What playoff outcome for the Habs would be enough to make you happy?

[Kriss E]

It's based on a lot of things. In general I think environment plays a very big role in development and that's not just hockey but life in general. So right off the bat I would expect most guys to end up quite different if there were big changes in what actually happened such as who drafted them, who coached them, etc...

Well I agree with that, but I disagree that missing out on a ECF run as a rookie is going to limit your potential. The PO experience is good for handling the increased level of intensity and raising your game to a next level.

For PK in particular yes he always had that drive but it hasn't always been well directed. As an example of that there's always plenty of criticism around PK's summer workouts where he's working on the "wrong" things such as gaining upper body strength instead of working on speed, etc... So Drive and Passion are great but if not directed to the right things can be a problem.

I think those playoffs really helped Subban focus on the right things. If we didn't have that run I suspect Subban wouldn't have ended up as good defensively.

Yes but that's even going through 2010, so it didn't change much at all. PK is a big moment player, that's all there is to it. 2010 run or not, that wouldn't change, and his drive to be excellent was in him for a very long time.
PK had big leaps in his development, there's really no reason at all to believe he wouldn't have reached Norris level with/without 2010.

The confidence boost of going up against the best in the world and coming out on top also shouldn't be understated. When in the early years the coach benches/scratches you without that experience of having success against the best it increases the chances that mentally you go into a tail spin. Granted this was always going to be less of a problem for Subban then other players but I think an overlooked aspect is how much Therrien tried to change the player Subban was/is, and I suspect Subban would have been more receptive to the frankly bad advice Therrien and company were giving him. So that experience truly made him a believer in playing his game his way which is a big part of why he became as successful as he did.

Honestly, it feels like you're looking for a reason to say it helped PK more than anything.
Subban was oozing with confidence before even playing a game here. The idea that he, of all people, needed a confidence boost to reach a higher status sounds a little silly to me.
Not to mention, he won the Norris after his sophomore year where he had a bit more issues than in his rookie year, where we'd see him get scolded a few times by Cunneyworth/Ladouceur and he even was a healthy scratch.
He got into a contract dispute, missed camp, came in and won the Norris. I don't see how you can attribute that road to success to a 14 game stretch back in 2010.

 

[Sorinth]

Well I agree with that, but I disagree that missing out on a ECF run as a rookie is going to limit your potential. The PO experience is good for handling the increased level of intensity and raising your game to a next level.

Yes but that's even going through 2010, so it didn't change much at all. PK is a big moment player, that's all there is to it. 2010 run or not, that wouldn't change, and his drive to be excellent was in him for a very long time.
PK had big leaps in his development, there's really no reason at all to believe he wouldn't have reached Norris level with/without 2010.

Honestly, it feels like you're looking for a reason to say it helped PK more than anything.
Subban was oozing with confidence before even playing a game here. The idea that he, of all people, needed a confidence boost to reach a higher status sounds a little silly to me.
Not to mention, he won the Norris after his sophomore year where he had a bit more issues than in his rookie year, where we'd see him get scolded a few times by Cunneyworth/Ladouceur and he even was a healthy scratch.
He got into a contract dispute, missed camp, came in and won the Norris. I don't see how you can attribute that road to success to a 14 game stretch back in 2010.

I guess this doesn't matter anymore but anyways, "limit" is perhaps the wrong word to use but I don't think there is a hard limit on potential, it's not really a case of reaching it or not, you can always be better. The offseason workout is an example of that, Subban could have been even better then he was, and if he could've been better is it so hard to think he could've been worse?

Simplistically,
A good long playoff run is good environment for development
A good environment for development helps make a player better

So logically without that good development the player wouldn't have become as good. That doesn't mean players can't still become amazing, but they are likely to not be as good compared to an alternate reality where they did have a good development environment. How much better is impossible to say, we can only guess but I'm a firm believer that development environment is a major factor (And yes I'm well aware that there is a whole lot more to development environment then one playoff run).


My stance is simply the development of Suzuki/Kotkaniemi is/was more important then getting the 9th overall. Out of curiosity now that we are looking at the 15th overall pick, do think it's better for us to lose in the 1st round vs advancing to say the ECF because if we advance we get a worse pick?

