What makes Yzerman rated so high

[Infinite Vision*]

You obviously didn't understand my post or the context it was in and in response to. You added in the "(to Yzerman)" to my post which was obviously not the intended meaning. If want to compare Selanne to someone then use Hull or Forsberg because SELANNE should not be mentioned in the "same breath" as YZERMAN or really even Jagr but he did play the same position as JAGR during the same era although he(JAGR) is obviously also way above Selanne.

None, including YZERMAN, were in the same class as the Big Four.

Next time, before you "lose your temper", read the whole post and the ones it is in response to and please do not put words in my mouth which were obviously not the intended meaning.

Funny stuff. That's exactly why he's so overrated.

 

[steveott]

What does adjusted goals have to do with anything? There is way more to a player than goals. Or points. Or any kind of statistical measure. Yzerman, Clarke, Trottier, Sakic were all FAR better than their stats. Their stats help explain their careers but they don't define them.

Just because Dino has more goals than Rocket does not make him the better goal scorer. Or the better player.

If adjusted stats dont mean anything there is no reason to talk about "eras".
You will be questioning EVERY comment that includes "dead puck era".
(thats helluva load of posts here)

THERE certainly is more to the players than points but if we forget all the statistics there is nothing much left to talk about anymore.

After that every opinion on anyone is just subjective speculation...

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Cook and Boucher were Howie Morenz's main contemporaries okay pal. If morenz gets ranked right next to hull and beliveau, i think its silly that cook and boucher are being ranked below someone like yzerman. Boucher is arguably the best playoff performer of his era and lead the playoffs in scoring twice.

I don't normally see Morenz ranked right next to Beliveau, he isn't really in my mind. But ranking players from that long ago seems all but impossible anyway, it usually appears to be more of a nod to the origins of the game that people/publications attempt to do so regardless. The rules were quite different, it was really a different game. Morenz probably is the household name from that era so it's not surprising he's ranked quite a bit higher than others from that time.

So you are saying defensemen like shore and clancy just stood around in thier own end, lol.

Well from the footage I've seen and the fact the NHL enacted a rule in the 30s that barred teams from having more than 2 skaters stand in their own zone, it appears that having the D-men stay back in their own zone was quite common then.

With regards to Apps, he doesn't usually get ranked very far away from Yzerman and one can probably make a case either way, though I honestly can't say I know a whole lot about Apps' defensive or leadership ability.

 

[Sens Rule]

If adjusted stats dont mean anything there is no reason to talk about "eras".
You will be questioning EVERY comment that includes "dead puck era".
(thats helluva load of posts here)

THERE certainly is more to the players than points but if we forget all the statistics there is nothing much left to talk about anymore.

After that every opinion on anyone is just subjective speculation...

I disagree. Like I said: Their stats help explain their careers but they don't define them.

Everything is subjective speculation. Duh!

 

[canucks4ever]

I don't normally see Morenz ranked right next to Beliveau, he isn't really in my mind. But ranking players from that long ago seems all but impossible anyway, it usually appears to be more of a nod to the origins of the game that people/publications attempt to do so regardless. The rules were quite different, it was really a different game. Morenz probably is the household name from that era so it's not surprising he's ranked quite a bit higher than others from that time.



Well from the footage I've seen and the fact the NHL enacted a rule in the 30s that barred teams from having more than 2 skaters stand in their own zone, it appears that having the D-men stay back in their own zone was quite common then.

With regards to Apps, he doesn't usually get ranked very far away from Yzerman and one can probably make a case either way, though I honestly can't say I know a whole lot about Apps' defensive or leadership ability.

The only players that are impossible to rank are the ones who had thier entire career before the 1926 consolidation. Why would it be impoosible to rank players like boucher, cook and apps when there are people alive who saw them play.

