What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

Discussion in 'Ottawa Senators' started by jhutter, Apr 22, 2020.

  1. Burrowsaurus Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    23,841
    Likes Received:
    3,960
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    I forget. When we traded ya shin did we know their pick was #2?
     
  2. bert Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    22,618
    Likes Received:
    5,917
    Trophy Points:
    232
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Home Page:
    Yes they did.
     
  3. NyQuil F.Y.O.U.S.

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    70,049
    Likes Received:
    16,596
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    Yeah, it's important to factor this in. The same applies to injuries incurred very early into the season.

    People were pretty brutal when it came to Nylander's contract but that season was always going to be a write-off.

    Once players fall behind, it's very hard for them to make up the lost ground later on.
     
  4. variable26 Global Matador

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,846
    Likes Received:
    2,137
    Trophy Points:
    126
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Kind of a side note.... it will be very interesting to see how all the players adjust to zero ice time for a few months.... or more. Most of these guys have been on the ice almost daily for their entire adult lives
     
  5. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,287
    Likes Received:
    9,148
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Not trying to suggest Nylander and Hossa are similar players, just that both struggled early in their careers come playoff time.

    I also think thhe bigger point was about not judging players based iff seasons where they missed training camp.

    Anyways, time will tell.

    Honestly though, i think as a complimentary player he is great,
     
  6. Peptic Balcers Registered User

    Joined:
    May 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    *looks up cap friendly*

    one of Tyler Johnson or Yanni Gourde will be an Ottawa Senator by the 2022/23 season
     
  7. Fenix Rises 2026 Alfie forever!

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    8,014
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Demelo has been converted into a 3rd round 2020 pick. Tierney will probably also be dealt at some point.

    I find it funny that some people would have been happier had we gotten a 2020 3rd rounder in the trade instead of Demelo.

    Well we got that AND two years of Demelo.
    It was a smart play imho.
     
    Sweatred likes this.
  8. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,287
    Likes Received:
    9,148
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    I think the frustration with DeMelo was he was a guy that wasn't qualified and could have been signed as a UFA. As a result, he was underrated upon his arrival. He really exceeded expectations including SJ's expectations based on the contract they signed him to.

    He was a really underrated add in the deal
     
  9. BondraTime Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    19,315
    Likes Received:
    8,589
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    East Coast
    I wouldn't have been happy with a 3rd, as I wasn't happy with Demelo, likewise with Tierny.

    Could care less about the 1.5 years he spent here, he meant nothing for the franchise other than a placeholder
     
  10. Burrowsaurus Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2013
    Messages:
    23,841
    Likes Received:
    3,960
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Interesting. Is it’s just one winner moving up a max of 4 spots. Do we still get the islanders pick if it wins ? Up to 17 overall
     
  11. Fenix Rises 2026 Alfie forever!

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    8,014
    Likes Received:
    939
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    I think dorion sees them as stop gaps too. If Tierney nets a 2nd and 3rd, the trade becomes

    Karl+perron
    For
    Norris, Balcers, One first, Three 2nds, Two 3rds and a bunch of freed up salary.

    I'm happy with that return. The time with Tierney and Demelo is just gravy. They are stopgap players that are better than the UFA alternatives Dorion could have landed.
     
  12. Sweatred Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,979
    Likes Received:
    702
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Without DD we’re forcing Jaros/Brann/Lajoie or another Hainsey type. He was a valuable piece.
     
  13. BondraTime Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    19,315
    Likes Received:
    8,589
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    East Coast
    Which I see as no big deal whatsoever. It’s very easy to get replacement level players through waivers, we finished last and 2nd last with Demelo, the difference between Demelo and someone else would’t have done anything positive or negative in the long run, we would still have finished last and 2nd last.

    Being a warm body isn’t a valuable piece. Warm bodies are the easiest thing to get, because they literally are just there to take up space for a time frame where you try and get someone who is valuable for the teams future to take it.
     
  14. alfstheman Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    91
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    I disagree, Demelo was arguably our best defence last year. Without him who knows we might have been down there with detroit. We were in almost every game this year, made it more exciting for the fans and the younger guys will be even more hungry next year with added confidence instead of having gone through a deflating season with frequent blowouts most games.
     
    IlTerrifico and Ed Wood like this.
  15. BondraTime Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    19,315
    Likes Received:
    8,589
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    East Coast
    Easily the most over-rated Sen the past 2 seasons for me, without competition.

    He's a stable bottom pairing guy who won't lose, or win, games for you

    Sens were 5-7-1 without Demelo, and 20-28-11 with him.
     
  16. alfstheman Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    91
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    That sounds pretty good when the rest of our defence wont win games either, but will lose them. Branstrom and chabot are better off learning defence from demelo than some old vet who is too slow to actually demonstrate what proper defence looks like.
     
