Line Combos: What is the likelihood that Dubas adds toughness to the team next season?

[ACC1224]

That’s what makes this so blatant - the Leafs were clearly the better team.

The glaring hole is in grit and ‘hard to play against’ ... the teams who’ve been successful recently, have it in spades. The elite talent at the top is important, but the composition of your depth support matters.

Bringing in cheap players like Nick Petan shows Dubas just doesn’t get it. Trevor Moore? Yes, he has balls. Petan? For what?

Exactly.
Coyle was an excellent deadline pickup.

 

[Sypher04]

That’s what makes this so blatant - the Leafs were clearly the better team.

The glaring hole is in grit and ‘hard to play against’ ... the teams who’ve been successful recently, have it in spades. The elite talent at the top is important, but the composition of your depth support matters.

Bringing in cheap players like Nick Petan shows Dubas just doesn’t get it. Trevor Moore? Yes, he has balls. Petan? For what?

Except it's not the glaring hole. Our biggest issues were penalty killing which has little to nothing to do with grit, Kadri voluntarily removing himself from the series and lack of quality defensive depth which yet again isn't a grit problem.

We had Gardiner & Dermott both playing with really significant injuries and looked like it. Every team deals with injuries, I get that, and it's not me making excuses here, so much as I'm saying we needed more behind these guys so we could be in a position where they didn't play.

If you want to chastise Dubas for something, and you clearly do, at least pick something legitimate like overestimating his depth defense. I doubt he makes that mistake again.

And why are we even talking about Petan? He traded out a completely useless player in Par Lindholm for a player who didn't end up playing. The difference being the one he got back has upside, is way younger and isn't on an expiring contract.

 

[sparxx87]

Bruins (30.1) and St.Louis (29.6) are 11th and 13th in playoff hits/gm.

Toronto was 8th (35.6)

Carolina was 9th (34.7)

Hitting plays a part, but toughness extends well beyond.

Kadri and Hyman are two players that are suited to raise their game in the playoffs. Matthews was good, Tavares was good. You need more from Marner and Nylander... if you won’t get it, you need to supplement somewhere else. Johnsson and Kapanen were predictably underwhelming and nobody else matters.

Muzzin is the only guy who even registers on the blueline. Rielly is fine because he competes but you’d love some more nasty from him. Zaitsev has his moments, and there’s a huge drop off after that.


They need to get nastier or they’ll never win anything. I wonder how many more first round exits it’ll take before that clicks?

 

[18leafsfan18]

Counting hits is not how you measure the requisite toughness/grit/character needed for playoff hockey.

Does anything really ?

It's an opinion and that's why I added a stat. The Leafs were just as "tough" as the Bruins.

What does toughness mean in hockey if hits isn't included ?

 

[18leafsfan18]

Hitting plays a part, but toughness extends well beyond.

Kadri and Hyman are two players that are suited to raise their game in the playoffs. Matthews was good, Tavares was good. You need more from Marner and Nylander... if you won’t get it, you need to supplement somewhere else. Johnsson and Kapanen were predictably underwhelming and nobody else matters.

Muzzin is the only guy who even registers on the blueline. Rielly is fine because he competes but you’d love some more nasty from him. Zaitsev has his moments, and there’s a huge drop off after that.


They need to get nastier or they’ll never win anything. I wonder how many more first round exits it’ll take before that clicks?

Yeah, I guess 2 or 3 more "face washes" and they would be through to round 2.

Let's just ignore the bad PK and PP as well as losing a 3rd line Center for the entire series (Causing Babcock to play Nylander in a shutdown role, which doesn't suit him), 2 of you top 4 D playing injured etc.

They still went to game 7. Toughness is so overrated on this board.

 

[sparxx87]

Except it's not the glaring hole. Our biggest issues were penalty killing which has little to nothing to do with grit, Kadri voluntarily removing himself from the series and lack of quality defensive depth which yet again isn't a grit problem.

We had Gardiner & Dermott both playing with really significant injuries and looked like it. Every team deals with injuries, I get that, and it's not me making excuses here, so much as I'm saying we needed more behind these guys so we could be in a position where they didn't play.

If you want to chastise Dubas for something, and you clearly do, at least pick something legitimate like overestimating his depth defense. I doubt he makes that mistake again.

And why are we even talking about Petan? He traded out a completely useless player in Par Lindholm for a player who didn't end up playing. The difference being the one he got back has upside, is way younger and isn't on an expiring contract.

PK was a small sample size from a group that we know to be better.

The Petan deal, you’re right isn’t really relevant, but it shows the flawed philosophy. Petan has no place on the team as it’s currently constructed. They moved a useful player for one who had no use. I would bet my left nut Babcocks reaction was “wtf?”

Dubas just keep doubling down on stupid. As someone who always wants the Leafs to be successful, this summer really scares me with him at the wheel. I almost can’t watch.

 

[ACC1224]

Yeah, I guess 2 or 3 more "face washes" and they would be through to round 2.