 

[Kriss E]

I guess this doesn't matter anymore but anyways, "limit" is perhaps the wrong word to use but I don't think there is a hard limit on potential, it's not really a case of reaching it or not, you can always be better. The offseason workout is an example of that, Subban could have been even better then he was, and if he could've been better is it so hard to think he could've been worse?

Simplistically,
A good long playoff run is good environment for development
A good environment for development helps make a player better

So logically without that good development the player wouldn't have become as good. That doesn't mean players can't still become amazing, but they are likely to not be as good compared to an alternate reality where they did have a good development environment. How much better is impossible to say, we can only guess but I'm a firm believer that development environment is a major factor (And yes I'm well aware that there is a whole lot more to development environment then one playoff run).

Yes except development isn't as black and white as you make it sound. Otherwise, every single prospect who doesn't go through an ECF run will miss out on an important developmental aspect and therefore not reach its full potential, which is a silly thought.
A long PO run gives you the experience of PO intensity at the highest level. Makes you cope with grueling scheduling, the head-to-head battles, the importance of following a game plan and putting the team first. It isn't going to make you better at reading the plays, passing the puck, positioning yourself, off-season training, etc, anymore than if you get your experience from the regular season.
You can play hypotheticals all day long and go into multiple suppositions but you have no actual concrete evidence to suggest PK would have never reached his Norris level without going through 2010. You just don't.

My stance is simply the development of Suzuki/Kotkaniemi is/was more important then getting the 9th overall. Out of curiosity now that we are looking at the 15th overall pick, do think it's better for us to lose in the 1st round vs advancing to say the ECF because if we advance we get a worse pick?

I don't think it was because their development probably wouldn't change much.

Moving forward, it wasn't just the 9th, the possibility of landing the 1st overall at 12.5% was a massive part of why I rathered we lose. Now that it's gone, well I rather we go as far as possible.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Voted winning the Cup. That last option is a disgrace - are you people serious? Why do you even watch? May as well go and be an Oilers or Leafs fan.

 

[HOPE]

Voted winning the Cup. That last option is a disgrace - are you people serious? Why do you even watch? May as well go and be an Oilers or Leafs fan.

At least they are watching entertaining hockey for 82 matches.

 

[Garbageyuk]

At least they are watching entertaining hockey for 82 matches.

If you are older, I can kind of understand where you're coming from, meaning you've seen this team win Cups. I never have, and I'd like to see it before I'm f***ing 50 or something. To me the Cup is always what I look forward to as a fan, and is why I want the Habs to finally get a top draft pick/elite talent. If they won this year though, f*** the picks, I'd be happy for a while.

 

[Paddyjack]

Voted winning the Cup. That last option is a disgrace - are you people serious? Why do you even watch? May as well go and be an Oilers or Leafs fan.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that it was this team that was actually a disgrace this year, on many nights, and not the fans who are enduring the awful state of this team for many years. So when this poll was set, a lot of us would rather have a chance at a #1 draft pick, french canadian to boot and a possible future rather than a #16 pick by winning a qualification round with rusty teams and then lose in the first round. Not to mention that any hint of success would make MB looks good despite an horrible team last season.

So if you want to insult us fans for that way of thinking, do so, I really can't care less. I know what I saw last season and it was bad. And I don't see any reason to believe MB is the man to bring the nice prospects we have into a contending team.

Having said that, I will watch the playoffs with more interest now, but a loss in this round will be very bitter for me.

 

[Garbageyuk]

I think a lot of people are forgetting that it was this team that was actually a disgrace this year, on many nights, and not the fans who are enduring the awful state of this team for many years. So when this poll was set, a lot of us would rather have a chance at a #1 draft pick, french canadian to boot and a possible future rather than a #16 pick by winning a qualification round with rusty teams and then lose in the first round. Not to mention that any hint of success would make MB looks good despite an horrible team last season.

So if you want to insult us fans for that way of thinking, do so, I really can't care less. I know what I saw last season and it was bad. And I don't see any reason to believe MB is the man to bring the nice prospects we have into a contending team.

Having said that, I will watch the playoffs with more interest now, but a loss in this round will be very bitter for me.

