Salary Cap: What to do with Matt Murray (poll)

[ChaosAgent]

Hey Khelandros, maybe Jarry will play really well tonight and then in two years, when he's going through a slump, you can pretend that you never thought he was good and that his stats for this game were actually terrible. And then you can ignore all the posts telling you that Jarry's numbers were actually good and just keep repeating the same lie over and over.

Maybe goaltender is a physically and mentally volatile position and thus nothing is forever? Thus making it dumb to commit big money and years to 95% of goaltenders and getting clingy AF to one (MAF, Murray, Jarry, whomever) isn't worth it?

 

[heysmilinstrange]

If he's going through a slump and there is a better goalie behind him, no issues trading him away. You don't get attached to players. If you do you end up like LA, Chicago and Detroit.

Maybe goaltender is a physically and mentally volatile position and thus nothing is forever? Thus making it dumb to commit big money and years to 95% of goaltenders and getting clingy AF to one (MAF, Murray, Jarry, whomever) isn't worth it?

You're both missing the point, Khelandros because he doesn't want to admit to misrepresenting Murray's past play and Doc Emrick because you don't know the context of this conversation.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You're both missing the point, Khelandros because he doesn't want to admit to misrepresenting Murray's past play and Doc Emrick because you don't know the context of this conversation.

Maybe I'll go back through the details of your back & forth.

All I'll say is this for now - there just aren't a lot of goalies that sustain greatness over a large stretch of time because of the mental volatility of the position. If you're going to shell out an 8/$60 or whatever...you better be sure you got one of the exceptions to the rule.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Maybe I'll go back through the details of your back & forth.

All I'll say is this for now - there just aren't a lot of goalies that sustain greatness over a large stretch of time because of the mental volatility of the position. If you're going to shell out an 8/$60 or whatever...you better be sure you got one of the exceptions to the rule.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Flying Dego]

Yes, I agree.

What is your take on Murray, where does he rank for you in terms of NHL goalies? Not attacking you moreso curious of your outlook on the team and him.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

What is your take on Murray, where does he rank for you in terms of NHL goalies? Not attacking you moreso curious of your outlook on how the team and him.

I think it's tough to rank his performance this season because he had a great October and a bad November. In general, I think he's moving past his injury issues, as he's added mass since he came into the league and has gone almost a full calendar year without an injury. He's made efforts to improve his glove hand, which some have called a weakness. His mental game seems weaker than it was when he entered the league, but it's still pretty strong considering he gets almost no fan support and is constantly made aware of the fact that he replaced a more popular goaltender.

At this point, I'd consider him an average goaltender.

We should move on from him if he wants too much money this summer or insists on being the guy even if Jarry outplays him the entire year, but people are too hastily pushing him to the side, in my opinion.

 

[Flying Dego]

I think it's tough to rank his performance this season because he had a great October and a bad November. In general, I think he's moving past his injury issues, as he's added mass since he came into the league and has gone almost a full calendar year without an injury. He's made efforts to improve his glove hand, which some have called a weakness. His mental game seems weaker than it was when he entered the league, but it's still pretty strong considering he gets almost no fan support and is constantly made aware of the fact that he replaced a more popular goaltender.

At this point, I'd consider him an average goaltender.

We should move on from him if he wants too much money this summer or insists on being the guy even if Jarry outplays him the entire year, but people are too hastily pushing him to the side, in my opinion.

See I agree with about all you said. I probably come across harsh as I have no allegiance to specific players expect Sid/Geno. I don't care about who it is as long as they give us the best chance to win. Murray is not a core piece and should not be viewed as such. To do so brings back Shero country club memories. I'm looking at our next few years as it. If we can maximize our chances at 1 more cup I do everything I can to get it.

Watching both goalies I see a lot of attributes in Jarry's game that I prefer and think is better for the team. I also don't view his sample size as questionable as others which is where most of us deviate in opinion.

I hope you heal soon Mr. Hornqvist the team misses your spunk.

 

[Khelandros]

I think it's tough to rank his performance this season because he had a great October and a bad November. In general, I think he's moving past his injury issues, as he's added mass since he came into the league and has gone almost a full calendar year without an injury. He's made efforts to improve his glove hand, which some have called a weakness. His mental game seems weaker than it was when he entered the league, but it's still pretty strong considering he gets almost no fan support and is constantly made aware of the fact that he replaced a more popular goaltender.

At this point, I'd consider him an average goaltender.

We should move on from him if he wants too much money this summer or insists on being the guy even if Jarry outplays him the entire year, but people are too hastily pushing him to the side, in my opinion.

So when I say this and back it up with stats, I'm misrepresenting Murray. But when you say it based on your opinion it's true?

 

[heysmilinstrange]

So when I say this and back it up with stats, I'm misrepresenting Murray. But when you say it based on your opinion it's true?

Like I've said, you misrepresent his stats. For example, you claimed that Murray was horrible last season, when he had a .919. You said that he was average during his four-month "hot period" (to use your term), when he had a had a .920+ save percentage and was one of the very best goalies in the league during that time. Should I go on?