Let's just ignore the bad PK and PP as well as losing a 3rd line Center for the entire series (Causing Babcock to play Nylander in a shutdown role, which doesn't suit him), 2 of you top 4 D playing injured etc.

They still went to game 7. Toughness is so overrated on this board.

It's definately misunderstood.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah, I guess 2 or 3 more "face washes" and they would be through to round 2.

Let's just ignore the bad PK and PP as well as losing a 3rd line Center for the entire series (Causing Babcock to play Nylander in a shutdown role, which doesn't suit him), 2 of you top 4 D playing injured etc.

They still went to game 7. Toughness is so overrated on this board.

Toughness is valued on the ice and in the locker room. Pretending I’m talking about face washes proves you just don’t get it.

The disconnect seems to come from those on the internet or outside the game.

 

[Sypher04]

Fact of the matter is the Leafs don't need to "out-tough" their opponent.

The Leafs were the better team for long stretches of the series vs Boston. They ultimately shot themselves in the foot with some subpar goaltending, subpar penalty killing, and lacking the depth to cover for very very significant defensive injuries.

Would I be upset if you got a little more sandpaper if the players fits on skill etc? absolutely not. But it should not be a focus.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Toughness is valued on the ice and in the locker room. Pretending I’m talking about face washes proves you just don’t get it.

The disconnect seems to come from those on the internet or outside the game.

Didn't realize this board had to be so serious all the time, a couple jokes and I have no clue what I'm talking about apparently.

You have no clue about my credentials (Playing and watching hockey my whole life) and I have no clue about yours (I assume fairly close to the same). We are both on an internet forum so I assume we both aren't experts in any way.

How does the "toughness" you talk about win game 7 for the Leafs ?

Pretty easy to see how PK, PP and better play could.

 

[Sypher04]

PK was a small sample size from a group that we know to be better.

The Petan deal, you’re right isn’t really relevant, but it shows the flawed philosophy. Petan has no place on the team as it’s currently constructed. They moved a useful player for one who had no use. I would bet my left nut Babcocks reaction was “wtf?”

Dubas just keep doubling down on stupid. As someone who always wants the Leafs to be successful, this summer really scares me with him at the wheel. I almost can’t watch.

Your first mistake is thinking Lindholm was remotely useful. He was the definition of a useless.

 

[sparxx87]

Your first mistake is thinking Lindholm was remotely useful. He was the definition of a useless.

On a Mike Babcock team, Par Lindholm was a much better 13th FWD than Petan.

It’s a very insignificant one, but to me, shines light on the varying philosophies between the coach and the GM.

Babcock and Dubas can’t coexist. One guy takes the pulse, the other guy crunches numbers... It couldn’t be a more ridiculous situation for either of them.

 

[sparxx87]

Didn't realize this board had to be so serious all the time, a couple jokes and I have no clue what I'm talking about apparently.

You have no clue about my credentials (Playing and watching hockey my whole life) and I have no clue about yours (I assume fairly close to the same). We are both on an internet forum so I assume we both aren't experts in any way.

How does the "toughness" you talk about win game 7 for the Leafs ?

Pretty easy to see how PK, PP and better play could.

Fearlessness, that’s a better word. The Leafs have Kadri and Hyman who play fearless up front. They need more of that, and in useful packages like the two guys I mention.

Apologies if it came off insulting but I think you know what I mean. For me, it’s always easy to pick out those who’ve learned from the inside vs those who’ve done so from the sideline. It doesn’t make anyone’s opinion less welcome, but it creates a bit of a disconnect.


I want guys who’ll take off their cup and block shots to win a game. That type of fearlessness can be a difference maker with two evenly matched teams... The Leafs are short on guys willing to do this.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Fearlessness, that’s a better word. The Leafs have Kadri and Hyman who play fearless up front. They need more of that, and in useful packages like the two guys I mention.

Apologies if it came off insulting but I think you know what I mean. For me, it’s always easy to pick out those who’ve learned from the inside vs those who’ve done so from the sideline. It doesn’t make anyone’s opinion less welcome, but it creates a bit of a disconnect.


I want guys who’ll take off their cup and block shots to win a game. That type of fearlessness can be a difference maker with two evenly matched teams... The Leafs are short on guys willing to do this.

I disagree that they are short on guys to do that, but opinions are opinions. Agree to disagree, but with the current management they seem to be leaning this way.

Marner showed it at the end of one of the games (4 i think), other guys stepped up their physicality as well.

I just think it is way easier to see a "physical" player get more points then he normally does then have a skilled player prove his physicality.

 

[18leafsfan18]

On a Mike Babcock team, Par Lindholm was a much better 13th FWD than Petan.

It’s a very insignificant one, but to me, shines light on the varying philosophies between the coach and the GM.

Babcock and Dubas can’t coexist. One guy takes the pulse, the other guy crunches numbers... It couldn’t be a more ridiculous situation for either of them.

Don't think they will coexist.

Leafs were awful on Special Teams and the Assistant Coaches got canned for it (or were given permission to explore opportunities).

They brought in a new assistant coach that lead the Panthers to the #2 PP in hockey last year.