Yzerman simply doesn't have enough seasons as a top five scorer to be ranked the way he is. His legacy gets blown out of proportion. There are many players from the past and current players like ovy and crosby who were more dominant. When I read the book where hockey news ranked him 5th overall since expansion, i couldnt stop laughing. Great player, great leader, but not better than the guys i mentioned.

 

[BlueSinceBirth]

I think a few people need to stop looking at stats and find video of him. He gained more respect for me his last few years then when he was a high scoring offensive star. BTW I HATED the 90's Red Wings but that goal in '96 was a rocket and the right player scored it.

 

[jcbio11]

Because he gave up being a flashy high scoring star who never won anything to play a shutdown center on Detroit's SC winning teams.

Of course Detroit's organization deserves much praise for Yzerman's legacy, because not many other franchises could have paid superstar many for a guy playing shutdown role.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Pre lockout he did not carry his teams anywhere. You can complain all you want about how he had mediocre teams but Kariya gets penalized too for his lacklustre playoff resume. Those two still should have done more back then.

However Selanne did redeem himself post lockout, Kariya never will. But the playoff portfolio's of Selanne and Yzerman aren't even worth comparing to be honest.

What more could they do? They won the only series in which they had home ice, and both series losses were to the Detroit Red Wings who were on a 9 series winning streak. This wasn't the 1980s; they weren't getting let into the playoffs for being the fourth best team in a five team conference. They were a two player team with a decent goalie, a third-liner as their center, and a stellar lineup of Doug Houda, Brent Severyn, Ted Drury, Mike Leclerc, Pavel Trnka, Frank Banham, Mike Crowley, Drew Bannister, Jason Marshell... They weren't mediocre - the Phoenix Coyotes were mediocre - the Mighty Ducks were terrible for an NHL team. Tampa Bay had a stronger #3-18.

By the way, an injured Teemu Selanne kept THAT roster, minus Paul Kariya, in playoff contention in 1997-98 until Game 78. As soon as they were eliminated, he sat out the rest of the season and let everyone and their grandmother catch him in the scoring race, because he wasn't healthy enough to be playing in the first place. But hey, you never hear about that story of futile courage. Maybe if they played in the 1980s Norris Division, their .396 record would've went further than it did, and he could've developed a playoff resume in his prime about which he could brag...

He did the best he could with what he had. Calling him terrible because the Mighty Ducks couldn't beat the Red Wings and their "Hey, let's check those two guys" system is insulting. So, tell me, Big Phil, which of the 1997 and 1999 Detroit Red Wings should the respective Mighty Ducks of Anaheim have beaten?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think the supposed playoff failures of selanne are overblown too. But that doesn't mean we need to demean yzerman's playoff heroics just because selanne never got a shot. Yzerman got his shot - and he absolutely excelled to historical levels.

 

[jepjepjoo]

I think the supposed playoff failures of selanne are overblown too. But that doesn't mean we need to demean yzerman's playoff heroics just because selanne never got a shot. Yzerman got his shot - and he absolutely excelled to historical levels.

Selanne actually gets penalized for playing injured when other players get applauded for it.

example: Selanne playing with a broken wrist and a broken thumb for San Jose and only scoring 2 points = "Selanne is a choker!!!" when people should be saying "wow what a warrior".

Age 22-30 Selanne had 13 goals in 21 playoffs games only Lemieux(26 in 40gp) scored goals at a higher pace in the playoffs during that time period. Small sample size, but it doesn't scream "bad playoff player".

 

[Borlag]

The only players that are impossible to rank are the ones who had thier entire career before the 1926 consolidation. Why would it be impoosible to rank players like boucher, cook and apps when there are people alive who saw them play.

Because everyone who have seen them play, would be going by ancient memory rather than fresh memory.

Yzerman simply doesn't have enough seasons as a top five scorer to be ranked the way he is. His legacy gets blown out of proportion. There are many players from the past and current players like ovy and crosby who were more dominant. When I read the book where hockey news ranked him 5th overall since expansion, i couldnt stop laughing. Great player, great leader, but not better than the guys i mentioned.

