What makes Yzerman rated so high

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Yzerman was great, but he get's so much unanimous praise, while with Selanne, people rarely bring up that he had to compete against Jagr and Lemieux, like they do with Yzerman having to compete with Gretzky and Mario.

Well, probably because Jagr, as great as he is, isn't Wayne effing Gretzky and he competed against late career Lemieux instead of peak Lemieux.

 

[Seanconn*]

Well, probably because Jagr, as great as he is, isn't Wayne effing Gretzky and he competed against late career Lemieux instead of peak Lemieux.

1992-1997 Lemieux isn't peak? maybe not 97... but anyone who scores 160 points, or 69 goals in 60 games, and is at some sort of peak.


Late career Lemieux is post 1997.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

1992-1997 Lemieux isn't peak? maybe not 97... but anyone who scores 160 points, or 69 goals in 60 games, and is at some sort of peak.

Well, his back spasms started to be a big issue around 91 and then he got cancer so I'd say he was at sub-100% after that. Selanne certainly never faced a healthy Lemieux.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Because he was amazing?

Who exactly are you comparing him to to say he is rated high?

 

[Big Phil]

Curiously, I would say that Joe Sakic was the same player, and his team success came during the peak of his offensive abilities. You could also say his entire career was a peak. Yet he's rated a bit lower than Yzerman for some reason.

You'll get legions of people who would take Sakic over Yzerman and vice versa on this board. These are two VERY similar players who are almost identically revered in their time. Yzerman early in his career was flashier although Sakic had his share for the theatrics too. That might be a reason people instantly pick Yzerman without looking deeper. Because to be honest with you I can have a debate with myself about these two and by the end of the debate I am no closer to picking one player than at the beginning.

 

[Big Phil]

You can do the same thing for other players, as well. specifically Teemu Selanne... except the two names would be Lemieux and Jagr instead.

Yzerman was great, but he get's so much unanimous praise, while with Selanne, people rarely bring up that he had to compete against Jagr and Lemieux, like they do with Yzerman having to compete with Gretzky and Mario.

A healthy Jagr in those years vs. Selanne won the scoring title no doubt. As we saw even Jagr playing in 75% of the games saw him win the scoring title once. You are right, Selanne wasn't going to win the scoring title with Jagr and Lemieux in there. One thing though is that Gretzky is in a class of his own when it comes to health, dominance and longevity.

Secondly, Selanne is a lock for the HHOF, first ballot. I'd love to see someone try and make a case against him now. However, while he redeemed himself a bit post lockout in the playoffs he was a terrible playoff performer pre-lockout relative to how he scored in the regular season. Yzerman may not have won the Cup early in his career, but he was never a bad playoff performer. That's one of a few differences between Selanne and Yzerman

 

[Sens Rule]

You can do the same thing for other players, as well. specifically Teemu Selanne... except the two names would be Lemieux and Jagr instead.

Yzerman was great, but he get's so much unanimous praise, while with Selanne, people rarely bring up that he had to compete against Jagr and Lemieux, like they do with Yzerman having to compete with Gretzky and Mario.

Except Yzerman was better than Selanne so it is a mute point.

 

[Blizzard]

You can do the same thing for other players, as well. specifically Teemu Selanne... except the two names would be Lemieux and Jagr instead.

Yzerman was great, but he get's so much unanimous praise, while with Selanne, people rarely bring up that he had to compete against Jagr and Lemieux, like they do with Yzerman having to compete with Gretzky and Mario.

If you are implying Selanne was at the same level as Yzerman he's not.

Yzerman played the center position at the same time as the two greatest centers ever, Gretzky and Lemieux, did which made it near impossible for him to ever get selected to the postseason All-Star teams.

Jagr, Forsberg, and Hull, none in the Gretzky or Lemieux class, are more along the lines you need to use if you want to compare. Add a few hundred assists, better defensive play, some postseason success, and a whole boatload of intangibles then Selanne may be mentioned in the same breath.

With that said he is still one helluva goal scorer and should make the HOF.

 

[Anthony*]

Except Yzerman was better than Selanne so it is a mute point.

mute?

learn english

 

[Sens Rule]

mute?

learn english

I meant no point in talking about it - silence or mute on the topic! Or maybe I meant moot. Thanks for the needed English lesson, really added to the hockey debate.

 

[steveott]

If you are implying Selanne was at the same level as Yzerman he's not.

Yzerman played the center position at the same time as the two greatest centers ever, Gretzky and Lemieux, did which made it near impossible for him to ever get selected to the postseason All-Star teams.

Jagr, Forsberg, and Hull, none in the Gretzky or Lemieux class, are more along the lines you need to use if you want to compare. Add a few hundred assists, better defensive play, some postseason success, and a whole boatload of intangibles then Selanne may be mentioned in the same breath.

With that said he is still one helluva goal scorer and should make the HOF.

I agree completely EXCEPT...
We are talking about 1st ballot HHOFs here: Jagr, Hull, Yzerman, Selanne

what the **** borderline "back door boy" a la ciccarelli is doing here??? (Forsberg)

If i wanna talk about Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe and Orr ..
Im sure gonna leave Pierre Turgeon out of that conversation.