Leafs just resigned Keefe for 2 years.

Looks like if Babcock doesn't deliver on this upcoming season he is the next one gone.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The OP should be reworded to "Do you think Dubas will continue adding toughness this offseason?". Other than Petan and Ennis (both fiesty for midgets), what softness has he brought in?

 

[ShaneFalco]

The OP should be reworded to "Do you think Dubas will continue adding toughness this offseason?". Other than Petan and Ennis (both fiesty for midgets), what softness has he brought in?

He let all the tuff guys go - Polak, Komarov, Martin ...... imagine the tuffness with those guys!

 

[sparxx87]

I disagree that they are short on guys to do that, but opinions are opinions. Agree to disagree, but with the current management they seem to be leaning this way.

Marner showed it at the end of one of the games (4 i think), other guys stepped up their physicality as well.

I just think it is way easier to see a "physical" player get more points then he normally does then have a skilled player prove his physicality.

Fair enough.

Yeah, Marner isn’t a problem. He doesn’t move the needle much in a physical game, but he competes and will dive in front of shots to make a stop. No worries about Mitch Marner.


Their top guys aren’t the issue. The issue is that their complementary pieces are too similar. They need another Hyman to play with Matthews and Nylander. Johnsson is great, but he’s too similar. Kapanen, Brown? Too similar.

Trevor Moore moves the needle IMO. Ideally he’s in a bigger body, but he’s the type of guy whose going no matter what. He can play a bigger role next year if needed.

 

[Martin Skoula]

He let all the tuf guys go - Polak, Komarov, Martin ...... imagine the tuffness with those guys!

Just gotta get a tuff coach that isn't afraid to play them in the playoffs first! They do look tuff from the pressbox though, you can be sure there's no dirty hits going on up there.

On a serious note this team needs a Kreider and a Gudas, not a Simmonds and a McQuaid. I don't think anyone's going to say no to skilled speedy toughness regardless of how "new NHL" they are.

 

[sparxx87]

He let all the tuff guys go - Polak, Komarov, Martin ...... imagine the tuffness with those guys!

Laugh it up, but a prime aged Leo Komorov would be an excellent addition to the bottom 6 right now.

Martin and Polak can’t play. It seems they’re always used as extreme examples that nobody ever suggested.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Laugh it up, but a prime aged Leo Komorov would be an excellent addition to the bottom 6 right now.

Martin and Polak can’t play. It seems they’re always used as extreme examples that nobody ever suggested.

4 years 3 mill for Komarov, and people blame Dubas for letting him go? Especially with coach good pro at the helm?
And yes, people sure have suggested Martin, maybe not Polak so much

 

[sparxx87]

4 years 3 mill for Komarov, and people blame Dubas for letting him go? Especially with coach good pro at the helm?
And yes, people sure have suggested Martin, maybe not Polak so much

For that money the Leafs were right to let him walk. I’m talking strictly from a stylistic point of view.

Yeah, Martin can’t play so I’m not sure what use he has. Seeing Marner on his line last year shows that even magic can’t help him.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Laugh it up, but a prime aged Leo Komorov would be an excellent addition to the bottom 6 right now.

Martin and Polak can’t play. It seems they’re always used as extreme examples that nobody ever suggested.

Prime Komarov, sure. How long did prime Komarov last? Less than his current contract length. I don't think anyone would be upset with 20/20+ top pest Komarov in the lineup.

The 20 point guy who doesn't want to hit, forecheck, or agitate anymore isn't as desirable.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Fair enough.

Yeah, Marner isn’t a problem. He doesn’t move the needle much in a physical game, but he competes and will dive in front of shots to make a stop. No worries about Mitch Marner.


Their top guys aren’t the issue. The issue is that their complementary pieces are too similar. They need another Hyman to play with Matthews and Nylander. Johnsson is great, but he’s too similar. Kapanen, Brown? Too similar.

Trevor Moore moves the needle IMO. Ideally he’s in a bigger body, but he’s the type of guy whose going no matter what. He can play a bigger role next year if needed.

I can agree with different type of players.

Kapanen, Johnsson and brown were all very fusturating players in the playoffs, they are fast but don't really make or create plays, you can add Marleau to that list as well.

I understand Matthews has to produce with whoever is on his line (and he did have a good playoffs), but guys like Nylander need at least some support to help create plays.

 

[sparxx87]

I can agree with different type of players.

Kapanen, Johnsson and brown were all very fusturating players in the playoffs, they are fast but don't really make or create plays, you can add Marleau to that list as well.

I understand Matthews has to produce with whoever is on his line (and he did have a good playoffs), but guys like Nylander need at least some support to help create plays.

Exactly.

Hard nosed players are allowed to push the envelope a little more than in the regular season, and that’s why guys like Jake DeBrusk and Charlie Coyle seem to look better this time of year. Their ability to play on the edge can create havoc and force bounces for their team.

Having guys who aren’t your stars make these plays is a critical part of any team winning.

Go back and watch all 16 wins from the last 10-20 years. A noticeable difference in play but still one very common theme.