Yzerman doesn't need them because he dominated where and when it matters. Ovechkin might get there eventually, right now he's almost out of the race entirely, Crosby's looking much better but still isn't there either.

At the same time, a modern day elite player who sacrifices offense for defense can be found on the very same team as Yzerman before; Datsyuk. A case could easily be made that he's at the very least on the same level as Crosby, and easily a notch above Ovechkin. Is that laughable as well, just because he's not winning Art Ross or Rocket Richard? He too likes to win where it matters.

You can't value players solely on their offensive skills, which seems to be all that you value them on.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Yzerman doesn't need them because he dominated where and when it matters. Ovechkin might get there eventually, right now he's almost out of the race entirely, Crosby's looking much better but still isn't there either.

At the same time, a modern day elite player who sacrifices offense for defense can be found on the very same team as Yzerman before; Datsyuk. A case could easily be made that he's at the very least on the same level as Crosby, and easily a notch above Ovechkin. Is that laughable as well, just because he's not winning Art Ross or Rocket Richard? He too likes to win where it matters.

You can't value players solely on their offensive skills, which seems to be all that you value them on.

Well the fact remains that Yzerman never managed to be an elite offensive player and an elite defensive player at the same time. He's like two players in one career and often gets called a player who dominated in both ends which isn't true. He did "dominate" in both ends of the ice, but at different times. Yzerman was no slouch offensively when he added a defensive side to his game, but he wasn't elite. I often hear "wow, how can a player score 150 points while being so good defensively".

 

[Derick*]

That's one problem with playoff PPG numbers. Players that played through injuries are punished.

Who cares if someone has better "per game" numbers when another player played twice as many games and if he hadn't played through an injury he'd still have more games and as high a PPG.

 

[Borlag]

Well the fact remains that Yzerman never managed to be an elite offensive player and an elite defensive player at the same time. He's like two players in one career and often gets called a player who dominated in both ends which isn't true. He did "dominate" in both ends of the ice, but at different times. Yzerman was no slouch offensively when he added a defensive side to his game, but he wasn't elite. I often hear "wow, how can a player score 150 points while being so good defensively".

Obviously he didn't get his selke while topping 150 points, but in his Selke year he was still top 10 in points, with PPG production.

 

[jepjepjoo]

Obviously he didn't get his selke while topping 150 points, but in his Selke year he was still top 10 in points, with PPG production.

That's the only season he was in the top10(he was 10th) after 92-93.

 

[God Bless Canada]

A big part of Yzerman's legacy is that he accomplished so much while spending his career with one team. There's been so much player movement in the last 25 to 30 years. We gripe about the lack of loyalty in the game, the lack of roster consistency. So when you see Yzerman spend more than two decades with a team, and set a record for most seasons as the captain of a team, it's a pretty big deal.

It helps that he was a class act. It helps that he was a great leader. But here's why he's rated so highly: he did all these incredible things, captained three Cup champions, put up great numbers, played at an incredibly high level for nearly 20 years - and did all that with the same organization.

It was once debated around here whether Yzerman is the second greatest Red Wing of all-time, behind Gordie Howe. I was among those who said no. But I've since changed my mind. He is the second greatest Red Wing ever. Not the second greatest player to play for the Wings. Not as great as Sawchuk or Lindsay. But when you look at what Yzerman did, and what he meant to that team, yeah, he's the second greatest Wing ever.

I watched Yzerman play. I watched Sakic play. I believe that Yzerman was the better hockey player. You could make a case for Sakic. I think the beauty of the comparison is there are so many striking similarities. Both entered the league as fairly one-dimensional players. Both were basically one-man shows in their first few seasons. (Yzerman's one-man show lasted a little longer). Both were dogged by trade rumours at one point (Sakic in around 1993 and 1994, Yzerman in 1994 and 1995), but went on to play their entire career with one team). Both played at an incredibly high level for so long. Both captained multiple Cup champs. Both became excellent two-way forwards. Both are universally beloved in the game.

