What Level of Credit is Due to Dorion for the Karlsson Deal?

[Burrowsaurus]

But if their pick lands #1 and we get Lafreniere, it'll easily rival the Yashin for Spezza/Chara deal.

I forget. When we traded ya shin did we know their pick was #2?

 

[bert]

I forget. When we traded ya shin did we know their pick was #2?

Yes they did.

 

[NyQuil]

Personally, I write off any season where a player misses training camp.

Yeah, it's important to factor this in. The same applies to injuries incurred very early into the season.

People were pretty brutal when it came to Nylander's contract but that season was always going to be a write-off.

Once players fall behind, it's very hard for them to make up the lost ground later on.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Yeah, it's important to factor this in. The same applies to injuries incurred very early into the season.

People were pretty brutal when it came to Nylander's contract but that season was always going to be a write-off.

Once players fall behind, it's very hard for them to make up the lost ground later on.

Kind of a side note.... it will be very interesting to see how all the players adjust to zero ice time for a few months.... or more. Most of these guys have been on the ice almost daily for their entire adult lives

 

[Micklebot]

Hossa didnt shy away from contact he engaged, polar opposites. I actually cant think of two players that are more different in my opinion. I am talking about visually watching him give up against boston, it was almost unbelievable.

Incredibly I cant find the entire sequence where Hrudey breaks down several of his plays giving up on the puck. I guess the leafs really do have some serious power in what is released in the media. It all stemmed from this play though

Anyway I think yes he could engage more from a physical stand point he is a long way from developing into the complete player he can become. However when you couple it all with his history, playing style id be suprised. His social interactions also dont suggest he is the hardest guy and he doesn seem to mind that extravigant lifestyle.


.

Not trying to suggest Nylander and Hossa are similar players, just that both struggled early in their careers come playoff time.

I also think thhe bigger point was about not judging players based iff seasons where they missed training camp.

Anyways, time will tell.

Honestly though, i think as a complimentary player he is great,

 

[Peptic Balcers]

Doesn't Tampa Bay have a couple?

*looks up cap friendly*

one of Tyler Johnson or Yanni Gourde will be an Ottawa Senator by the 2022/23 season

 

[dumbdick]

Deserves credit on everything aside from the high 1st. He got a first, we absolutely lucked into it being a top 3ish pick.

I still don’t think the inclusions of Tierny or Demelo were good moves whatsoever, but they were warm bodies to go with the prospect (Norris) and picks we got that will likely be apart of the Sens future.

Demelo has been converted into a 3rd round 2020 pick. Tierney will probably also be dealt at some point.

I find it funny that some people would have been happier had we gotten a 2020 3rd rounder in the trade instead of Demelo.

Well we got that AND two years of Demelo.
It was a smart play imho.

 

[Micklebot]

Demelo has been converted into a 3rd round 2020 pick. Tierney will probably also be dealt at some point.

I find it funny that some people would have been happier had we gotten a 2020 3rd rounder in the trade instead of Demelo.

Well we got that AND two years of Demelo.
It was a smart play imho.

I think the frustration with DeMelo was he was a guy that wasn't qualified and could have been signed as a UFA. As a result, he was underrated upon his arrival. He really exceeded expectations including SJ's expectations based on the contract they signed him to.

He was a really underrated add in the deal

 

[BondraTime]

Demelo has been converted into a 3rd round 2020 pick. Tierney will probably also be dealt at some point.

I find it funny that some people would have been happier had we gotten a 2020 3rd rounder in the trade instead of Demelo.

Well we got that AND two years of Demelo.
It was a smart play imho.

I wouldn't have been happy with a 3rd, as I wasn't happy with Demelo, likewise with Tierny.

Could care less about the 1.5 years he spent here, he meant nothing for the franchise other than a placeholder

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Interesting. Is it’s just one winner moving up a max of 4 spots. Do we still get the islanders pick if it wins ? Up to 17 overall

 

[dumbdick]

I wouldn't have been happy with a 3rd, as I wasn't happy with Demelo, likewise with Tierny.

Could care less about the 1.5 years he spent here, he meant nothing for the franchise other than a placeholder

I think dorion sees them as stop gaps too. If Tierney nets a 2nd and 3rd, the trade becomes

Karl+perron
For
Norris, Balcers, One first, Three 2nds, Two 3rds and a bunch of freed up salary.

I'm happy with that return. The time with Tierney and Demelo is just gravy. They are stopgap players that are better than the UFA alternatives Dorion could have landed.

 

[Sweatred]

I wouldn't have been happy with a 3rd, as I wasn't happy with Demelo, likewise with Tierny.

Could care less about the 1.5 years he spent here, he meant nothing for the franchise other than a placeholder

Without DD we’re forcing Jaros/Brann/Lajoie or another Hainsey type. He was a valuable piece.

 

[BondraTime]

Without DD we’re forcing Jaros/Brann/Lajoie or another Hainsey type. He was a valuable piece.