 

[vikingGoalie]

Yep, no agenda here.

only agenda I have is for the logo on the front, whichever goalie gives us the best chance to get a W is the one I want in net.
Murray looks broken in net right now.
I feel bad for him, the team did not put in a great effort in front of him last game and you just can tell his confidence is close to zero right now. Seems to me like people who wont' objectively look at the level of play being put out in the here and now and want to focus on two cups 3 playoff runs ago have an agenda. Murray's #1 attribute when he was on top of his game was how quickly he processed the game and got himself in the right place and was big in net. He also calmed the game down and controlled rebounds. Right now his game is missing all of that, most of it is his confidence (i think who can really know?) but he is not processing the game quickly and he is not athletic enough to compensate for that.

Commenting that DeSmith could very well be playing better then him right now *IS* conjecture from the stand point that DeSmith hasn't played in the NHL this season. But it's not ridiculous to speculate that level of play wise over the last month or so that Murray is slipping down and down the depth chart.

As pointed out in previous posts of mine, this could very well change. It's why you wait until the summer to do anything. If murray finds his confidence and his game it's only good for us. For the life of me I don't get some here where you comment that a player is playing poorly and you must have an agenda. I've also commented (apparently wrongly) in the past that Murray could contend for Vezina some day, that was back when he was lights out. For me as a long time goalie, a goalie coach and generally been studying and playing the position for a lot longer then I care to admit I watch Jarry's game and while he will fall to earth some at some point, his style is pretty sustainable. Jarry has blossomed into a legit starting NHL goalie this year. Murray on the other hand never had the athletic gifts that Jarry has or played the puck particularly well, but like I said earlier he was able to process the game faster then everyone else. He has to get that back or he's done like dinner. Can he? Sure. Will he? I have no idea, but I still stand by my comment that Murray could very well be surpassed by DeSmith right now in level of play but we will never know unless CDC see's an NHL net.

 

[EightyOne]

Just after the third goal, the pens tv feed focused in on Guentzel on the bench.

He looked 1000% resigned to the loss.

This is more on who was in net than on Jake.

This is the bad that creeps in when the skaters can't rely on their backstop. The deflating march toward inevitable failure.

There's some serious trust issues now because of goaltending. It'll be hard to fix THAT.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Just after the third goal, the pens tv feed focused in on Guentzel on the bench.

He looked 1000% resigned to the loss.

This is more on who was in net than on Jake.

This is the bad that creeps in when the skaters can't rely on their backstop. The deflating march toward inevitable failure.

There's some serious trust issues now because of goaltending. It'll be hard to fix THAT.

The only people who are still defending Murray are those who trashed MAF for years and are having a hard time accepting the fact we kept the wrong goalie 2 years ago. It's beyond comical to see those blowhards either remain silent or try to spin the factual factoid that is Matt Murray largely becoming the the worst goalie in the entire league. There is no defending him. "Lesser goalies" have looked much, much better than him the past 2 years, playing behind the same damn team Murray is.

His lack of any athleticism has been exposed. His glove hand is putrid. You can't have those 2 negative traits and be successful. Not to mention he looks completely lost trying to play the puck. It's cringe worthy.

Murray caught lightning in a bottle for 2 small sample sized periods (2016 and 17 playoffs) and the league figured him out.

Jarry has enough NHL tape to make a few conclusions. He's more athletic than Murray and he plays the puck 10x better. And to this point his glove hand hasn't been anything but solid.

The only question remaining is can Jarry carry the emergence over to hockey in April, May and June.

If he can, Murray can simply be:

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The only people who are still defending Murray are those who trashed MAF for years and are having a hard time accepting the fact we kept the wrong goalie 2 years ago. It's beyond comical to see those blowhards either remain silent or try to spin the factual factoid that is Matt Murray largely becoming the the worst goalie in the entire league. There is no defending him. "Lesser goalies" have looked much, much better than him the past 2 years, playing behind the same damn team Murray is.

His lack of any athleticism has been exposed. His glove hand is putrid. You can't have those 2 negative traits and be successful. Not to mention he looks completely lost trying to play the puck. It's cringe worthy.

Murray caught lightning in a bottle for 2 small sample sized periods (2016 and 17 playoffs) and the league figured him out.

Jarry has enough NHL tape to make a few conclusions. He's more athletic than Murray and he plays the puck 10x better. And to this point his glove hand hasn't been anything but solid.

The only question remaining is can Jarry carry the emergence over to hockey in April, May and June.

If he can, Murray can simply be:

Of all goalies who played 50 games last year, Murray was 3rd in SV% and 8th in GAA.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Of all goalies who played 50 games last year, Murray was 3rd in SV% and 8th in GAA.

For half the season. Then he was again shit in the postseason.

The dude is crippling this roster. The skaters simply have zero faith in him and that is alarming. The play of the skaters is night and day different when Jarry is in net.

You can't quantify that. Just watch the damn games.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

For half the season. Then he was again **** in the postseason.