 

[GKJ]

One of the things is that Yzerman completely transformed his game in the middle of his career.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

It's hard to not rate Yzerman high.

He did everything at an extremely high level.

Peak: Highest single season PT total outside of only Gretzky and Lemieux
Career: 6th all-time in points
Elite goal scorer and playmaker
Won a Selke
Has playoff success and a Conn Smythe
Was always gritty and never a floater
Played through and came back from horrific injuries
Classy player and recognized leader
Just one of the greatest ambassadors for the sport of all-time.

Despite being a "what if" player with all his injuries, Yzerman excelled at all parts of the game in his career. That it is virtually impossible to not like or respect him I'm sure helps.

 

[unknown33]

I agree completely EXCEPT...
We are talking about 1st ballot HHOFs here: Jagr, Hull, Yzerman, Selanne

what the **** borderline "back door boy" a la ciccarelli is doing here??? (Forsberg)

You're comparing Forsberg to Ciccarelli?

 

[steveott]

You're comparing Forsberg to Ciccarelli?

Not exactly. He is just latest borderline hhof - guy.

 

[stevecanuck16]

I personally find steve yzerman to be overrated, IMO syll apps and bill cook were easily better than him.

Posts like this are ridiculous. You never saw either guy play, much less play against Yzerman. Yet they're "easily better"? Ridiculous.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Secondly, Selanne is a lock for the HHOF, first ballot. I'd love to see someone try and make a case against him now. However, while he redeemed himself a bit post lockout in the playoffs he was a terrible playoff performer pre-lockout relative to how he scored in the regular season. Yzerman may not have won the Cup early in his career, but he was never a bad playoff performer. That's one of a few differences between Selanne and Yzerman

How often does HOH have to go over Selanne's pre-lockout playoff record? He played 28 of his 49 pre-lockout playoff games when he was a below point-per-game skater with San Jose and Colorado.

13 Goals in 21 Games with Winnipeg and Anaheim (teams went 6-15; he had 3 GWG)

5 Goals in 28 Games with San Jose and Colorado

Either HOH needs to acknowledge that prime Selanne has too small of a sample size upon which to judge him in the NHL playoffs, or they need to acknowledge that prior to the San Jose trade, he was scoring at a 50 goal pace on a .285 cumulative team record, and only declined severely at the same time as his regular season play when he was playing injured.

His career is segmented - maybe more than that of any other HOFer - and given the amount of times it has come up on here, the fact that the league acknowledged it with a Masterton Trophy, and how recent this has all occurred, there's little justification for lumping his years as an injured player in with his prime and calling him a terrible playoff performer without added context.

He was a bad playoff scorer when he was a bad regular season scorer pre-lockout; he was a good playoff scorer when he was a good regular season scorer pre-lockout. It trended perfectly with his injury.


Having said all of that, Yzerman is better than Teemu Selanne, but it is troubling to me how often I hear the argument that Gretzky and Lemieux somehow held Yzerman back from Harts and Art Rosses, when 1989 was the only year in which he placed immediately behind them.

Gretzky and Lemieux took two Art Rosses from Mark Messier (1987 and 1990).

Lemieux and Jagr took two Art Rosses from Teemu Selanne (1997 and 1999), and it can be argued that the injury he sustained in the Olympics took another from him in 1998 (he was leading the league with 41 Goals and 68 Points in 56 Games prior to the tournament).

Lemieux and Jagr took two Art Rosses from Joe Sakic (1996 and 2001).

Mario Lemieux took three Art Rosses from Wayne Gretzky (1988, 1989, and 1992).

Wayne Gretzky took two Art Rosses from Mario Lemieux (1986 and 1987).


Everyone is a victim.

 

[Blizzard]

I agree completely EXCEPT...
We are talking about 1st ballot HHOFs here: Jagr, Hull, Yzerman, Selanne

what the **** borderline "back door boy" a la ciccarelli is doing here??? (Forsberg)

If i wanna talk about Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe and Orr ..
Im sure gonna leave Pierre Turgeon out of that conversation.

And when we're talking comparisons amongst a players contemporaries Forsberg enters the mid-late nineties conversation, with Selanne, during his peak in an albeit short career.

And Dino is nowhere near the level of Forsberg who is arguably a first ballot Hall of Famer but that is way off this thread's topic and already being discussed elsewhere.

 

[Sens Rule]

Yzerman played a lot larger role in the Cup Championships the Wings won in 2002 when he was about the same age as Selanne did in his. Still Selanne won and there was nothing wrong with his play. But 2002 Yzerman was legendary, injured and carried the Wings through the early rounds on one leg. Same age.

Selanne was outstanding as a player. And he way have had both good moments and some excuses in the playoffs. Yzerman has actual great playoff results, a ton of them, and some truly legendary playoff runs. Thus making any kind of argument for Selanne to be near the equal of Yzerman in the playoffs is misguided.

Still Selanne is similar in having different parts of his career. Mega goal scorer, injured, dominant offensive star, injured, huge rebound to extremely effective scorer after the lockout. Put none of them really are near the Yzerman level, except maybe his rookie year in pure offence.

