What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[AchtzehnBaby]

Didn't they make offers to all three? Idk, at best I'd say there is insufficient info to know if this was a rebuild by design or a rebuild forced upon them.

I still think they knew all the offers outside were going to be higher than their offers. They knew they would be going elsewhere. It was only to appease the fans that an offer was made... they were going to strip it down after they knew EK was heading out.

 

[Micklebot]

I still think they knew all the offers outside were going to be higher than their offers. They knew they would be going elsewhere. It was only to appease the fans that an offer was made... but they were going to strip t down

Sure, they new they would be outbid but kept negotiating and put off starting trade talks.

There's enough evidence to see what you want to see no matter which side you fall on, or alternatively, to accept that we can't be sure one way or the other. You can try to write of the parts that don't fit the explanation by saying it was to placate the fans, but at best you are still left with a lot of assumptions and conflicting evidence.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Sure, they new they would be outbid but kept negotiating and put off starting trade talks.

There's enough evidence to see what you want to see no matter which side you fall on, or alternatively, to accept that we can't be sure one way or the other. You can try to write of the parts that don't fit the explanation by saying it was to placate the fans, but at best you are still left with a lot of assumptions and conflicting evidence.

Agreed. It's a lot of assumptions and speculation.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I think they knew both Stone and Duchene were gone, but for political reasons, could not deal them in the summer of 2018 when their values would have been maximized. Ticket sales were already abysmal, and they were trying to sell the fans on the idea that while this was a rebuild, they weren't just auctioning off the stars. There was also Chabot and Tkachuk to deal with. They've had to actively sell both on the situation here. It clearly worked with Chabot, because he signed long term. Time will tell with Tkachuk, but judging by statements by his father, they weren't too happy about the Stone trade. Imagine if Stone and Duchene were dealt in the summer instead of at the deadline?

They made an offer to Stone, but it was below market value in one way or another. I believe the main criticism was that there wasn't full trade protection for the entirety of the contract. I can't imagine a player is going to give their prime to a rebuild if there is no guarantee that they will get to be part of things when they reach the back half of their contract. With Stone, I don't think it's a case where they would have upped their contract offer if the right trade wasn't on the table. I say this, because there were rumors that our back up trade was with the Islanders, and the return was Beauvillier + draft picks. That's not a strong enough return for a team to move on from a player for the sake of the return, they had to not want to pay Stone.

I don't think they ever got to making an offer to Duchene, because he didn't want to stay. Aside from the bonuses, I'd be shocked if they wouldn't have done the Nashville contract here. Unless something poisoned the well, Duchene seemed to be Dorion's white whale. While we were a bad team, and guys tend to inflate their production on bad teams, Duchene was a stud in his time here. Was he Crosby? No. But he was easily in that low end 1st line center tier, which is a very hard piece to get.

We apparently offered Dzingel 4.75M x 6 years. It was below market value at the time, but his market value quickly eroded because of his play in Columbus. I'm not sure what to think of this offer, because why didn't both sides circle back on July 1st when Dzingel's best offer turned out to be 2 years at 3.375M? I guess it's possible that Dzingel didn't want to be here, or we soured on him based on his play in Columbus.

 

[Samsquanch]

I think that a good deal of credit is due to management for understanding the necessity for a rebuild. We had Duchene, Karlsson and Stone and were not lighting the world on fire outside of the 2017 miracle run. I think it's something that had to happen, and kudos to management for getting assets for players that would have walked otherwise. Keeping 1 or 2 of them would not have changed our position today - in fact it would have made it substantially worse.

As for Dorion, he probably walked blindly into a solid deal that can lift the franchise, but it wasn't for lack of vision. This team in its current state is no better off with Karlsson than without.

This bolded part is so true that it hurts. And that's because there are still quite a few of us Sens fans that still arent willing to admit that.

In my opinion, while the last 5+ years would have had a lot more highs than lows than we currently just experienced, even if we go back and erase all the bad trades, we are still in a better position today to win a cup than we would be in that alternate universe.