Which I see as no big deal whatsoever. It’s very easy to get replacement level players through waivers, we finished last and 2nd last with Demelo, the difference between Demelo and someone else would’t have done anything positive or negative in the long run, we would still have finished last and 2nd last.

Being a warm body isn’t a valuable piece. Warm bodies are the easiest thing to get, because they literally are just there to take up space for a time frame where you try and get someone who is valuable for the teams future to take it.

 

[alfstheman]

Which I see as no big deal whatsoever. It’s very easy to get replacement level players through waivers, we finished last and 2nd last with Demelo, the difference between Demelo and someone else would’t have done anything positive or negative in the long run, we would still have finished last and 2nd last.

Being a warm body isn’t a valuable piece. Warm bodies are the easiest thing to get, because they literally are just there to take up space for a time frame where you try and get someone who is valuable for the teams future to take it.

I disagree, Demelo was arguably our best defence last year. Without him who knows we might have been down there with detroit. We were in almost every game this year, made it more exciting for the fans and the younger guys will be even more hungry next year with added confidence instead of having gone through a deflating season with frequent blowouts most games.

 

[BondraTime]

I disagree, Demelo was arguably our best defence last year. Without him who knows we might have been down there with detroit. We were in almost every game this year, made it more exciting for the fans and the younger guys will be even more hungry next year with added confidence instead of having gone through a deflating season with frequent blowouts most games.

Easily the most over-rated Sen the past 2 seasons for me, without competition.

He's a stable bottom pairing guy who won't lose, or win, games for you

Sens were 5-7-1 without Demelo, and 20-28-11 with him.

 

[alfstheman]

Easily the most over-rated Sen the past 2 seasons for me, without competition.

He's a stable bottom pairing guy who won't lose, or win, games for you

That sounds pretty good when the rest of our defence wont win games either, but will lose them. Branstrom and chabot are better off learning defence from demelo than some old vet who is too slow to actually demonstrate what proper defence looks like.

 

[BondraTime]

That sounds pretty good when the rest of our defence wont win games either, but will lose them. Branstrom and chabot are better off learning defence from demelo than some old vet who is too slow to actually demonstrate what proper defence looks like.

Demelo has essentially the same experience in the NHL as Chabot, aside from the big minutes and tough assignments Chabot already gets. He has 60 more games played.

I'd wager quite a bit Hainsey taught Chabot a lot more than Demelo, even with Demelo being better at the moment.

 

[Sweatred]

Which I see as no big deal whatsoever. It’s very easy to get replacement level players through waivers, we finished last and 2nd last with Demelo, the difference between Demelo and someone else would’t have done anything positive or negative in the long run, we would still have finished last and 2nd last.

Being a warm body isn’t a valuable piece. Warm bodies are the easiest thing to get, because they literally are just there to take up space for a time frame where you try and get someone who is valuable for the teams future to take it.

I disagree ... right or wrong the world thought this org was a tire fire last year.... we finished 2ND last and most of the forum through we were “too good” most of the season. We needed some stability. He gave us a perfect amount.

 

[Beville]

At the time, like most I thought it was a terrible trade..

now I’ve adjusted to life without EK65, and moved on, hindsight shows it really was a good trade but mostly down to luck - namely, EK and SJS not doing very well.

 

[Micklebot]

At the time, like most I thought it was a terrible trade..

now I’ve adjusted to life without EK65, and moved on, hindsight shows it really was a good trade but mostly down to luck - namely, EK and SJS not doing very well.

The way I look at it, if Karlsson were continuing to be a Norris caliber dman, we'd still have a decent return for what we gave up.

- Norris has exceeded (my) expectations in a big way,
- DeMelo turned out to be more than a throw in
- Balcers looks like a legit prospect, could be a top 9 scoring winger
- Tierney is probably more valuable than most give credit, even if I'm not a fan.

This picks though, they are what sways the trades value;
2020 1st: expected it to be in the 20 to 31 range, it's got the 3rd best odds in the lottery.
2019 2nd: I don't like how we traded it, but it's a decent pick
2021 2nd: Could be worth more than expected if the Sharks continue to flounder.

If we get a top 3 pick out of this that's a solid return for an elite dman.

 

[Samsquanch]

Pretty interesting thread on the sharks board. Its about a quote from John Scott on Erik Karlsson;

How much of that is because of Karlsson? That’s tough to know, and it would probably be unfair to pin the blame solely on one player. But former Sharks forward John Scott revealed in January on his “Dropping the Gloves” podcast that Karlsson’s personality might not be meshing very well with everyone else.
After mentioning that he had dinner with some of his former Sharks teammates, Scott said he asked them about Karlsson.
“I’m not going to say who answered the question, but they’re like, yeah, he’s terrible. He’s checked out, he’s not invested, and he just does not want to play, really. Maybe I’m paraphrasing words,” Scott said.
Scott’s co-host added: “We asked them, what’s he like? And all they could say is that he talks a lot. That was the only thing they said about him. He talks a lot.”
“Talks a lot and doesn’t really do much,” Scott said. “It’s concerning. We were talking to guys on the Sharks, and they know. I don’t see how he lasts there. I really don’t.”