Like I said before, I think Yzerman was a better hockey player, but I have no qualms with those who argue Sakic.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well the fact remains that Yzerman never managed to be an elite offensive player and an elite defensive player at the same time. He's like two players in one career and often gets called a player who dominated in both ends which isn't true. He did "dominate" in both ends of the ice, but at different times. Yzerman was no slouch offensively when he added a defensive side to his game, but he wasn't elite. I often hear "wow, how can a player score 150 points while being so good defensively".

Yzerman was pretty elite offensively in the playoffs, after he had become an elite defensively player, however. And that's what everyone remembers. (Agree that calling him good defensively when he was an elite regular season offensive player is silly).

 

[Borlag]

That's the only season he was in the top10(he was 10th) after 92-93.

Yet your claim was that he wasn't able to combine both elite offense and defense at the same time at all. I think it's fairly obvious that his Selke from that season proves that he had elite defensive qualities at the moment, while his position in the top 10 for points proves his elite status in the offense.

Fact is, he sacrificed personal stats for the benefit of the team. That simply can't be argued against. And while his offense dropped significantly because of it, his performance actually improved like has been said by others. One could also argue that once Detroit started building the team around him, Yzerman simply didn't have to produce that much anymore when it came to points. His peak wasn't just those early offensive years, his peak lasted for 15 years,

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

That's the only season he was in the top10(he was 10th) after 92-93.

Well, he was 7th in PPG in 93-94. But anyway, Yzerman's offensive numbers didn't just go down because he transformed his game, it was also the time league scoring dried up overall and he became a 30+ aged player. There probably were multiple things at work there.

 

[jepjepjoo]

A big part of Yzerman's legacy is that he accomplished so much while spending his career with one team. There's been so much player movement in the last 25 to 30 years. We gripe about the lack of loyalty in the game, the lack of roster consistency. So when you see Yzerman spend more than two decades with a team, and set a record for most seasons as the captain of a team, it's a pretty big deal.

It helps that he was a class act. It helps that he was a great leader. But here's why he's rated so highly: he did all these incredible things, captained three Cup champions, put up great numbers, played at an incredibly high level for nearly 20 years - and did all that with the same organization.

It was once debated around here whether Yzerman is the second greatest Red Wing of all-time, behind Gordie Howe. I was among those who said no. But I've since changed my mind. He is the second greatest Red Wing ever. Not the second greatest player to play for the Wings. Not as great as Sawchuk or Lindsay. But when you look at what Yzerman did, and what he meant to that team, yeah, he's the second greatest Wing ever.

I watched Yzerman play. I watched Sakic play. I believe that Yzerman was the better hockey player. You could make a case for Sakic. I think the beauty of the comparison is there are so many striking similarities. Both entered the league as fairly one-dimensional players. Both were basically one-man shows in their first few seasons. (Yzerman's one-man show lasted a little longer). Both were dogged by trade rumours at one point (Sakic in around 1993 and 1994, Yzerman in 1994 and 1995), but went on to play their entire career with one team). Both played at an incredibly high level for so long. Both captained multiple Cup champs. Both became excellent two-way forwards. Both are universally beloved in the game.

Like I said before, I think Yzerman was a better hockey player, but I have no qualms with those who argue Sakic.

Funny thing about that is that Bowman wanted Yzerman gone because he refused to play by the system and backcheck.

 

[canucks4ever]

Because everyone who have seen them play, would be going by ancient memory rather than fresh memory.



Yzerman doesn't need them because he dominated where and when it matters. Ovechkin might get there eventually, right now he's almost out of the race entirely, Crosby's looking much better but still isn't there either.