I think Yzerman is overstated as to the degree he changed. He was still a top echlon offensive player in the dead puck era as he became better defensively. And he was good at everything earlier in his career, he just WAS SUPPOSED to provide a ton of offence. He was on a Wings team that had a dearth of offensive talent and his role 24-25 minutes a night was to create offence. It was the best thing he could do to contribute to his team winning hockey games. As the Wings became much deeper and better with Fedorov, a strong defence and depth scoring, it became more effective TO THE WINGS WINNING for Yzerman to become an elite 2-way forward. To shut other teams down and also provide offence. Sure Bowman helped him to do that, as any good coach would he helped make the team effectively use its resources best, but Yzerman did it too.

Or take Coffey. He gets ripped on these boards for not being great defensively. THAT WAS NOR HIS ROLE. He was asked to run and gun with 99 and 66. And he was fantastic at it. Late in a close playoff game he could make amazing defensive plays. On the Wings he was much more relied on as a 2 way defenceman and he had his best defensive season there. Because he was a truly great player and a winner, he played in the most effective way he could help a team. And followed his coaches direction.

Bourque and Lidstrom played the same way their whole careers, balancing offence and defence (in different ways).

Howe would play defence at times.

Great players can do anything that is needed to win and they will do it. Good players like say Kovalev, or Heatley just play the same game regardless of circumstances. One trick ponies.

I think Yzerman was truly elite from his 4th year until 2002. If you look at his scoring stats it looks like he declined but he did not. He was just as elite of player, he just played a little differently. This is different from Gretzky say who actually did signifcantly decline as his scoring dropped. Yzerman did not decline at all. And his offensive peak is irrelevant. He had a VERY LONG actual peak. 15 year peak from 1987 to 2002. Those 15 years he was always a top 10 player, I think, in the league.

 

[unknown33]

Not exactly. He is just latest borderline hhof - guy.

How on earth is he borderline?
Name me one player with just 3/4 of his credentials who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

 

[eli J]

Why is he rated so highly?

 

[Ziostilon]

It's hard to not rate Yzerman high.

He did everything at an extremely high level.

Peak: Highest single season PT total outside of only Gretzky and Lemieux
Career: 6th all-time in points
Elite goal scorer and playmaker
Won a Selke
Has playoff success and a Conn Smythe
Was always gritty and never a floater
Played through and came back from horrific injuries
Classy player and recognized leader
Just one of the greatest ambassadors for the sport of all-time.

Despite being a "what if" player with all his injuries, Yzerman excelled at all parts of the game in his career. That it is virtually impossible to not like or respect him I'm sure helps.

i just don't really know what the criteria is anymore

does that mean Paul Kariya should be rated much higher.
top 10 in scoring x4
top 20 in scoring x6
a couple other all-star team selections

is it that far fetched to say Henrik Sedin should get rated in the top 100 all-time.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

i just don't really know what the criteria is anymore

does that mean Paul Kariya should be rated much higher.
top 10 in scoring x4
top 20 in scoring x6
a couple other all-star team selections

is it that far fetched to say Henrik Sedin should get rated in the top 100 all-time.

I have no idea what your point is.
Are you comparing Sedin and Kariya to Yzerman?
Are you statin they have excelled just as much as Yzerman?
I feel like I am missing something, because they are decidedly lacking in many of the points I brought up for Yzerman.

 

[Ziostilon]

I have no idea what your point is.
Are you comparing Sedin and Kariya to Yzerman?
Are you statin they have excelled just as much as Yzerman?
I feel like I am missing something, because they are decidedly lacking in many of the points I brought up for Yzerman.

im not trying to compare those players against Stevie Y

i'd like a basic criteria so i can rank those players that were brought up

i didn't really understand why Yzerman was rated at the spot he's at before this thread. so this thread has brought up some good points on what i should look for when im ranking players in the future

 

[steveott]

How on earth is he borderline?
Name me one player with just 3/4 of his credentials who isn't in the Hall of Fame.

It was deliberate provocation. I admit
However Foppa is NOT bullet proof 1st ballot guy. How good he ever was...
(Its not my fault. Induction committee prefers long careers)

The very reason I lost my temper at the first place was:

"Jagr, Forsberg, and Hull, none in the Gretzky or Lemieux class, are more along the lines you need to use if you want to compare (to Yzerman). Add a few hundred assists, better defensive play, some postseason success, and a whole boatload of intangibles then Selanne may be mentioned in the same breath"

well... last time i checked adjusted ALL TIME scoring leaders it looked like:

------------------------------
Gordie Howe 925
Gretzky 758
Brett Hull 738
Jagr 694
Selanne 672
Shanahan 672
Esposito 671
RRichard 653
Robitaille 652
Yzerman 644
Sakic 643

If i cannot mention Selanne in the same breath as Jagr and Hull then i have to turn to Howe, Gretzky, Shanahan and Esposito.
(Except Shanahans GPG is lousy. he's not sniper)

The best comparable from this bunch is INDEED Brett Hull. Hull's only advantage over Selanne is post season success (which is heavily team dependent issue).

Selanne is better playmaker. (And no Adam Oates around)