I know this team isn't winning the Cup, and the ownership/management are a bunch of clowns that have made a joke of this once great franchise. But the poll is essentially giving a choice between winning a Cup and a draft pick. To me, if you could choose between the two, it's a no brainer. Hypothetically, if this team did somehow win the Cup this year, it would have to be on the back of Carey Price, and there would have to be a tremendous amount of luck involved as well. And Bergevin would still be a buffoon. As for your last point, unfortunately, you and I both know that is probably the most likely scenario. Such is life as a Habs fan.

 

[Guess]

Would be happy to get at least round 2, if we lose there we still keep a 16th OA pick

 

[HallOfGreatness4]

I mean, I feel like common sense we are going down here. Best we can hope for is to take 2 or 3 and force an exciting game 7 that truly teaches these guys they can hang with the big boys.

within that, getting continued development from KK and the young core that with the right additions makes us a force next year. The coaching staff & front office need to gain confidence in the young core and see this is the group to build around. A long series against Philly will do that!

 

[Doc McKenna]

I think a lot of people are forgetting that it was this team that was actually a disgrace this year, on many nights, and not the fans who are enduring the awful state of this team for many years. So when this poll was set, a lot of us would rather have a chance at a #1 draft pick, french canadian to boot and a possible future rather than a #16 pick by winning a qualification round with rusty teams and then lose in the first round. Not to mention that any hint of success would make MB looks good despite an horrible team last season.

So if you want to insult us fans for that way of thinking, do so, I really can't care less. I know what I saw last season and it was bad. And I don't see any reason to believe MB is the man to bring the nice prospects we have into a contending team.

Having said that, I will watch the playoffs with more interest now, but a loss in this round will be very bitter for me.

We barely won game 1 against a disinterested Pens team. If we don't win I think we would have lost the series. This team is not made for the playoffs. Even if we won the cup. I would put a MASSIVE astrix next to our teams name. For CHI we know they sucked this year, but they have guys that have been there and are known to be talented.

This still feels like pond hockey and the results show as much.

 

[SergeConstantin74]

 

[bobholly39]

Voted winning the Cup. That last option is a disgrace - are you people serious? Why do you even watch? May as well go and be an Oilers or Leafs fan.

So just to clarify - if you vote winning the cup it means anything less and you won't be happy. So if we make the finals and lose in a valiant effort - you still won't be happy with that run? That's a really high bar...

I agree with you on the last option, disgrace to see so many votes. I do think a lot of people misunderstood the poll, and took it to mean vote here if you want to be in the running for Laf. While this isn't the case - the premise of the thread was always what would make you happy if we beat Pittsburgh - so losing to them wasn't an option.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that it was this team that was actually a disgrace this year, on many nights, and not the fans who are enduring the awful state of this team for many years. So when this poll was set, a lot of us would rather have a chance at a #1 draft pick, french canadian to boot and a possible future rather than a #16 pick by winning a qualification round with rusty teams and then lose in the first round. Not to mention that any hint of success would make MB looks good despite an horrible team last season.

So if you want to insult us fans for that way of thinking, do so, I really can't care less. I know what I saw last season and it was bad. And I don't see any reason to believe MB is the man to bring the nice prospects we have into a contending team.

Having said that, I will watch the playoffs with more interest now, but a loss in this round will be very bitter for me.

There seem to have been a lot of confusion with understanding of the poll an OP. The premise was always "if we beat Pittsburgh....". So losing to Pittsburgh for a shot at the #1 pick isn't the last poll option, if that's how you voted.

Basically - think of it today, since we really did beat Pittsburgh. What would make you happy about this year's run? Only vote last option if even the cup doesn't make you happy. The #1 pick isn't a consideration here.

 

[bobholly39]

We barely won game 1 against a disinterested Pens team. If we don't win I think we would have lost the series. This team is not made for the playoffs. Even if we won the cup. I would put a MASSIVE astrix next to our teams name. For CHI we know they sucked this year, but they have guys that have been there and are known to be talented.

This still feels like pond hockey and the results show as much.

"If.....". You can go a lot of places with that word. Pitt actually played really well in game 1, i wouldn't say they were disinterested. I watched every game - and I feel as though outside of Price and a few flashes, we didn't play particularly well. We finally had a really good period in the 3rd of game 4 - it's the first time I saw us come together.