Let's take back Silvferberg, Zibanejad, Stone, Turris, Dzingle, Methot, Bishop, and add them to the current core that we theoretically could still have, and I dont believe that group got us any further than we did.

There were too many better teams during that time. It was not the right time to peak.

Our time is coming soon in my mind, and every year it's getting further and further wide open for new teams to emerge as contenders.

 

[BatherSeason]

This bolded part is so true that it hurts. And that's because there are still quite a few of us Sens fans that still arent willing to admit that.

In my opinion, while the last 5+ years would have had a lot more highs than lows than we currently just experienced, even if we go back and erase all the bad trades, we are still in a better position today to win a cup than we would be in that alternate universe.

Let's take back Silvferberg, Zibanejad, Stone, Turris, Dzingle, Methot, Bishop, and add them to the current core that we theoretically could still have, and I dont believe that group got us any further than we did.

There were too many better teams during that time. It was not the right time to peak.

Our time is coming soon in my mind, and every year it's getting further and further wide open for new teams to emerge as contenders.

Re: bolded part comment

Locking up Stone long term and making him the captain of this young group would make this team substantially worse? Please explain.

Stone is exactly the type of leader this team will wish they had in 3-4 years. It would have helped Eugene sell a few more tickets too.

 

[Samsquanch]

Locking up Stone long term and making him the captain of this young group would make this team substantially worse??? Please explain.

Stone is exactly the type of leader this team will wish they had in 3-4 years. It would have helped Eugene sell a few more tickets too.

I'll bite.

Yes, I feel like 11 million spent on Stone would end up being a bad use of cap space for a budget team like Ottawa is, especially in the back half of the contract where he would likely be in decline.

But I also feel like it would have inevitably hurt our chances of picking as high as we can and will be at the draft, which is what we really need in 3 years from now.

And aside from that, his peak is not in line with age of the young core of this team. At least not at 11m per year. Yes his leadership and quality play will be missed. But were going to get him faster than you think. Honestly.

And stone deserves to go and try and win somewhere, so why cant we all be happy and move on.

 

[BatherSeason]

I'll bite.

Yes, I feel like 11 million spent on Stone would end up being a bad use of cap space for a budget team like Ottawa is, especially in the back half of the contract where he would likely be in decline.

But I also feel like it would have inevitably hurt our chances of picking as high as we can and will be at the draft, which is what we really need in 3 years from now.

And aside from that, his peak is not in line with age of the young core of this team. At least not at 11m per year. Yes his leadership and quality play will be missed. But were going to get him faster than you think. Honestly.

And stone deserves to go and try and win somewhere, so why cant we all be happy and move on.

Honestly wasn't trying to bait. Was curious what your thinking was behind your response and you made a pretty good argument.

 

[Sweatred]

I think they knew both Stone and Duchene were gone, but for political reasons, could not deal them in the summer of 2018 when their values would have been maximized. Ticket sales were already abysmal, and they were trying to sell the fans on the idea that while this was a rebuild, they weren't just auctioning off the stars. There was also Chabot and Tkachuk to deal with. They've had to actively sell both on the situation here. It clearly worked with Chabot, because he signed long term. Time will tell with Tkachuk, but judging by statements by his father, they weren't too happy about the Stone trade. Imagine if Stone and Duchene were dealt in the summer instead of at the deadline?

They made an offer to Stone, but it was below market value in one way or another. I believe the main criticism was that there wasn't full trade protection for the entirety of the contract. I can't imagine a player is going to give their prime to a rebuild if there is no guarantee that they will get to be part of things when they reach the back half of their contract. With Stone, I don't think it's a case where they would have upped their contract offer if the right trade wasn't on the table. I say this, because there were rumors that our back up trade was with the Islanders, and the return was Beauvillier + draft picks. That's not a strong enough return for a team to move on from a player for the sake of the return, they had to not want to pay Stone.

