What is Plan B if the Senators don't sign Duchene or Stone?

[BondraTime]

Okay remember what you're saying now. I'd like to wager that whoever gives Duchene over 9M/year will start regretting that decision two-three years from now. "Market price" sure works well for teams who buy into it during free agency...

I'm not disagreeing with that...

Sure, you can wager that and you'd likely be right. Unfortunately for you that has nothing to do with his market value. That's, quite literally, what drives free agency, and now that Duchene has made it there, his market price goes upp substantially, as does what would be considered a fair offer.

A fair offer is something that both parties look at and make traction. An offer that isn't fair is one that benefits 1 party, in this case the Sens. "8x8, take it or leave it". Duchene would be leaving ~1 million per year on the table, along with huge signing bonuses that he gets in UFA.

If you know someone is offering 200 dollars for a bike that you want, and you offer 150, you can't say that it's a fair offer because that's how much you value it.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Their offer is fair. Duchene is not worth anything over 8.5. Asset management would dictate trading him while his stock is high. Obviously the UFA status hurts his value but I don't want a 33-year old Duchene making 9-10M (your idea of a "fair" offer) playing for the Senators 5 years from now.

Then just don't bother. If its not a market value offer and you're not willing to negotiate, then just save everyone's time and move on.

I don't go to the grocery store and offer 80 cents on the dollar without budging for groceries, no, I decide I want groceries, I decide what store I want to shop at, and I pay the sticker price, its how life works and Melnyk seems to think he gets to just assign his own value on players and somehow its a fair offer.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Hindsight. And they would be retaining a portion of the futures they gave up by trading him now.
Obviously the 1st rounder stings.

Zero hindsight needed.

They chose to "rebuild" mere months after trading for him when they apparently decided Karlsson was never going to stay and then traded Hoffman for peanuts.

They shot themselves in the foot now they have to stem the blood loss. Getting a late 1st round pick and a middling prospect would in no way be a good alternative to re-signing him.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Even Bob Mckenzine knows not to have faith in this pathetic organization.

 

[Alex1234]

It’s amazing that we still have a while to go before rock bottom.

And don't forget the basement of that rock bottom afterward

 

[Icelevel]

Just get this band aid off already.

Brown and Batherson replace duchene and stone

Formenton replaces boedker/dzingel

Tkachuk-White-Ryan
Dzingel-Brown-Batherson
Formenton-Tierney-Balcers
Paul-Pageau-Smith

Get some good stuff back for our superstars and I’m happy enough.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Then just don't bother. If its not a market value offer and you're not willing to negotiate, then just save everyone's time and move on.

I don't go to the grocery store and offer 80 cents on the dollar without budging for groceries, no, I decide I want groceries, I decide what store I want to shop at, and I pay the sticker price, its how life works and Melnyk seems to think he gets to just assign his own value on players and somehow its a fair offer.

You and Bondra seem to have a different idea of what negotiating is I guess...

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I wonder if we get news before the game today?

 

[Sensung]

I wonder if we get news before the game today?

What news are you expecting?
A trade or a re-signing?

 

[Tundraman]

What news are you expecting?
A trade or a re-signing?

I wouldn't bet on a re-sign based on Duchene's latest interview. He just said he doesn't have an answer for the team and knows he will probably be traded because teams can't give up players for nothing.

A guy who is on his 2nd team in less than 2 years and knows all there is to know by now about the Sens can't be that indecisive. It sounds to me like he's forcing Dorion's hand by delaying until Dorion has no choice.

I'll be shocked if he's not traded. Dorion had better be on the phone today and not sit on this!

btw) I still have higher hopes for Stone. At least for the next few days with him no news is good news.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I had a dream that I was in ctc and there was like a loose notebook lying around and I opened it and shit you not all that was written there was “absolute max- duchene & stone- 8.88 mil

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I had a dream that I was in ctc and there was like a loose notebook lying around and I opened it and **** you not all that was written there was “absolute max- duchene & stone- 8.88 mil

So 4.44M each?

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I wouldn't bet on a re-sign based on Duchene's latest interview. He just said he doesn't have an answer for the team and knows he will probably be traded because teams can't give up players for nothing.