Two ways of looking at it. But one optimistic way is to say - we can actually do a lot better than what we did vs Pittsburgh (outside of Price). I expect we'll play harder vs Philly, now that the rust is off. We'll see.

Also - you really need to quit with the whole asterisk talk. NHL came up with a fair system given unique circumstances, and they expanded the playoffs. Deal with it. If we win, or if Chicago wins, or if Arizona wins - it's a full merit no asterisk win. And too bad for all of the better teams for losing to such 'weaker' teams. Having to go through 5 rounds - all against much tougher opponents - is more than enough to eliminate any 'asterisk' talk.

 

[Doc McKenna]

"If.....". You can go a lot of places with that word. Pitt actually played really well in game 1, i wouldn't say they were disinterested. I watched every game - and I feel as though outside of Price and a few flashes, we didn't play particularly well. We finally had a really good period in the 3rd of game 4 - it's the first time I saw us come together.

Two ways of looking at it. But one optimistic way is to say - we can actually do a lot better than what we did vs Pittsburgh (outside of Price). I expect we'll play harder vs Philly, now that the rust is off. We'll see.

Also - you really need to quit with the whole asterisk talk. NHL came up with a fair system given unique circumstances, and they expanded the playoffs. Deal with it. If we win, or if Chicago wins, or if Arizona wins - it's a full merit no asterisk win. And too bad for all of the better teams for losing to such 'weaker' teams. Having to go through 5 rounds - all against much tougher opponents - is more than enough to eliminate any 'asterisk' talk.

Unique? we were 11 games from the end of the season. We played 48 and had a playoff in 2013. What was the point of allowing in the bottom 8 teams. No reason. Which is why it makes no sense. It will always have an **ASTERISK** Just like during the spanish flu. Go ahead an look. They always mention it wasn't a regular season. DEAL WITH IT. If anything there was trades made that wouldn't have been if teams thought the standing wouldn't matter 3 weeks later. Kinda effects the outcomes.

Sorry but some of us don't play the no true scotsman fallacy like you do.

 

[Sorinth]

Yes except development isn't as black and white as you make it sound. Otherwise, every single prospect who doesn't go through an ECF run will miss out on an important developmental aspect and therefore not reach its full potential, which is a silly thought.
A long PO run gives you the experience of PO intensity at the highest level. Makes you cope with grueling scheduling, the head-to-head battles, the importance of following a game plan and putting the team first. It isn't going to make you better at reading the plays, passing the puck, positioning yourself, off-season training, etc, anymore than if you get your experience from the regular season.
You can play hypotheticals all day long and go into multiple suppositions but you have no actual concrete evidence to suggest PK would have never reached his Norris level without going through 2010. You just don't.


I don't think it was because their development probably wouldn't change much.

Moving forward, it wasn't just the 9th, the possibility of landing the 1st overall at 12.5% was a massive part of why I rathered we lose. Now that it's gone, well I rather we go as far as possible.

Well I had always said that getting 1st overall was a best outcome outside of winning the cup. Here's my OP
What playoff outcome for the Habs would be enough to make you happy?

The debate started out as the difference between a good playoff run with the young guys playing well vs knocked out 1st round but not winning the lottery that I thought the playoff run would be better. And I felt that way in large part because 9th overall just isn't that great of a pick it's not that much different then 15th. People overvalue that 9th overall pick because they associated top-10 with being really good in basically all parts of life.

You are right development isn't black and white and we can never no how things would have turned out if things were different. But the lack of evidence goes both ways, we have no evidence that Subban would have turned out the same either because it's impossible to have evidence so it's all based on circumstantial things. Much like there's no evidence that Lefebvre hurt the careers of our prospects while he was AHL coach, but it's certainly something I believe.

 

[bobholly39]

Unique? we were 11 games from the end of the season. We played 48 and had a playoff in 2013. What was the point of allowing in the bottom 8 teams. No reason. Which is why it makes no sense. It will always have an **ASTERISK** Just like during the spanish flu. Go ahead an look. They always mention it wasn't a regular season. DEAL WITH IT. If anything there was trades made that wouldn't have been if teams thought the standing wouldn't matter 3 weeks later. Kinda effects the outcomes.