At the same time, a modern day elite player who sacrifices offense for defense can be found on the very same team as Yzerman before; Datsyuk. A case could easily be made that he's at the very least on the same level as Crosby, and easily a notch above Ovechkin. Is that laughable as well, just because he's not winning Art Ross or Rocket Richard? He too likes to win where it matters.

You can't value players solely on their offensive skills, which seems to be all that you value them on.

Yzerman likes to win when it matters the most? You do realize that he was a one dimensional player for the majority of his career and often had many shortcomings in the playoffs. Mike Keenan cut yzerman in 1991 for team canada because he wasn't a 200 foot player.It took adding fedorov, lidstrom, konstantinov, shanahan and a great coach that made him play defense in order for him to win. Anyone can win a cup with those red wings teams.

I only value players based on thier offensive skills? Yeah i find that very funny considering that syll apps and frank boucher are among the best playoff performers of thier own eras. A label that is never given to yzerman. Apps was considered one of the best captains and leaders of his own time and Boucher won many lady byngs in his era. Yzerman didnt seperate himself in any way, shape or form. Bill Cook was pretty much the jagr/lafluer/bossy of his days. He dominated the pcha and the post consolidated nhl to a degree higher than yzerman can claim, cook is yzerman's superior, nothing wiill change my opinion on that.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Funny thing about that is that Bowman wanted Yzerman gone because he refused to play by the system and backcheck.

That is absolutely not true what so ever!
Bowman wasn't sure if Stevie could play the way he wanted him to, not that he wouldn't.

Years later, Scotty admitted that he underestimated Stevie big time.

Either way, we're talking about one of the only players that was ever able to take some of the spotlight away from Gretzky and Lemieux.
A player that turned himself into one of the best defensive players and face off guys that still scored around a point per game.

Overrated my ass!

 

[Borlag]

Yzerman not amongst the best playoff performers of his era? Based on what exactly? Him having guys like Fedorov, Lidström, Konstantinov and Shanahan on the team? If that's what takes away his performance, which has been Conn Smythe worthy, then tell me just who do you consider to be amongst the best playoff performers of his era? Sakic? He played with guys like Forsberg, Blake, Bourque, Roy.

Simple fact is that without Steve Yzerman, Detroit would most likely still continue their cup drought. Without Stevie Y, Detroit wouldn't be the closest thing to a modern day dynasty. And despite all those other stars in Detroit when they won the cups, Steve Yzerman is the one who stands above them when it comes to both production as well as the hardware. Oh, and that one guy, Lemieux, couldn't win a cup without Scotty Bowman either, I guess he must suck as well.

 

[ThankYouBasedGod]

Funny thing about that is that Bowman wanted Yzerman gone because he refused to play by the system and backcheck.

This guy is a true winner. First he strictly bases how good players are on how many top ten finishes they have in terms of points and then he spouts off false information to help his case. Bowman has said he wasn't sure if he could play in the system, not that he wouldn't and that he underestimated Yzerman big time. Good one though, keep looking like a ****ing clown.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yzerman not amongst the best playoff performers of his era? Based on what exactly? Him having guys like Fedorov, Lidström, Konstantinov and Shanahan on the team? If that's what takes away his performance, which has been Conn Smythe worthy, then tell me just who do you consider to be amongst the best playoff performers of his era? Sakic? He played with guys like Forsberg, Blake, Bourque, Roy.

Simple fact is that without Steve Yzerman, Detroit would most likely still continue their cup drought. Without Stevie Y, Detroit wouldn't be the closest thing to a modern day dynasty. And despite all those other stars in Detroit when they won the cups, Steve Yzerman is the one who stands above them when it comes to both production as well as the hardware. Oh, and that one guy, Lemieux, couldn't win a cup without Scotty Bowman either, I guess he must suck as well.

Fedorov, Forsberg, Sakic, Roy, Messier, Lidstrom, Bourque and Jagr are all better playoff performers than yzerman. You can pretty much add crosby to the list too, when his career is over, his playoff resume will laugh at yzerman's.