A guy who is on his 2nd team in less than 2 years and knows all there is to know by now about the Sens can't be that indecisive. It sounds to me like he's forcing Dorion's hand by delaying until Dorion has no choice.

I'll be shocked if he's not traded. Dorion had better be on the phone today and not sit on this!

btw) I still have higher hopes for Stone. At least for the next few days with him no news is good news.

I don't think he's delaying so much as we are delaying to sell tickets.

This doesn't mean Duchene and his agent haven't attempted to use the same tactics they did with the Tavares negotiations, but if they did it likely did not work since Dorion has clearly set a deadline for Duchene signing. That's widely been reported. There was nothing stopping Dorion from setting that signing deadline earlier than two weeks before the trade deadline.

I think this team has held on to Stone and Duchene this late into the process because they want to sell tickets. Unless we are really fortunate, and Duchene agrees to a trade with an extension built in - which then results in us getting a big name young player like Nolan Patrick from the Flyers (who have been scouting us quite a bit), post trade deadline our star power will be nil. Ticket sales are already bad. Season ticket renewals will likely be an issue.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

“The biggest thing is if I don’t have an answer for them I would expect that they’ll make a move. You can’t really afford to let guys go for nothing anymore in this league, or probably ever; you couldn’t do that. I understand that’s the situation.
At the end of the day, I need to be sure of what I’m doing and it’s a process right now that I’m evaluating. It’s not an easy one because it’s the first time I’ve ever been in this situation. It’s really hard to make in mid-season. I’m taking my time, as much time as I have here, and I’ll see what happens. But we’re not at that point yet.”

“For sure, yeah. When I say I’m taking my time, I know I don’t have the luxury of six months here. But every day that goes by here is part of the evaluation process of the decision coming up. Like I said, I’ve really enjoyed playing here and it would be great if it works out.”
Matt Duchene, yesterday.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You and Bondra seem to have a different idea of what negotiating is I guess...

In hindsight, not my greatest analogy, but again if the ceiling on your "negotiating" is below market value to a player with all the leverage and you just dig your feet in the sand, there's no point, you're just negotiating in bad faith. Just move on and stop trying to make it look like you tried because you offered what you arbitrarily decided was "fair." Same as Karlsson's offer, its disingenuous bs that they know full well won't be accepted.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Then just don't bother. If its not a market value offer and you're not willing to negotiate, then just save everyone's time and move on.

I don't go to the grocery store and offer 80 cents on the dollar without budging for groceries, no, I decide I want groceries, I decide what store I want to shop at, and I pay the sticker price, its how life works and Melnyk seems to think he gets to just assign his own value on players and somehow its a fair offer.

So if your income is high, you can decide to shop at Whole Foods, and pay their prices, but if your job is such that you can't afford to shop there, then you shop at No Frills, as their prices are within your budget.


Duchene knows he'll get "Whole Food" offers from large Market teams, when he becomes an UFA, and knows that Ottawa can only offer him a "No Frills" extension.


The Offers from a NHL team, reflects the revenues of their market.

 

[Sensung]

In hindsight, not my greatest analogy, but again if your ceiling is below market value to a player with all the leverage and you just dig your feet in the sand, there's no point, you're just negotiating in bad faith. Just move on and stop trying to make it look like you tried because you offered what you arbitrarily decided was "fair." Same as Karlsson's offer, its disingenuous bs.

It is entirely disingenuous, but as we see here, it plays well to a segment of the fanbase. Until that stops, the Sens will continue with this Modus Operandi.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It is entirely disingenuous, but as we see here, it plays well to a segment of the fanbase. Until that stops, the Sens will continue with this Modus Operandi.

Yup. We're down to about 5 at this point though.

Most have learned they're a bunch of liars. History eventually teaches you something, but some need a few hundred years to read it in a text book to figure it out.

 

[Tundraman]

I don't think he's delaying so much as we are delaying to sell tickets.

This doesn't mean Duchene and his agent haven't attempted to use the same tactics they did with the Tavares negotiations, but if they did it likely did not work since Dorion has clearly set a deadline for Duchene signing. That's widely been reported. There was nothing stopping Dorion from setting that signing deadline earlier than two weeks before the trade deadline.