  17. BondraTime Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    19,315
    Likes Received:
    8,589
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    East Coast
    Demelo has essentially the same experience in the NHL as Chabot, aside from the big minutes and tough assignments Chabot already gets. He has 60 more games played.

    I'd wager quite a bit Hainsey taught Chabot a lot more than Demelo, even with Demelo being better at the moment.
     
  18. Sweatred Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2019
    Messages:
    2,979
    Likes Received:
    702
    Trophy Points:
    84
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Gender:
    Male
    I disagree ... right or wrong the world thought this org was a tire fire last year.... we finished 2ND last and most of the forum through we were “too good” most of the season. We needed some stability. He gave us a perfect amount.
     
  19. Beville #ForTheBoys

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    973
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Occupation:
    Linesman
    Location:
    Engerlanddd!
    At the time, like most I thought it was a terrible trade..

    now I’ve adjusted to life without EK65, and moved on, hindsight shows it really was a good trade but mostly down to luck - namely, EK and SJS not doing very well.
     
    BatherSeason likes this.
  20. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,287
    Likes Received:
    9,148
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    The way I look at it, if Karlsson were continuing to be a Norris caliber dman, we'd still have a decent return for what we gave up.

    - Norris has exceeded (my) expectations in a big way,
    - DeMelo turned out to be more than a throw in
    - Balcers looks like a legit prospect, could be a top 9 scoring winger
    - Tierney is probably more valuable than most give credit, even if I'm not a fan.

    This picks though, they are what sways the trades value;
    2020 1st: expected it to be in the 20 to 31 range, it's got the 3rd best odds in the lottery.
    2019 2nd: I don't like how we traded it, but it's a decent pick
    2021 2nd: Could be worth more than expected if the Sharks continue to flounder.

    If we get a top 3 pick out of this that's a solid return for an elite dman.
     
    Beville likes this.
  21. Samsquanch Raging Bull Squatch

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,865
    Likes Received:
    1,604
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Sudbury
    Pretty interesting thread on the sharks board. Its about a quote from John Scott on Erik Karlsson;

    Most of the Sharks fans are somewhat in denial and saying that Scott is lying basically, but it really doesnt seem that hard to me from what we saw out of the lifeless Sharks this season...

    Bottom line is that Karlsson was King Karlsson here. On and off the ice. His play allowed him to reach that status, and it seemed to match his big and confident personality.

    Hes not the same player on the ice that he was in Ottawa anymore, and while Im sure hes dialed the alpha male/boss of the room vibe back considerably since he arrived in SJ as the new guy, chances are that hes still adjusting to his new life as a "former top dog", and now just another cog in the wheel. And that might be harder for him to do than he expected it to be, and if I had a guess, the cocky and vocal guy that he is will rub some people the wrong way. Especially if hes half assing it on D.

    It did in Ottawa, even with his status there. And I remember getting a vibe of a lot more general sadness among the remaining players when Stone left as opposed to when Karlsson did.

    Just my 2 cents anyways..
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  22. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,287
    Likes Received:
    9,148
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Checking out was something he did here too when things were going really poorly imo. Add in that he had a baby right at the start of the season and has had injury issues popping up every time he gets into a grove pretty much his whole time there and I can believe that he's not dialed in there.

    As for Stone vs Karlsson, that's to be expected. We had Karlsson is getting traded drama for 9 straight months including a couple false alarms that he had been traded. Players had lots of time to come to terms with the reality that he was getting shipped out, while with Stone it happened at the deadline and there was always a glimmer of hope he'd be re-signed and they had games to focus on.

    I suspect a new season along with being more adapted to life as a new father will reset his "give a crap" meter, which could result in a quick turn around for both him and the team.
     
    Samsquanch likes this.
  23. Samsquanch Raging Bull Squatch

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,865
    Likes Received:
    1,604
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Location:
    Sudbury
    Your first paragraph really sums it up.

    Although yeah I agree that if they start winning again next season, all of this talk probably goes away pretty quickly.
     
  24. KT7 Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    81
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    I think that a good deal of credit is due to management for understanding the necessity for a rebuild. We had Duchene, Karlsson and Stone and were not lighting the world on fire outside of the 2017 miracle run. I think it's something that had to happen, and kudos to management for getting assets for players that would have walked otherwise. Keeping 1 or 2 of them would not have changed our position today - in fact it would have made it substantially worse.

    As for Dorion, he probably walked blindly into a solid deal that can lift the franchise, but it wasn't for lack of vision. This team in its current state is no better off with Karlsson than without.
     
    Samsquanch likes this.
  25. Micklebot Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    32,287
    Likes Received:
    9,148
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 100,000
    Didn't they make offers to all three? Idk, at best I'd say there is insufficient info to know if this was a rebuild by design or a rebuild forced upon them.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"