What was the rationale behind Kariya and Selanne going to Colorado in 2003?

[Passchendaele]

They wanted to win the Cup?

Sounds fair. Until you remember that Patrick Roy retired on May 28 of that year (i.e. way before the FA Market opened).

From that moment on, the Avalanche was stuck with David Aebischer as their #1 goaltender. Sure, he had a pretty good regular season afterwards, but it was basically a crapshoot at this point as far as his reliability as a #1 was concerned at this time, having never played more than 26 games in a year.

In his later Habs-days, he was one of the worst goalies I'd seen with the team. It was almost comical.

The Red Wings sounded like a more logical choice at the time.. They had Joseph + Hasek (though I don't remember if he announed his comeback before or after the pair signed) and had just added D. Hatcher to their d-corps.

Click to read more...

 

[Doctor No]

Some quotes from the New York Times article (I picked quotes specific to the items you mentioned where applicable):
HOCKEY; The Avalanche Signs Kariya and Selanne

"When we both became free agents, we made a hockey decision," Kariya said at a news conference. "We both said, 'Forget about the money, where's the place we want to play?' And Colorado jumped out at both of us immediately. So we made things work monetarily."

"There is so much talent here," Kariya said of Colorado. "To play with guys like Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg and Rob Blake and Adam Foote, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity."

The retirement of goaltender Patrick Roy, who had an $8.5 million salary, gave the Avalanche room to sign the two free agents.

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

I think the biggest thing was which center they would get to play with. In Colorado, they'd either get to play with Forsberg or Sakic. There was no guarantee in Detroit with Fedorov as a free agent, Yzerman way past his prime, and Datsyuk being a bit of an unknown talent. Ottawa wasn't very deep down the middle. Dallas' centers were aging. St. Louis didn't have anyone enticing after Doug Weight. New Jersey didn't have any top flight centers. Neither did the Flyers. Tampa Bay would probably have been a good option in hindsight but they were young and unproven prior to the 03-04 season. Looking at all that, Colorado seemed like the best option.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

one of those situations where the hockey gods smite the bejeezus out of you

 

[sr edler]

I had a hunch it wouldn’t work out. Selänne came off two seasons in SJ where he hadn’t hit 30 goals or 65 points, and his knees were busted. And randomly throwing all star players together like that doesn’t work a lot of the time. Bure/Mogilny didn’t work out in Van. Mogilny/Linden did though (one year). This was at the end of the DPE and both players had lost some of their late 90s magic/health.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I had a hunch it wouldn’t work out. Selänne came off two seasons in SJ where he hadn’t hit 30 goals or 65 points, and his knees were busted. And randomly throwing all star players together like that doesn’t work a lot of the time. Bure/Mogilny didn’t work out in Van. Mogilny/Linden did though (one year). This was at the end of the DPE and both players had lost some of their late 90s magic/health.

mogilny/ronning

their LW was roman oksiuta for the first half of the year, tikkanen for the second half

linden played with gelinas and russ courtnall

 

[Talisman]

was it there documentary by Espn 30 for 30 that of colorado where it took place that years with Kariya/selanne!!.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Important to note that Kariya and Selanne had the same agent as Forsberg and Sakic: Don Baizley. Baizley insisted that it was just a coincidence that they landed in the same place, but Vancouver’s Brian Burke was pretty furious.

 

[Ishdul]

They were absolutely the big pre-season favourites, and that was with the assumption that Aebischer was bad (he had a decent season). It was a top 2 lines of Tanguay/Forsberg/Hejduk and Kariya/Sakic/Selanne, and this was right after the big Forsberg/Hejduk season. Pretty good defense corps as well.

For Detroit keep in mind that they lost Fedorov that offseason.

 

[K Fleur]

Didn’t Kariya promise Ducks fans that he was coming back and they were going back to the finals? Then weeks later he tries to form a super team.

Important to note that Kariya and Selanne had the same agent as Forsberg and Sakic: Don Baizley. Baizley insisted that it was just a coincidence that they landed in the same place, but Vancouver’s Brian Burke was pretty furious.

When is he not?

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

Important to note that Kariya and Selanne had the same agent as Forsberg and Sakic: Don Baizley. Baizley insisted that it was just a coincidence that they landed in the same place, but Vancouver’s Brian Burke was pretty furious.

