valeri Bure, who had led the team in scoring in 2000 (35 goals) and was third on the team in 2001, was traded for Rob Niedermayer, who appeared in only 111 games, going -28. The Flames then traded him in 2003 for two guys who did absolutely nothing. In essence, then, the Flames traded their 26-year-old recent team leading scorer... for nothing (unless you think Rob Niedermayer did anything of importance, but I can't see that he did).

Marc Savard, who was second to Iggy in team scoring in 2001, and who would go on to have five All-Star level seasons in a row for Atlanta and Boston (three times top-10 in scoring), was traded in late 2002 to Atlanta... for a player who never played a game.

Martin St.Louis, a future multiple NHL scoring leader, Hart winner, Cup champ, and Hall of Famer, they let go... for nothing.

Jean-Sebastian Giguere, a future Conn Smythe winner and a Cup champ, they traded to Anaheim for a 2nd-round pick they then gave to Washington. That is, they traded him for... nothing.


The real miracle is how the Flames mismanaged so badly c.2001-02 and still made it to the Finals in '04. But those moves really created a lack of depth later on.
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
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Consider the Flames of 1999-2000, four years before the Cup run. This squad, which produced .470 hockey and missed the playoffs, had on its roster:
- Jarome Iginla, 22
- Valeri Bure, 25
- Marc Savard, 22
- Martin St.Louis, 24
- Jean-Sebastian Giguere, 22

Wow, that's a lot of mustard there. I'd like to say that is just poor management to let those guys go but no one predicted St. Louis would have a HHOF career back in 2000. Heck, I remember on these very boards being laughed at in 2007 for telling people that St. Louis was going to finish with a HHOF career.

Okay, back to the OP. The truth is, the Flames had that miracle run in 2004 for one reason, it was a miracle, a Cinderella run of sorts. Outside of 2004 the Flames have been the Flames more or less the same for 25 years. Never the worst team in the league, but only good enough to get into the playoffs and never thought to do some damage. Honestly this was just a product of Iginla carrying them as well as he did throughout his career and that peak season in 2006 for Kipper. Quick, name a good center Iginla played with in his career. If you said Craig Conroy, so did everyone else, and that's just the point.
 

Terry Yake

Registered User
Aug 5, 2013
26,845
15,331
they ran into a very hot ducks team that made it all the way to the WCF in 06 but still managed to take them 7 games
 

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