Most of the Sharks fans are somewhat in denial and saying that Scott is lying basically, but it really doesnt seem that hard to me from what we saw out of the lifeless Sharks this season...

Bottom line is that Karlsson was King Karlsson here. On and off the ice. His play allowed him to reach that status, and it seemed to match his big and confident personality.

Hes not the same player on the ice that he was in Ottawa anymore, and while Im sure hes dialed the alpha male/boss of the room vibe back considerably since he arrived in SJ as the new guy, chances are that hes still adjusting to his new life as a "former top dog", and now just another cog in the wheel. And that might be harder for him to do than he expected it to be, and if I had a guess, the cocky and vocal guy that he is will rub some people the wrong way. Especially if hes half assing it on D.

It did in Ottawa, even with his status there. And I remember getting a vibe of a lot more general sadness among the remaining players when Stone left as opposed to when Karlsson did.

Just my 2 cents anyways..

 

[Micklebot]

Pretty interesting thread on the sharks board. Its about a quote from John Scott on Erik Karlsson;



Most of the Sharks fans are somewhat in denial and saying that Scott is lying basically, but it really doesnt seem that hard to me based on what we saw from the lifeless Sharks this season...

Bottom line is that Karlsson was King Karlsson here. On and off the ice. His play allowed him to reach that status, and it seemed to match his big and confident personality.

Hes not the same player on the ice that he was in Ottawa anymore, and while Im sure hes dialed the alpha male/boss of the room vibe back considerably since he arrived in SJ as the new guy, Im sure that hes still adjusting to his new life as a "former top dog". And that might be harder for him to do than he expected, if I had a guess, the cocky and vocal guy that he is going to be sometimes will rub some people the wrong way. It did in Ottawa, even with his status there. And I remember getting a vibe of a lot more general sadness among the remaining players when Stone left as opposed to when Karlsson did.

Just my 2 cents anyways..

Checking out was something he did here too when things were going really poorly imo. Add in that he had a baby right at the start of the season and has had injury issues popping up every time he gets into a grove pretty much his whole time there and I can believe that he's not dialed in there.

As for Stone vs Karlsson, that's to be expected. We had Karlsson is getting traded drama for 9 straight months including a couple false alarms that he had been traded. Players had lots of time to come to terms with the reality that he was getting shipped out, while with Stone it happened at the deadline and there was always a glimmer of hope he'd be re-signed and they had games to focus on.

I suspect a new season along with being more adapted to life as a new father will reset his "give a crap" meter, which could result in a quick turn around for both him and the team.

 

[Samsquanch]

Checking out was something he did here too when things were going really poorly imo. Add in that he had a baby right at the start of the season and has had injury issues popping up every time he gets into a grove pretty much his whole time there and I can believe that he's not dialed in there.

As for Stone vs Karlsson, that's to be expected. We had Karlsson is getting traded drama for 9 straight months including a couple false alarms that he had been traded. Players had lots of time to come to terms with the reality that he was getting shipped out, while with Stone it happened at the deadline and there was always a glimmer of hope he'd be re-signed and they had games to focus on.

I suspect a new season along with being more adapted to life as a new father will reset his "give a crap" meter, which could result in a quick turn around for both him and the team.

Your first paragraph really sums it up.

Although yeah I agree that if they start winning again next season, all of this talk probably goes away pretty quickly.

 

[TkachukMyAho]

I think that a good deal of credit is due to management for understanding the necessity for a rebuild. We had Duchene, Karlsson and Stone and were not lighting the world on fire outside of the 2017 miracle run. I think it's something that had to happen, and kudos to management for getting assets for players that would have walked otherwise. Keeping 1 or 2 of them would not have changed our position today - in fact it would have made it substantially worse.

As for Dorion, he probably walked blindly into a solid deal that can lift the franchise, but it wasn't for lack of vision. This team in its current state is no better off with Karlsson than without.

 

[Micklebot]

I think that a good deal of credit is due to management for understanding the necessity for a rebuild. We had Duchene, Karlsson and Stone and were not lighting the world on fire outside of the 2017 miracle run. I think it's something that had to happen, and kudos to management for getting assets for players that would have walked otherwise. Keeping 1 or 2 of them would not have changed our position today - in fact it would have made it substantially worse.

As for Dorion, he probably walked blindly into a solid deal that can lift the franchise, but it wasn't for lack of vision. This team in its current state is no better off with Karlsson than without.

Didn't they make offers to all three? Idk, at best I'd say there is insufficient info to know if this was a rebuild by design or a rebuild forced upon them.