Haha well which centre would they have gotten to play with in Vancouver? Morrison was already with the WCE, you can't break up the Sedins, so that leaves you with... Artem Chubarov?

 

[Ishdul]

Didn’t Kariya promise Ducks fans that he was coming back and they were going back to the finals? Then weeks later he tries to form a super team.

He was on a team option for $10 million which the Ducks declined. It's part of why he was a UFA at such a young age at the time.

 

[Brodeur]

They wanted to win the Cup?

Sounds fair. Until you remember that Patrick Roy retired on May 28 of that year (i.e. way before the FA Market opened).

From that moment on, the Avalanche was stuck with David Aebischer as their #1 goaltender. Sure, he had a pretty good regular season afterwards, but it was basically a crapshoot at this point as far as his reliability as a #1 was concerned at this time, having never played more than 26 games in a year.

In his later Habs-days, he was one of the worst goalies I'd seen with the team. It was almost comical.

The Red Wings sounded like a more logical choice at the time.. They had Joseph + Hasek (though I don't remember if he announed his comeback before or after the pair signed) and had just added D. Hatcher to their d-corps.

Aebischer did have a couple decent seasons backing up Roy to that point. His totals the previous two seasons: 25-13-3, .923 sv%, 2.16 GAA. The thought was that Aebischer could provide Osgood-level goaltending that could be enough with a stacked team up front.

Not exactly sure how the Red Wings deployed their lines for 2003-04, but it seemed like a crowded/aging top 6 which was probably losing Fedorov. It's easier in hindsight knowing how Datsyuk/Zetterberg would develop, but nobody knew that in July 2003. Kariya-Selanne could join Colorado and presumably have Sakic or Forsberg as their center.

Didn’t Kariya promise Ducks fans that he was coming back and they were going back to the finals? Then weeks later he tries to form a super team.

I think it's a bit of a urban legend that Kariya made any assurances. Bryan Murray fully realized the implications of not giving Kariya the 10 million dollar qualifying offer.

Here's a 2010 blip from an Anaheim beat writer on the subject:

As for your assertion that Murray had a “handshake agreement” that Kariya would take less money, that’s not entirely accurate.

I went back and checked the transcripts of my interviews with Murray and Kariya from the summer of 2003, and Murray told Kariya before the June entry draft that he wasn’t going to qualify him but that he hoped to use the savings to bring in Selanne.

There was no verbal agreement, but Murray did say Kariya acknowledged understanding his strategy and told Murray that “money was not an issue.”

But Murray also conceded that Kariya’s agent, Don Baizley, warned the GM his client would at least explore his options if Kariya was not qualified. A few days later on June 29, Kariya called Murray at a hotel in Canada and informed him, “Bryan, if you don’t qualify me, I think I should look around.”

When Kariya and Selanne signed with Colorado on July 3, Murray was upset that he didn’t get a chance to make a counter-offer, as Baizley had promised he would.

I think there was just some bitterness from Anaheim fans that Kariya/Selanne could have done the same arrangement with them and that Kariya had orchestrated his exit on purpose.

Perhaps the ironic thing was that Anaheim ended up paying something like 16 million to Fedorov/Prospal for the 2003-04 season.

 

[Terry Yake]

kariya did make a "promise" at a ducks fan fest celebrating the 2003 season that they would return to the cup finals the next season. "same time, same place, different result next year" is what he said

everyone pretty much knows the story. the ducks didn't qualify him and he took the biggest paycut in NHL history to sign with the avs (close to 9 mil) and most ducks fans took it as "he bailed." but there were a bunch of other factors in the ducks not qualifying him

1. his injury history
2. he hadn't been the same player his last few seasons in anaheim. he was just over a PPG in 01, had a disappointing 57 pts in 82 games in 02, and was just under a PPG in 03. certainly not worth the 10 mil he was being paid
3. his terrible playoff performance in 03
4. giguere's RFA status at the time and need of a new contract after carrying the ducks to the SCF


just to name a few. also, kariya and the ducks hadn't really enjoyed a great relationsip. he held out for 30+ games in 97 and when it came time for his next contract in the 02 offseason the negotiations didn't go very smoothly either before he settled on a 1 year deal

i remember there were talks about selanne possibly coming back to anaheim that same offseason before he signed in colorado but at the end of the day, the two of them simply took paycuts to play on a stacked avs team. if the ducks did qualify kariya in 03, its pretty doubtful they win the cup in 07


also, here's the ESPN documentary one of the posters was talking about. pretty great pre-30 for 30 ESPN documentary

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

the way i remember it, aebischer was the 2nd or 3rd best player on the avs that year, after sakic and possibly tanguay.