I don't think they ever got to making an offer to Duchene, because he didn't want to stay. Aside from the bonuses, I'd be shocked if they wouldn't have done the Nashville contract here. Unless something poisoned the well, Duchene seemed to be Dorion's white whale. While we were a bad team, and guys tend to inflate their production on bad teams, Duchene was a stud in his time here. Was he Crosby? No. But he was easily in that low end 1st line center tier, which is a very hard piece to get.

We apparently offered Dzingel 4.75M x 6 years. It was below market value at the time, but his market value quickly eroded because of his play in Columbus. I'm not sure what to think of this offer, because why didn't both sides circle back on July 1st when Dzingel's best offer turned out to be 2 years at 3.375M? I guess it's possible that Dzingel didn't want to be here, or we soured on him based on his play in Columbus.

I thought the Sens offered Dzingle less than 6 years . His girlfriend is a pro golfer who plays out of the South East US..

$3.375 in South Carolina with a happy girlfriend, nice weather, and lower taxes is unfortunately worth more to RD than $4.75 in Ottberia.

That’s why we have to consider trading players vs signing them. Other than the odd player like Alfy there is too much overpay involved in keeping players in Ottawa with our tax rate, weather, and lifestyle.

 

[Sensung]

That’s why we have to consider trading players vs signing them. Other than the odd player like Alfy there is too much overpay involved in keeping players in Ottawa with our tax rate, weather, and lifestyle.

Your strategy would see the Sens turn into the farm team for the league.

No thanks.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Your strategy would see the Sens turn into the farm team for the league.

No thanks.

Turn into?

 

[TkachukMyAho]

I'll bite.

Yes, I feel like 11 million spent on Stone would end up being a bad use of cap space for a budget team like Ottawa is, especially in the back half of the contract where he would likely be in decline.

But I also feel like it would have inevitably hurt our chances of picking as high as we can and will be at the draft, which is what we really need in 3 years from now.

And aside from that, his peak is not in line with age of the young core of this team. At least not at 11m per year. Yes his leadership and quality play will be missed. But were going to get him faster than you think. Honestly.

And stone deserves to go and try and win somewhere, so why cant we all be happy and move on.

Nailed it. It was just poor timing to offer that contract.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I thought the Sens offered Dzingle less than 6 years . His girlfriend is a pro golfer who plays out of the South East US..

$3.375 in South Carolina with a happy girlfriend, nice weather, and lower taxes is unfortunately worth more to RD than $4.75 in Ottberia.

That’s why we have to consider trading players vs signing them. Other than the odd player like Alfy there is too much overpay involved in keeping players in Ottawa with our tax rate, weather, and lifestyle.

Sorry, according to Garrioch, it was actually 5 years in excess of 20 million. So probably in the low 4 million range. I was mis-remembering, and got it mixed up with the infamous contract extension that Shawn Simpson claimed we offered Ceci, which according to him was apparently 6 x 4.75M.

So that's a pretty low ball offer considering how Dzingel was playing at the time before being traded. Obviously, it would have been a great July 1st offer after his value tanked. While my point isn't as dramatic with the lower contract number, it still stands. If they were willing to do 4.XX x 5 years before the trade deadline, and the best offer he received was 2 years at 3.XX, why didn't both sides circle back?

 

[Sweatred]

Sorry, according to Garrioch, it was actually 5 years in excess of 20 million. So probably in the low 4 million range. I was mis-remembering, and got it mixed up with the infamous contract extension that Shawn Simpson claimed we offered Ceci, which according to him was apparently 6 x 4.75M.

So that's a pretty low ball offer considering how Dzingel was playing at the time before being traded. Obviously, it would have been a great July 1st offer after his value tanked. While my point isn't as dramatic with the lower contract number, it still stands. If they were willing to do 4.XX x 5 years before the trade deadline, and the best offer he received was 2 years at 3.XX, why didn't both sides circle back?

I assume he bet on himself and preferred the SC location (Girlfriend) probably thinking he could get 2-3 more years at the end of his current 2 at $3.5+ The money after taxes is probably pretty close and worth a nice sun tan and happy GF.