I think this team has held on to Stone and Duchene this late into the process because they want to sell tickets. Unless we are really fortunate, and Duchene agrees to a trade with an extension built in - which then results in us getting a big name young player like Nolan Patrick from the Flyers (who have been scouting us quite a bit), post trade deadline our star power will be nil. Ticket sales are already bad. Season ticket renewals will likely be an issue.

Duchene himself said he hasn't given an answer so we know that side of the story. What we don't know is why Dorion is boxing himself into a tight window when he has 3 UFA and potentially one RFA to deal or decide upon.

The only way I see a sign and trade in Duchene's future is if it's to one of the top teams on his list. Again based on what he said it leads me to believe that he wouldn't agree to do that for a 2nd tier team when it's clear he wants to play on a winning team. I can imagine that part of the delay in the Duchene camp is that he and his agent are evaluating potential destinations. I don't know if informal back door talks between agents and teams can ever be fully controlled by the league. Before the July 1 deadline was moved back for talking to UFA, teams used to sign players to complex deals a few minutes into the free agency period. That looked suspicious so all the league did is move the talking period back a few days to cover everyone's tracks.

If the Sens are banking that a delay on their part will sell more tickets then someone doesn't understand the market. Not knowing makes things worst. I also don't see Duchene as that big a draw on his own. For the balance of the season youth and enthusiasm as in the pesky Sens would do more to sell tickets than more of the same.

Another reason I thought the Sens might be delaying was to maximize the points so as not to finish near the bottom because it would look bad. A bit of face saving by the GM. That didn't work too well if it was in any way a consideration. Also it would be foolish to make decisions based on the Colorado pick!

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

So if your income is high, you can decide to shop at Whole Foods, and pay their prices, but if your job is such that you can't afford to shop there, then you shop at No Frills, as their prices are within your budget.


Duchene knows he'll get "Whole Food" offers from large Market teams, when he becomes an UFA, and knows that Ottawa can only offer him a "No Frills" extension.


The Offers from a NHL team, reflects the revenues of their market.

No, you stick to your superstore garbage and don't waste your time going to whole foods with $5 in your pocket pretending you can buy a $30 organic, non gmo, ed on by a horse granola bar.

 

[Upgrayedd]

And just think at least 1.5-2 more years minimum of daily L's hung on the team on and off the ice if Eugene sticks around...almost halfway to rock bottom lol

 

[BatherSeason]

Even Bob Mckenzine knows not to have faith in this pathetic organization.

My question is why did it take so long for any of the insiders to discuss their "pessimism" with this org?? If they guys who actually cover the NHL began speaking up, maybe that would help speed up a sale. Instead, it seems like the commish, the media are trying to protect the fanbase from big bad Uncle Euge.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

And just think at least 1.5-2 more years minimum of daily L's hung on the team on and off the ice if Eugene sticks around...almost halfway to rock bottom lol

It never ends. We just lose the next set of stars when the time comes.

 

[BatherSeason]

I still have higher hopes for Stone. At least for the next few days with him no news is good news

Stone jumped from 45 to 25 on the TSN Trade bait list, so its trending more towards a trade. I wouldn't hold out all that much hope.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

My question is why did it take so long for any of the insiders to discuss their "pessimism" with this org?? If they guys who actually cover the NHL began speaking up, maybe that would help speed up a sale. Instead, it seems like the commish, the media are trying to protect the fanbase from big bad Uncle Euge.

Some seemed to be fooled by the Karlsson trade being a thing that came honestly.

As history repeats itself, there'll be too much to deny eventually, but Tsn has the tv deal, so i think that's why they tow the line, they don't want to lynch a product they essentially sell and Bettman will always tow the line publicly. The Citizen sports section and Tsn1200 only really exist because of the Senators, so again, they're treading lightly. The only honesty about Melnyk being at fault is from guys like Kypreos on Sportsnet and out of market radio that doesn't have any dependence.

They want people to care, but they don't want them to check out, so they'll keep fluffing it up.