The dude is crippling this roster. The skaters simply have zero faith in him and that is alarming. The play of the skaters is night and day different when Jarry is in net.

You can't quantify that. Just watch the damn games.

For the whole regular season. Which contradicts the idea that Murray has only been good for "2 small sample sizes" totaling 32 playoff games before the league figured him out.

The kicker is that you then go on to rake him over the coals for a (large?) 4 playoff game sample size last season, when almost everyone struggled mightily including Crosby and Guentzel.

Murray isn't crippling anything right now. He's in a funk while our other young goalie is playing extremely well. The prudent thing to do is wait and see if he can regain the form he showed as recently as last year. Jarry's success gives us that luxury.

 

[LOGiK]

Just after the third goal, the pens tv feed focused in on Guentzel on the bench.

He looked 1000% resigned to the loss.

This is more on who was in net than on Jake.

This is the bad that creeps in when the skaters can't rely on their backstop. The deflating march toward inevitable failure.

There's some serious trust issues now because of goaltending. It'll be hard to fix THAT.

That was weird when the focused on Jake I thought.
Also like people said here before - the team plays a different game with MM. From coming back deep to get the puck with MM in net to Jarry playing the puck out is one simple but major change that everyone can notice.

 

[LOGiK]

His glove hand is putrid.

Ya think someone would have bought him a mitt and played some catch with him on his off days / off season.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I really think a conditioning assignment to wbs wouldn't be a bad thing. Pens have done it with Fleury in the past. Many teams have done it since.

They can use CDS as an emergency call up and send Murray down for a conditioning assignment, if he gains some confidence there then great. If he doesn't then...yeah.

 

[Jacob]

Players have to agree to a conditioning assignment, and they still count against the NHL roster and cap during the stint, and I think it has to be approved by the NHL in some capacity as well.

Just ride the hot goalie who is Jarry right now, between back-to-backs and practice Murray shouldn’t get rusty.

Maybe next time give Murray the first half of the B2B so he’s in a better position to succeed rather than zero shots for and killing 4 minutes of 5-on-3 in the 1st.

 

[Will Hunting]

Just ride the BETTER goalie who is Jarry right now.....

corrected.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hypothetical; Murray and Jarry continue their play throughout the rest of this season. At what point do you say "Maybe Murray just isn't very good, or at least isn't consistent enough to warrant a new contract. Let's try to trade him."?

Do you give him a one year, prove it type of deal and risk the guy tanking his value with another inconsistent and/or injury plagued season?

For the record, I don't think Murray's as bad as he's looked this season. But I'm also warming up to the idea that he's nowhere near as good/consistent a goalie as the dude who caught lightning in a bottle during those two back to back Cups.

 

[Khelandros]

Players have to agree to a conditioning assignment, and they still count against the NHL roster and cap during the stint, and I think it has to be approved by the NHL in some capacity as well.

Just ride the hot goalie who is Jarry right now, between back-to-backs and practice Murray shouldn’t get rusty.

Maybe next time give Murray the first half of the B2B so he’s in a better position to succeed rather than zero shots for and killing 4 minutes of 5-on-3 in the 1st.

Vancouver did only have 5 shots in the first, during all that 5-3 time. Including the offside goal, that's 3 goals on 6 shots.

 

[Jacob]

Vancouver did only have 5 shots in the first, during all that 5-3 time. Including the offside goal, that's 3 goals on 6 shots.

Well he made a few saves before the disallowed goal that were also negated. But if Vancouver sent 10 wristers in from outside the blue line, would he have somehow had a better game in your eyes? Don’t see how goals-to-shots ratio matters in a single game sample size.

I guess I’d have liked to see him stop the Pettersson goal but that’s mostly on (our) Pettersson for not tying up his man better and only slightly on Murray for not getting out more. You need your starter to make a big save and he didn’t, and hasn’t been, and obviously Jarry has been.

But that the goals/shots thing keeps getting brought up tells me people either didn’t watch the game or they have an agenda to push because none of the goals were soft and the team didn’t play well regardless of the shot ratio.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hypothetical; Murray and Jarry continue their play throughout the rest of this season. At what point do you say "Maybe Murray just isn't very good, or at least isn't consistent enough to warrant a new contract. Let's try to trade him."?

Do you give him a one year, prove it type of deal and risk the guy tanking his value with another inconsistent and/or injury plagued season?

For the record, I don't think Murray's as bad as he's looked this season. But I'm also warming up to the idea that he's nowhere near as good/consistent a goalie as the dude who caught lightning in a bottle during those two back to back Cups.

Considering he is an RFA. Yes. We can force him into arbitration and try to pump his value. Also, Jarry has in reality proved nothing despite being great for us this year. See Steve Mason, Hammond, Darling, etc. I mean you can even apply this to Conklin and Johnson with our squad.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I’d try and bridge him. Then I’d sign Jarry for the same term. Let them battle it out for number 1 spot over the next 2-3 years. If he isn’t willing to do that trade him, in the off season. Or another option would be take him to arbitration and make him try and play it out one more year to figure out his game. But I think a long term extension on him is the wrong move right now.