These guys are close to the age where couples get married etc. Anderson’s has been living away from his family for years who have chosen to stay in Florida.

 

[jhutter]

I assume he bet on himself and preferred the SC location (Girlfriend) probably thinking he could get 2-3 more years at the end of his current 2 at $3.5+ The money after taxes is probably pretty close and worth a nice sun tan and happy GF.

These guys are close to the age where couples get married etc. Anderson’s has been living away from his family for years who have chosen to stay in Florida.

Andy's wife and kids have chosen to live in Florida for the last ten years? Yikes. That's a Mrs. Anderson problem.

 

[Sweatred]

Andy's wife and kids have chosen to live in Florida for the last ten years? Yikes. That's a Mrs. Anderson problem.

Not sure about 10.... but the last few for sure. They can visit and he is away half the time anyway during Ottberia’s winter. I get it.

 

[BatherSeason]

I assume he bet on himself and preferred the SC location (Girlfriend) probably thinking he could get 2-3 more years at the end of his current 2 at $3.5+ The money after taxes is probably pretty close and worth a nice sun tan and happy GF.

These guys are close to the age where couples get married etc. Anderson’s has been living away from his family for years who have chosen to stay in Florida.

All dollar figures aside, lets be honest here, these guys left because this org was an absolute tire fire. Im sure both money and location were also factors, but the circus was what drove these guys away. Yes it has gotten better, but for one whole calendar year, the Ottawa Senators organization was a joke.

 

[Sensung]

All dollar figures aside, lets be honest here, these guys left because this org was an absolute tire fire. Im sure both money and location were also factors, but the circus was what drove these guys away. Yes it has gotten better, but for one whole calendar year, the Ottawa Senators organization was a joke.

The smear campaign against EK and his leadership have never really answered why Stone, Duchene and Dzingle all jumped ship after the “problem in the room” was gone.

Maybe, just maybe, the issue was outside the dressing room...a fish rots from the head.

And the Sens are still a joke...the had a Little problem in case anyone forgot.

 

[Sweatred]

All dollar figures aside, lets be honest here, these guys left because this org was an absolute tire fire. Im sure both money and location were also factors, but the circus was what drove these guys away. Yes it has gotten better, but for one whole calendar year, the Ottawa Senators organization was a joke.

Definitely a huge part ... but I think RD was going where the GF wanted, MD was into his country music/hip town thing, and EK had 1000 reasons to leave Ottawa behind.

 

[LeProspector]

I hate people using the argument “Karlsson’s contract is bad, so he’s bad”.
Karlsson is still an elite player in this league; is he overpayed by a few million? yes maybe, but that doesn’t mean Karlsson is a bad player by any means and anyone who says he is is delusional.

 

[Crosside]

I hate people using the argument “Karlsson’s contract is bad, so he’s bad”.
Karlsson is still an elite player in this league; is he overpayed by a few million? yes maybe, but that doesn’t mean Karlsson is a bad player by any means and anyone who says he is is delusional.

On the ice my third favorite player of all time, it s off the rink the problem

 

[Sweatred]

I hate people using the argument “Karlsson’s contract is bad, so he’s bad”.
Karlsson is still an elite player in this league; is he overpayed by a few million? yes maybe, but that doesn’t mean Karlsson is a bad player by any means and anyone who says he is is delusional.

No one says he is a bad player. He just has a bad contract.

He could easily have $2-4 million of overpayment in every year in his deal for the first 4 years and than $4-7/yr of overpayment his final 4.

 

[topshelf15]

The deal turns out to be decent for us...The real problem lies in how long we had EK at his best and squandered him ,by never spending to put some pieces around him ....62 mil out of a 80 mil cap was the best EM could do???
Bolded is the exact reason as to why fans are still pissed off,when this rebuild is complete...Are we going to hear BS,or are we going to do whatever it takes to win ,including spend

 

[coladin]

Pretty much all of it.

ok

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Your strategy would see the Sens turn into the farm team for the league.

No thanks.

Exactly... I thought the point was to win the Stanley Cup.