 

[Merya]

Kariya took some silly small contract while Teemu got 7 mill. But Teemu paid part of his contract to Paul. It was a very weird thing, prolly decided on some drunken summer party by the two friends.

 

[Brodeur]

Kariya took a cheap contract on purpose to ensure he'd be a UFA in the summer of 2004. The CBA didn't expire until September 2004 and Group III free agency was for players over 31 years old by July 1st. Kariya would be 29 on July 1, 2004. But the previous CBA had a provision for Group V free agency. If you were a 10 year pro and made less than the league average (off the top of my head, I think that was about 1.8 mil that year), you could become a UFA. Kariya took the one year paycut, but also wanted to keep his options open after that season.

As it turned out, most teams didn't hand out big contracts in the summer of 2004 since nobody knew if there was going to be a salary cap or luxury tax system introduced.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

In theory this would have worked out fantastically if Aebischer played average, and Kariya and Selanne were both healthy but they were't healthy. The chemistry also just wasn't there that season. Maybe it was because of Selanne's knees, Karyia's past concussion issues, the fact they didn't have a Steve Rucchin like centre to do things like "forecheck and backcheck" for them so they could be the creative future HHOF players they were. The timing just wasn't right.

It's a bit unfortunate Kariya didn't sign a one year deal with Anaheim the season he retired. It would be nice if they could find that chemistry they had in the 1990's again, plus it would have healed Kariya's relationship with Ducks fans a lot quicker.

 

[Hennessy]

I try not to think of that season, but one thing I'll never forget is the Avs' 1st PP of the year - they came out with Selanne, Kariya, Sakic, Forsberg, and Blake. I had to change my pants.

 

[DDRhockey]

Injuries spoiled colorados season

 

[GuineaPig]

In theory this would have worked out fantastically if Aebischer played average, and Kariya and Selanne were both healthy but they were't healthy. The chemistry also just wasn't there that season. Maybe it was because of Selanne's knees, Karyia's past concussion issues, the fact they didn't have a Steve Rucchin like centre to do things like "forecheck and backcheck" for them so they could be the creative future HHOF players they were. The timing just wasn't right.

Aebischer played well above average. This is some Cechmanek-level scapegoating

 

[Merya]

It was also the worst coached team ever, by the worst coach ever.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ that's true. giving granato that team was like handing a lamborghini to your 16 year old with a learner's permit. if roy had still been there he might have gotten legit choked out in the dressing room.

i think there was some kind of granato v selanne blood feud? which if anyone has details i'm all ears. they had been teammates in sj, so maybe there was history?

 

[Epsilon]

Yeah my recollection of that season is that Granato was the big problem. He'd replaced Hartley the previous year after the Avs got off to a middling start, then rode Forsberg's MVP season and Hedjuk's career year to a great record to finish it out, before the Avs were summarily bounced in the first round of the playoffs. Next season he got a roster that was even more veteran-heavy with the additions of Selanne and Kariya, and did the classic young/rookie coach mistake of the time (also repeated by others such as Bill Cassidy in Washington) of insisting veteran star offensive players play like grinders in order to show what a tough disciplinarian he was. There was this idea that circulated around new coaches for a while that they needed to take this approach in order to show that they were the boss, as opposed to simply letting offensive stars play in their optimal manner and staying out of the way. Even though the team ended up with 100 points on the back of the talent on the roster and won a round in the playoffs (which is obviously nothing to crow about, but an improvement from the previous season), it was clear that Granato was in way over his head, could not properly coach veteran stars, and was gone by the next season (i.e. post-lockout).

 

[Zegras Zebra]

Aebischer played well above average. This is some Cechmanek-level scapegoating

I think you misunderstood what I meant. On paper if Aebisccher played average and the rest of the team played to their potential the 2003-04 Avalanche are definitely a Stanley Cup contender. Aebischer did play above average. No fan should complain about a 0.924 save percentage, a 2.09 GAA, and 32 wins. Its about the same level as Patrick Roy played at the season before. The problem was Selanne, Kariya and the rest of the Avs didn't play to their potential so they weren't nearly as good as expected before the season started.