Sorry but some of us don't play the no true scotsman fallacy like you do.

The point is that at least 5 teams had very reasonable and realistic chances to make the playoffs - less so with Arizona, Chicago and Montreal. But if you cut it at 16, you are being majorly unfair to at least 5 teams. If you could it at 20 - at least 1 team gets screwed.

I'm sure "putting on a grand show" was part of the reasoning for going to 24 teams vs 20 - and quite frankly i don't have a problem with it. None of the lower teams were given advantages - they have to play the highest seeds each round.

It will have no asterisk. The large majority of hockey fans agree with that. A very loud minority disagrees, that's all.

Also - I don't have to deal with anything. The team I root for is in the playoffs starting this week and i'm ecstatic about it. Looking forward to a fun run

 

[Paddyjack]

There seem to have been a lot of confusion with understanding of the poll an OP. The premise was always "if we beat Pittsburgh....". So losing to Pittsburgh for a shot at the #1 pick isn't the last poll option, if that's how you voted.

Basically - think of it today, since we really did beat Pittsburgh. What would make you happy about this year's run? Only vote last option if even the cup doesn't make you happy. The #1 pick isn't a consideration here.

You are correct, actually we did discuss that confusion before and yes, I did misunderstand. Yes, obviously I would be happy if they win the Cup, who wouldn't. That would be a fun run for sure. So that would be my revised option, "only the Cup". BUT I did not change my vote because it remains that I would not be fully satisfied with that Cup. I think in the end it would be a fake image distorted by a tournament full of rusty teams. And worse, MB would flex his biceps with I told you so and we would suck again for several seasons after.

 

[Kriss E]

Well I had always said that getting 1st overall was a best outcome outside of winning the cup. Here's my OP
What playoff outcome for the Habs would be enough to make you happy?

The debate started out as the difference between a good playoff run with the young guys playing well vs knocked out 1st round but not winning the lottery that I thought the playoff run would be better. And I felt that way in large part because 9th overall just isn't that great of a pick it's not that much different then 15th. People overvalue that 9th overall pick because they associated top-10 with being really good in basically all parts of life.

You are right development isn't black and white and we can never no how things would have turned out if things were different. But the lack of evidence goes both ways, we have no evidence that Subban would have turned out the same either because it's impossible to have evidence so it's all based on circumstantial things. Much like there's no evidence that Lefebvre hurt the careers of our prospects while he was AHL coach, but it's certainly something I believe.

I think given where the team is, yes, we'd be better off with the 9th. It's not because I think we're going to get a super talent at #9 due to the psychological conception of a top 10 pick.
Whether we even draft a player or not, the point is we get a valuable asset. That's something we could use to trade. Package the #9 pick with Byron and Poehling, I'm sure we could get a very good return.

And ya, experience, of any kind, is good and helps. That being said, it doesn't mean if you miss out on some you won't still flourish and again, I have no reason to believe PK wouldn't have. To me this guy was destined to blossom as much as any other guy who does it. His drive was undeniable.

But right now, I'm looking at our team. A PO run would be nice but no, I'd take the 9th pick as I feel it adds to our list of assets we could definitely use to improve significantly.

 

[cphabs]

As long as our younger players stay healthy? I’m ok

 

[ECWHSWI]

The point is that at least 5 teams had very reasonable and realistic chances to make the playoffs - less so with Arizona, Chicago and Montreal. But if you cut it at 16, you are being majorly unfair to at least 5 teams. If you could it at 20 - at least 1 team gets screwed.

I'm sure "putting on a grand show" was part of the reasoning for going to 24 teams vs 20 - and quite frankly i don't have a problem with it. None of the lower teams were given advantages - they have to play the highest seeds each round.

It will have no asterisk. The large majority of hockey fans agree with that. A very loud minority disagrees, that's all.

Also - I don't have to deal with anything. The team I root for is in the playoffs starting this week and i'm ecstatic about it. Looking forward to a fun run

they were actually, they were given a chance to take part in the PO...


remember last time a 22nd or 23th team won the cup ?

 

[Jee]

At this point, winning the Stanley Cup and being unbearable about it for the rest of my life would make me happy